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Author: Subject: ANSU mixture questions.
JohnyT56
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ANSU mixture questions.

So i've been experimenting with energetics for quite a while now and made some interesting stuff. I want to scale it up to detonations bigger than 3-5 grams and the only explosives i have acces to that can easily be bulked are ammonium nitrate based. I don't have acces to nitromethane or aluminium powder, and after a lot of reserach i've come to the conclusion that the ammonium nitrate sugar dynamon mixture would be the next best choice, as its quite a bit more sensitive than ANFO and a little bit more powerful as well. This is the part i'm wondering about, just how sensitive is it. I assume there is nothing more to it than dry mixing coffee milled ammonium nitrate with powdered sugar in the correct quantities? I have my own reliable ETN blasting cap. I plan on starting with a small oxygen balanced ANSU 85:15 charge of around 500g and according to what other people used 12g of plastiscized ETN should be enough to detonate it which seems odd. I expected it to need a bigger booster. It will not be heavily confined, only in a small plastic jar. Will this really be enough to achieve full detonation?
B(a)P
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In industry the boosters they use for ANFO, which is typically a PETN TNT mix pressed to a density of ~1.6 g/cm3, is nearly the size of the main charge you are proposing. The recommended minimum booster charge is around 400 g depending on the main charge mix being used. To establish a blast front you are going to need more than 500 g if your intention is to have it unconfined. How much research did you say you had done? I would concede that there is not a wealth of information out there on ammonium nitrate sugar mix as it is typically a go to for terrorist organisations, but there is a wealth of available information on ANFO.
IMHO 12 g of ETN stuck into the side of a loose pile of ammonium nitrate and sugar will end up as a cloud of ammonium nitrate and sugar. It is worth noting that jumping from 5 g to 500 g is not trivial.
JohnyT56
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I know there is not nearly enough info available, but all youtube videos i've seen with ANSU use a small booster. There's a video of a 30kg detonation with only 50g plastic EN as a booster. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Ulwz_4grU
I believe it is a lot more sensitive and easy to set off than ANFO. I've reado nthis forum that someone detonated like 1 kilogram with only 5 grams AP in a normal cap.
Laboratory of Liptakov
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The sugar is condition ? If you can use for example resin from the Pine, sensitivity will much better. 1g ETN will enough.
The resin is diluted in alcohol and mixed with AN 90 / resin 10. And evaporate ethanol.
Final density is recommend 0,8 - 1,0 g/cc.

Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023)
JohnyT56
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What do you mean pine resin, i guess i could use that if i find it anywhere but I don't think anyone sells it. Do you mean the pine essential oil or those solid chunks like beeswax and then dissolve them in alchohol? Will sensitivity be too bad with sucrose though? I prefer to use that because it is easier to find and a 12g booster is not that much if its enough.
unionised
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Not my field, but I'm guessing at this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosin
JohnDoe13
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Just use commercial pine turpentine. Simply RED discovered this mixture years ago and shared the information with me. Very good composition with very good sensitivity.

[Edited on 6-5-2022 by JohnDoe13]
JohnyT56
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Can you share some more details about this mixture and how you prepare the charge? I can't find anything about it on the forums. Just mix the anhydrous ammonium nitrate powder with diluted pine turpentine with ethanol or isporpyl and let the alchohol evaporate? The ratio after evaporation should be 90:10 by weight? How sensitive is this composition exactly is it cap sensitive? If it can detonate with under 3-4 grams ETN i can just make a bigger blasting cap and not bother making a booster.
JohnDoe13
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No ethanol. Just 5 % turpentine. Of course small booster is needed. It's ANFO with better initiation sensitivity and performance.

The information is already in this forum by the way.

Bigger blasting cap is nonsense.

[Edited on 6-5-2022 by JohnDoe13]
simply RED
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That was more than 10 years ago... Anyway, best mixture was maybe 5% turpentine and 3% Al powder (flake if possible).

Always did this with 100g (or more) TNT equivalent booster.

[Edited on 6-5-2022 by simply RED]

When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead...
JohnyT56
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Ah okay right yeah no way i can do a 100g TNT equivalent booster since i'm quite limited on recources and i don't have acces to aluminium powder. If that's required for your pine mixture then i'll just stick with the sugar mixture. I'll increase it to a 20g ETN booster for the 500g and hope that its enough. I can also add 1% copper oxide as i've read it increases sensitivity. I really think it'll be enough of a booster if that guy on youtube managed to detonate 30kg with 50g ETN unconfined. Ammonium nitrate+glycerin ANFO is really insensitive right?
MineMan
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There is so much information here. And there is even research papers on AN compounds. I have even seen AN DDT in the open! No joke.

Anyways. I don’t really understand your project and goals. And I don’t see how I can support it if it’s not research. But this discussion is so confusing considering the information available on the forum.

Also, ANFO sucks. Why even talk about it here… unless your breaking rock with cheap explosives. Anfo is used because it’s cheap…. Not because it’s great. Talking about it outside of designing a blast is ridiculous. Not to mention the best blasts use blends…

Dynamite was better than anfo, but it’s all aboot costs.

But if your that interested in a do there are jobs in California where you can make $90 an hour working with it with no prior experience JohnyT56 Harmless Posts: 8 Registered: 7-8-2019 Member Is Offline No one mentioned ANFO in this conversation, only "ANFO" with pine oil instead of fuel oil which is supposedly better. Anyways, there's no real "purpose" to this project other than it being a fun hobby. I want to do a relatively cheap medium scale detonation and wanted to ask some tips about it here. MineMan International Hazard Posts: 910 Registered: 29-3-2015 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by JohnyT56 No one mentioned ANFO in this conversation, only "ANFO" with pine oil instead of fuel oil which is supposedly better. Anyways, there's no real "purpose" to this project other than it being a fun hobby. I want to do a relatively cheap medium scale detonation and wanted to ask some tips about it here. A lot of it is common sense and really thought experiments. If you model it out in your head you will be shocked how your brian acts like a super computer and can model stuff. Anyways. Low density AN mixtures with a fuel oil are not that much of an interest. Water gel would be far more interesting. Point being please doing something novel or interesting Esther than post on a topic that has been discussed already. Or read what has been posted. papaya International Hazard Posts: 594 Registered: 4-4-2013 Member Is Offline Mood: reactive OK, I think this is an opportunity when I can share one of my discovered AN compositions (as far as I know no one before reported about this mixture, I've testesd it 2 years ago), that requiers NO boosters(just a 0.6-1g cap), is quite powerful (much higher brisance than ANFO type things, NON-hygroscopic,detonates completeli in 16mm diameter plastic tube, and easy to preparae. Composition is - 6:1 mass ratio of Ammonium nitrate to MSM (methyl sulfonyl methane, food suppliment, or simply DMSO2). This mixture form an eutectic solution at 140° C - meaning they melt and dissolve in each other, without any decomposition reaction at that temp. Then the melt is solidified and crushed into powder. Done! Ready to use. Quantities as small as 7-10grams are reliably detonated. DMSO2 being less water soluble renders mixture less hygroscopic than pure AN! Also it contains sulfur in molecule which somehow sensitizes AN compositions. Just try it. Very powerful, also replacing some of MSM with Al powder makes it even MORE poweful(completely destroying steel plates apart at 50% stoicometric Al). Hopefully no one is going to patent it based on this post. MineMan International Hazard Posts: 910 Registered: 29-3-2015 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by papaya OK, I think this is an opportunity when I can share one of my discovered AN compositions (as far as I know no one before reported about this mixture, I've testesd it 2 years ago), that requiers NO boosters(just a 0.6-1g cap), is quite powerful (much higher brisance than ANFO type things, NON-hygroscopic,detonates completeli in 16mm diameter plastic tube, and easy to preparae. Composition is - 6:1 mass ratio of Ammonium nitrate to MSM (methyl sulfonyl methane, food suppliment, or simply DMSO2). This mixture form an eutectic solution at 140° C - meaning they melt and dissolve in each other, without any decomposition reaction at that temp. Then the melt is solidified and crushed into powder. Done! Ready to use. Quantities as small as 7-10grams are reliably detonated. DMSO2 being less water soluble renders mixture less hygroscopic than pure AN! Also it contains sulfur in molecule which somehow sensitizes AN compositions. Just try it. Very powerful, also replacing some of MSM with Al powder makes it even MORE poweful(completely destroying steel plates apart at 50% stoicometric Al). Hopefully no one is going to patent it based on this post. That is very impressive. This post will serve as your IP. As far as a patent MSM is expensive… at least for supplements.$30 a pound. Unless it is \$1-3 I don’t see it happening. Also, unless it gives better results than emulsion. Maybe it does? If you cast it the AN mixture should be at a density of 1.6-1.75. Why crush it into powder?? Perhaps this hits 7kms?
papaya
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I have tried melt cast mixture about 20g in a 20mm diameter plastic tube, two attempts both failed. First was 0.8g cap only, second one was 5g of the same composotion crushed powder on main charge. Second one only powder part went ddt, but main charge still failed. Maybe not enough diameter or needs a stronger booster than that - Still, even in powder form it is not like ETN or RDX in brisance, in terms of brisance, it is not surprize that was not enough for purpose. But I hope someone on this forum may be interested enough to get the melt cast work! Improve! Thats why I share. One improvement is partially substituting MSM with Al as I mentioned - not only makes it more powerful, also serves as an anti-cakeing agent, i.e. physical stability.. On commercial usage side- fortunately NO, one of the products is toxic sulfur dioxide which will not allow them to use this as blasting agent.

[Edited on 7-5-2022 by papaya]
MineMan
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Can you please keep in touch on here? I don’t see why it cannot detonate. With a strong 3 gram cap
papaya
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I will report IF some day I go for it and retry, I've run out of my MSM, which I synthesized from DMSO, whisch itself is a liquid fuel to consider. Also now I lack of strong booster compound like ETN. So anybody is free to test and hopefully report here. Main reason of failure generally is too high density in AN/ fuel (generally any oxidizer/fuel which a!one are not HEs) compsositions, unless you make it somehow too sensitive. BTW, when I talked about addition of Al powder it was NOT into the melt, but afterwards (keeping OB=0). However now I Think that if Al can be added directly into the melt and then cast - thah potentially CAN be a thing!
JohnyT56
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Papaya, your methyl sulfonyl methane mixture can detonate unconfined in just a plastic jar? If it can, without a booster then that sounds great. The supplement is not available here, but i can easily order it from ebay, https://www.ebay.com/itm/193977618851?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&a...
So to get things right, you mix the ammonium nitrate and the methyl sulfonyl methane 85:15 as dry powders first and then heat them on electric stove until the mixture melts at 140C and then you pour it somewhere and crush it in a coffee mill after solidifying? I'll try it first as a powder and if it detonates, i might try the melt cast mixture as well without crushing it with a bigger booster like 20 grams ETN 500 grams base charge. I'll keep you updated and post pictures if it ends up working. Interesting composition by the way, how did you end up finding it?
papaya
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Exactly as you wrote, just more precise calculation gives 86:14 AN/MSM ratio, but doesn't matter much. Yes it goes off in plastic tubes - larger diameter is better, if you do large like 50g charge then you can take 35-50mm diameter and have not too short charge. No need for end caps - I just used regular tape. For reliable first try be sure charge density is around 1.0g/ ml not higher, then you can try to compress powder if you want to experiment. Pre- dry your components first, then weigh then mix and gently melt together. No worries about catching fire - it is not combustable! Please that MSM tendy to sublimate at elevated temperatures, therefore cover your vessel with something. I just used glass beaker and covered it with anoher glassware. If some crystals depoyit on cold surfaces you can scoop them back into melt and mix. Usually it is much easier to melt dropwise- add some small amount of mixture to the melt, wait until all dissolves then add again, etc. Occasionaly mix to not overheat the bottom, the melt is not viscous at all, not like rcandy.. In the end you must get homogenous transparent slightly yellow melt, no turbidity, undissolved salts,etc. Pour on a cold metalic surface, preferably as a thin layer - it is easier to break apart later. When solid- crush by your method, finer is better but table salt like dimensions is fine enough. Too fine may be worse - it can clamp together, especially if you grind freshly prepared mix. When I did this I just stored the solidified material in plastic bag for a day to let it Crash fully crystallize and become rock hard and only then I grided. Fresh material is somewhat soft - it is normal, just few hours to a day to solidify, just keep away from moisture. Thats what I can remember this time. Good luck!
Laboratory of Liptakov
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If you have sugar, you also have rolls. The mixture AN + 15% croissant at a density of 0.8 g / cc is sensitive to Cap. No. 8.
Tried, confirmed. The dry croissant is crushed into 2 x 2 mm granules and mixed with AN + a little water. The mixture is dried at 80 - 100 C. Caution, occasionally the croissant reacts with AN at high temperature. (at 170 C) The recommended density is 0.6 - 0.8 g / cc. Thus pretty a fluffy mixture. Best final grain are 3x3 mm. But 2x2 works also. Critical diameter 30 mm.

[Edited on 7-5-2022 by Laboratory of Liptakov]

Development of primarily - secondary substances CHP (2015) Lithex (2022) Brightelite (2023)
MineMan
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 Quote: Originally posted by papaya I will report IF some day I go for it and retry, I've run out of my MSM, which I synthesized from DMSO, whisch itself is a liquid fuel to consider. Also now I lack of strong booster compound like ETN. So anybody is free to test and hopefully report here. Main reason of failure generally is too high density in AN/ fuel (generally any oxidizer/fuel which a!one are not HEs) compsositions, unless you make it somehow too sensitive. BTW, when I talked about addition of Al powder it was NOT into the melt, but afterwards (keeping OB=0). However now I Think that if Al can be added directly into the melt and then cast - thah potentially CAN be a thing!

That was my idea. It would be silly to exclude the aluminum. Perhaps 2 percent microballoon will be added too. Or red phosphorus and copper oxide will surly get it to kick. Adding a bit of hexamine will make a difference as well
JohnyT56
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What?? Dry pre-made croissant dough after cooking? I don't understand what you mean. I know AN detonates with flour but there are other things in the croissant dough as well. Have you tried this mixture before?
MineMan
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 Quote: Originally posted by JohnyT56 What?? Dry pre-made croissant dough after cooking? I don't understand what you mean. I know AN detonates with flour but there are other things in the croissant dough as well. Have you tried this mixture before?

I get the perception you would benefit greatly by reading more threads on this site and watching YouTube videos
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special topics » Energetic Materials » ANSU mixture questions. Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues