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Author: Subject: Too good to be true?
Triflic Acid
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[*] posted on 12-8-2021 at 06:19
Too good to be true?


Found this patent a few days ago from china: https://patents.google.com/patent/CN1209290C/en

Claims that you can make anhydrous aluminum chloride from an aqueous solution of the hydrate by just adding huge amounts of ethanol/methanol/ethylene glycol so that the concentration is above 75%. I don't know. Looks a little too good to be true. I might try this sometime soon, to verify the claim.




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DraconicAcid
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[*] posted on 12-8-2021 at 07:00


I don't believe it for a moment. You'd surely end up with an alcoholate, especially in the case of ethylene glycol (which would chelate).

[Edited on 12-8-2021 by DraconicAcid]




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Fyndium
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[*] posted on 12-8-2021 at 07:59


It would not have went unseen for almost 20 years in the scientific - especially clandestine - community, anhydrous AlCl3 being so useful reagent. What would cause the hydrate to separate, where in ordinary conditions the molecule will decompose before the hydrate?

Unless I have to eat my hat in this case, I must say how silly it is that many patents and research papers actually go to publication without anyone verifying the results.
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karlos³
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[*] posted on 12-8-2021 at 09:27


I would eat a broom with mustard if that works.
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[*] posted on 12-8-2021 at 17:23


Well, that's German mustard, so you wouldn't be able to taste the broom anyway.

(I'm convinced that German sausage-makers are ashamed of the taste of their products, because they won't let you try one without covering up all and any flavour with Senf.)




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Triflic Acid
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[*] posted on 12-8-2021 at 19:13


@karlos, I might just commit scientific fraud to watch that :P



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[*] posted on 14-8-2021 at 09:53


Funny enough I tried this in this video:

https://youtu.be/ksIXZjbSOkQ

It work exactly as well as you would expect.
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Amos
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[*] posted on 14-8-2021 at 11:03


You could tell this was fake quite easily by mixing alcohol with a few percent water added to a solid sample of anhydrous AlCl3. If this reaction was even remotely possible, the two wouldn't react. My adventures intentionally making hydrated aluminium chloride as a fine yellow solid proved fruitless, as I couldn't even remove excess solution from the crystals by washing it with ethanol or ispropanol. I think if anything this would be a good method for drying alcohols, not the other way around.
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karlos³
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[*] posted on 14-8-2021 at 15:08


Quote: Originally posted by DraconicAcid  
Well, that's German mustard, so you wouldn't be able to taste the broom anyway.

(I'm convinced that German sausage-makers are ashamed of the taste of their products, because they won't let you try one without covering up all and any flavour with Senf.)

I am about 1/7th offended and agree for the other 6/7ies :D

The countrie is large, and there are many varieties of bratwurst.... although, if I smell a charcoal grill with bratwurst, I'm tempted to try them out....
(Mr Hank Hill, please spare me and my family... please... we couldn't afford propane :P)
Mostly they are disappointing!

If you get a good bratwurst in germany, you will see only a speckle of "senf", at most, they will ask if its either "catsup"(Mr Burns) or mustard, if you say nothing and get nothing, just a piece of bun.....
Then its a great bratwurst and the makers are not ashamed to show :D

Honestly, I think what they export is of far lower quality than the european bratwurst we enjoy :o

@Draconic acid. if you ever manage to visit germany during december, I would feel tempted to present you the greatest bratwurst in germany(according to my own opinion) in Braunschweig, Niedersachsen :)
Fichtelmann Bratwurst.... I had not a single one in two years, and honestly, sometimes I dream of their great bratwurst's :D
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[*] posted on 14-8-2021 at 15:41


I'm not big on bratwurst, but I do love rauchwurst. Any time I ordered one in Sachsen, I would have to say "Ohne Senf!!" as soon as I had finished breathing the word "Wurst", or they'd be quicker dousing the sausage with the stuff than a man blinking. Sometimes they'd have it drenched before I finished saying "Ohne".



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[*] posted on 14-8-2021 at 15:55


Sachsen! I moved there two years ago :D
Its not as good as thuringian bratwurst though :)

I understand their local need to douse them with senf... local bratwurst is not really good.... :P
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[*] posted on 16-8-2021 at 13:55


Try it. Cautiously. I once asked on this forum what effect mixing diethyl ether would have on gold chloride in aqua regia. Everyone was of the opinion that it was dangerous and would explode.

In reality there is no real reaction; they were completely off by miles, and the gold chloride in fact preferentially dissolves in the diethyl ether instead after some shaking, leaving behind pure AR and gold chloride in ether. See the slogan: "Amateur Experimentalism".

[Edited on 16-8-2021 by crestind]
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[*] posted on 18-8-2021 at 13:31


For the sake of argument lets say it works and you get 2% anhydrous AlCl3.
From a commercial perspective that is useless.
From a home lab perspective that might be useful.

Until someone replicates the patent claims, I would assume it doesn't work as intended.
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[*] posted on 22-8-2021 at 05:39


Awww. I read Chinese patent applications all of the time. Mostly, they are ill translated and unintelligible.

I'm inclined to think they are meant to provide plausible deniability. Nope! We will not pay royalties, to the actual inventor of the XYZ-process, because we didn't use that foreign process. We used our own unique patented process instead!

Lots of Patented Processes don't actually work. I guess the applicants had their reasons for applying.
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[*] posted on 22-8-2021 at 05:51


Easy enough to make anhydrous AlCl3. Just capture some Cl2 in a covered flask. Drop a piece of heated Aluminum foil into the flask. The foil ignites in the Chlorine gas, and Poof----> AlCl3.
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[*] posted on 22-8-2021 at 08:13


Did exactly that, but on a more controlled scale yesterday.



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