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SuperOxide
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Has any hobbyists ordered chemicals from Sigma-Aldrich?
Since I've started chemistry as a hobby, one of the main things I've wanted to make was Brooker’s Merocyanine (aka MOED), which I found out about
from a NileRed video (and the published paper on it). However, a few of its precursors are a little difficult to synthesize (for my skill level) and even more difficult to
find/buy online - Not because they're illegal, but rather just because they're difficult to find:
The 4-Methylpyridine I just saw is available on ebay, but it's not too cheap (25g for $19.31, which isn't far off from some of Sigmas prices), and
I'll give it a shot. But the pyrrolidine and 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde I can't find on ebay or Amazon. From what I gather, it's nearly impossible to buy
chemicals from Sigma unless you're a college, institution, or a company. But it looks like NileRed is able to order from them? As well as some other
youtubers (eg: Ben from Applied Science).
Apparently they will take your order, bill you, then a week or so later send you an email about a cancellation and a refund. Has anyone had this
happen to them?
[Edited on 8-8-2021 by SuperOxide]
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karlos³
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Yeah, via resellers, but here in europe.
How is that american well known reseller called, they usually do that even in small amounts?
You should write those guys and get a quote for the prices for your respective compounds in the respective quantities(also get quotes from TCI, fisher
and ABCR, those are often cheaper!), tell them the CAS and where you want it from preferably.
Thats how it usual goes.
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Tdep
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Quote: Originally posted by SuperOxide  | From what I gather, it's nearly impossible to buy chemicals from Sigma unless you're a college, institution, or a company. But it looks like NileRed
is able to order from them? As well as some other youtubers (eg: Ben from Applied Science).
[Edited on 8-8-2021 by SuperOxide] |
Yeah that's my experience, but it's important to not think about NileRed as a hobby person. NileRed is a business now, paying tax and hiring employees
and having a business address etc... that's how he's able to buy things as a company now. He is one
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Syn the Sizer
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One though is the 4-HO-benzaldehyde is hard to find, there is a bit of an idea for a route to it. You could nitrate toluene, isolate the para isomer.
Reduce to the amine, react with NaNO2 and HCl to for the azo compound. React with NaOH for 4-HO-toluene, than Etard reaction to the aldehyde. But that
is a bit of a process. There are other routes which may also be more desirable just to not have to deal with chromyl chloride.
if you can get your hand on worm medication for dogs piperidine is often and active ingredient there.
Also, as a side shot could piperidine be synthesized from cadaverine? If one could decarb l-lysine, they would be left with cadaverine which could
possibly be made into piperidine...
Syn'
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Fyndium
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There are a couple of vendors for reagents on this subforum, who can get almost anything. I've ordered from Mario multiple times and have been very
happy.
Sigma does not sell to individuals, period. You will need a legitimate-looking, registered company, and even then they might consider not to sell, if
they deem you too small time, and I wouldn't be surprised that ordering certain stuff will make them blacklist you at once.
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teodor
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I will just repeat what I said before. I think buying from companies who don't want to sell chemicals for individuals works against amateur chemistry.
And making video dedicated for individuals/amateurs which contains demonstration of those companies products is just silly. Your subscribers will not
be able to buy it. You don't support amateur chemistry this way.
Let's support companies who DO SELL. They always have ability to advertise their products here by the way. Or through youtube videos, contacting
people who make the videos.
Of course Sigma produce a big number of different compounds of first class quality. But I believe any person (for example somebody who is making
video) can just do rebranding. But they do exactly opposite things. They show to everybody that they CAN buy from Sigma. But this create a false
reality. Those people who show on their video bottles with Sigma label are not from amateurs camp. Period.
[Edited on 9-8-2021 by teodor]
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SuperOxide
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| Quote: Originally posted by Syn the Sizer | | One though is the 4-HO-benzaldehyde is hard to find, there is a bit of an idea for a route to it. You could nitrate toluene, isolate the para isomer.
Reduce to the amine, react with NaNO2 and HCl to for the azo compound. React with NaOH for 4-HO-toluene, than Etard reaction to the aldehyde. But that
is a bit of a process. There are other routes which may also be more desirable just to not have to deal with chromyl chloride. |
Interesting... I have 19.09g of p-NT from when I was going after the o-NT. So perhaps this is a starting route. With only 19g, I'm bound to run out
after messing up a few runs, lol. I may explore this route.
| Quote: Originally posted by teodor | I will just repeat what I said before. I think buying from companies who don't want to sell chemicals for individuals works against amateur chemistry.
And making video dedicated for individuals/amateurs which contains demonstration of those companies products is just silly. Your subscribers will not
be able to buy it. You don't support amateur chemistry this way.
Let's support companies who DO SELL. They always have ability to advertise their products here by the way. Or through youtube videos, contacting
people who make the videos.
Of course Sigma produce a big number of different compounds of first class quality. But I believe any person (for example somebody who is making
video) can just do rebranding. But they do exactly opposite things. They show to everybody that they CAN buy from Sigma. But this create a false
reality. Those people who show on their video bottles with Sigma label are not from amateurs camp. Period. |
I agree, 100%. I've been getting stuff from Backyard Science 2000 lately (amazing chem provider!), but he doesn't have any of the three chemicals I've
listed. He doesn't have the ability to order from sigma either. I'll look into other providers here on the forums to see if they have any.
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Texium
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I don’t know, teodor, I think you’re taking it a bit extreme there. There are ways of getting chemicals from Sigma and other big companies without
ordering them yourself. I had a few things from them before I worked in a professional lab that I got secondhand, or bought from an aforementioned
reseller. Often there’s a bit of luck involved, but it certainly isn’t impossible for the amateur to indirectly acquire nice reagent grade
chemicals. I don’t think anyone should be shunned and called an anti-home-chemist because they were able to get their hands on a hard to find
chemical.
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teodor
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Yes, you are right, Texium. I am a bit in my extreme mood today (because of some obstacles). But sometimes this is a best chance to say something in a
bright way.
So, I think having chemicals from Sigma is not a problem for an amateur. Neither sharing these chemicals with other amateurs. Or from professionals to
amateurs. I see no problems here.
What I see as a problem that in a situation when the global society plays against chemical amateurs we can relay only on our small amateur society to
support each other.
That means we probably should support those chemical vendors who share our values. Those shops/brands who sell to responsible individuals and those
individuals who share chemicals with other members of our society. They need our support.
Sigma is a company which doesn't require our support.
Do I need to bring evidence that this company doesn't want to support our small scientific society?
Well. They are not limited by any legal law or obstacles to sell (most) chemicals for us but they MADE their internal laws and artificial obstacles.
Its not me who is on extreme part here. I really believe they are some creators of this culture which makes our interests looking somehow even
unlawful. They have a lot of power to do so. They have this power and they are probably able to use a small part of it to create some collaboration
program between, let say, university and researchers who is not part of any university but willing to buy good quality chemicals. They can connect
their buyers. But they have another very definitive way of thinking about who are their clients and who are not. That's why I have my definitive way
of thinking about who are vendors of chemicals for us and who are not.
I don't talk about videos which use Sigma bottles accidentally. There are some videos which looks just like Sigma promotional stuff. It's better to
promote somebody else. I think we deserve our own brand who can sell legally to amateurs stuff which is legal for amateur usage. Sigma by their
practice declares that everything which it makes is illegal to use by us.
[Edited on 9-8-2021 by teodor]
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katyushaslab
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Ligma won't sell to individuals, and you often have to jump through a fair few hoops as a business to buy from them.
Luckily, there are plenty of resellers on the forum who are more than happy to sort you out with anything you would like. I've used some, and always
had a good experience.
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karlos³
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What's ligma?  
Thanks for that, I will start referencing to sigma now by this name as well, that's really great 
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CouchHatter
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I bought a 1L sep funnel from sigma in 2018 as an individual. Maybe things change, or they treat glassware differently. I just wrote them an email
detailing my home lab setup, chemical storage solutions, and why I wanted the funnel.
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SuperOxide
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| Quote: Originally posted by CouchHatter | | I bought a 1L sep funnel from sigma in 2018 as an individual. Maybe things change, or they treat glassware differently. I just wrote them an email
detailing my home lab setup, chemical storage solutions, and why I wanted the funnel. |
you went through that
for a sep funnel? Lol. Why not buy it on Amazon or ebay? Seems odd.
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karlos³
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I am even more interested in the price of a 1l sep funnel from ligma aldrich back in 2018?
Thats quite large... and they are quite expensive... 25$ from china I think.
75$ at least from ligma(oh man how I love using this as their name!) I would suspect.
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Fyndium
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I bought my equipment very originally from German supplier called Carl-Roth back in 2007. Their equipment was expensive, 500mL drop funnel with
compensator was 100€.
Later I purchased an used Schott 2L sep from eBay for 80€. This has been my workhorse for a decade now.
Chemland sells 5L sep funnel for 100€ and 10L for 200€.
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SuperOxide
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| Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium | I bought my equipment very originally from German supplier called Carl-Roth back in 2007. Their equipment was expensive, 500mL drop funnel with
compensator was 100€.
Later I purchased an used Schott 2L sep from eBay for 80€. This has been my workhorse for a decade now.
Chemland sells 5L sep funnel for 100€ and 10L for 200€. |
The chemical supply place down town from me has a nice big 4L sep funnel.
I went there when I was just getting into chemistry, so seeing a 4L sep funnel was pretty awesome to me:
I don't remember the price, but I remember it was pretty good. I have a feeling he had been holding onto it for some time and was trying to get rid of
it. I was like "whoa... that sep funnel is huge..." "Yeah. Would you like to buy it???" "Nah" "Oh.... ok... ::sadface::" lol.
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SuperOxide
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| Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ | Yeah, via resellers, but here in europe.
How is that american well known reseller called, they usually do that even in small amounts?
You should write those guys and get a quote for the prices for your respective compounds in the respective quantities(also get quotes from TCI, fisher
and ABCR, those are often cheaper!), tell them the CAS and where you want it from preferably.
Thats how it usual goes. |
Did you forget to copy/paste the name of the reseller?
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karlos³
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No, as its not of use for you since you're in the states, they don't ship outside of the EU.
But I remembered the american resellers name!
I meant the one called chemsavers, contact them per mail and tell them what(with CAS), the supplier you want it from and the amount, and they'll give
you a price quotation then.
Also, don't waste time explaining what you want it for if they aren't asking.
People from here, like na-cyanide, mario840, and some others, could get it for you too from sigma.
But you're better off if you first compare prices, as ligma(hehe ) is not known
for its low prices.
TCI is almost always less costly, and also often has stuff in even smaller packaging sizes(but of course, much more costly... ).
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SuperOxide
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| Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ | But I remembered the American resellers name!
I meant the one called chemsavers, contact them per mail and tell them what(with CAS), the supplier you want it from and the amount, and they'll give
you a price quotation then.
Also, don't waste time explaining what you want it for if they aren't asking. |
Good tip. I just sent them an
email. I've purchased some of their chemicals before over Amazon, always happy with their quality. It would be great if I could buy it from them.
| Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ | People from here, like na-cyanide, mario840, and some others, could get it for you too from sigma.
But you're better off if you first compare prices, as ligma(hehe ) is not known
for its low prices.
TCI is almost always less costly, and also often has stuff in even smaller packaging sizes(but of course, much more costly... ).
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That's true. I realize they're probably very pricey. I'll try to use them as a last resort.
Thanks!
P.S. There is a local chemical supply place close to me (which is the one I mentioned above with the pic of the sep funnel), and I will give them a
call today to see if they can order any of these. But I remember that even though they are a legitimate business, they weren't able to get something
as simple as benzene, so Im doubtful that they could get any of the three chemicals I stated above.
[Edited on 10-8-2021 by SuperOxide]
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SuperOxide
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| Quote: Originally posted by karlos³ | But I remembered the american resellers name!
I meant the one called chemsavers, contact them per mail and tell them what(with CAS), the supplier you want it from and the amount, and they'll give
you a price quotation then.
Also, don't waste time explaining what you want it for if they aren't asking. |
I heard back from Chemsavers already. Even though these 3 chemicals aren't at all illegal, restricted or even monitored, I'm required to fill out
their intended use form and give them a copy of my ID. Hmmm. Odd.
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SuperOxide
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Got the shipment in from Chemsavers :-)
  
- 100g of 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde ($49.00)
- 100mL of Pyrrolidine ($36)
- 500mL of 4-Methylpyridine ($63 - which btw is way wayyyyy more than I will probably ever use, but when it's 25mL for $30 or 500mL for $63... May as
well pay 2x and get 20x as much)
Pretty much all of the above is way more than I need it for since I only plan on doing a few runs of this synth, but I hate buying such small amounts
of a chemical, especially when you get much better deals on just moderate amounts, and the shipping is usually the same.
I haven't used them yet, Mikhail (ChemSavers president) was very reasonable and easy to deal with. And these prices are actually pretty decent as
well.
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macckone
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The 'know your customer' regulations basically force chemical suppliers to actually ID their customers.
Not sure what would trigger that on this order, possibly the 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde.
That is used in drug synthesis but it is also used to make vanillin, so it isn't a listed chemical but could be on a watch list of some kind.
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SuperOxide
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| Quote: Originally posted by macckone | The 'know your customer' regulations basically force chemical suppliers to actually ID their customers.
Not sure what would trigger that on this order, possibly the 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde.
That is used in drug synthesis but it is also used to make vanillin, so it isn't a listed chemical but could be on a watch list of some kind.
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What drug is 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde used to make? I had a feeling that was the one, but I couldn't find out why. I tried to ask which chemical required
my ID and he seemed to ignore the question, lol.
Regardless, I now have everything I need (except for the ethanol, I need to distill/purify/dry that). I think I may make the 1,4-dimethylpyrinidium
iodide, then split that into two equal batches and see how the pyrrolidine as a catalyst compares to the triethylamine (which I also have).
[Edited on 25-8-2021 by SuperOxide]
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S.C. Wack
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To evade certain laws, pyrrolidine versions of drugs have been sold on the street (PCP being first is at the top of the list and this drug was banned
years ago), making it a listed precursor chemical in some jurisdictions.
On topic, I suspect that the unique question-thread of ordering from E. Merck-Sigma-Aldrich-Fluka-Riedel-de Haën-Supelco-Millipore has come up here
before, and if there was some "weird trick" to get them to send chemicals to residences/nobodys/bomb/drug/poison manufacturers, no one would ruin it
by telling you.
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SuperOxide
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| Quote: Originally posted by S.C. Wack | | To evade certain laws, pyrrolidine versions of drugs have been sold on the street (PCP being first is at the top of the list and this drug was banned
years ago), making it a listed precursor chemical in some jurisdictions. |
Interesting. I got the impression that the 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde was what required the IUF (intended use form) and ID. But I suppose I could be wrong.
Also, the pyrrolidine smells pretty bad, but nothing near as bad as the 4-methylpyridine, lol. I literally gagged when I was pouring some into the
graduation cylinder. That's a first.
I finally got around to making the 1,4-dimethylpyridinium iodide:
  
I thought it failed at first because of how dark it got (I was expecting it to stay yellow or slightly orange, not dark red), and nothing precipitated
out after everything was mixed or during the reflux. But after the reflux and I let it cool, I could see some Schlieren patterns in the mix, so I
stuck it in the freezer, and got a hell of a lot of product. I still need to do the workup/recryst before moving onto the actual MOED.
In regards to the 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde, it looks like I can find some other uses for that. The raspberry ketone synth uses it, and it requires some
hydrogenation as well which is something I've been wanting to try.
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