CwisGons
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Trying to Build First Electrolytic Cell: Diaphragm/Ion Permeable Membrane?
Hello everyone. I want to try to start a big project. Eventually, I wanna build an electrolytic cell that makes sodium hydroxide, bleach, and maybe
even hydrogen chloride, possibly purely powered by a bicycle.
But first baby steps,
I wanna begin making the cell by first designing the diaphragm/ion-permeable membrane.
I was inspired by both these videos:
I wanna make the design mostly based on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZH5fB0iM7U
However, I also wanna make/add the membranes shown off in this video, since I think I can make these fairly cheaply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiMt4tIced8
First, he mentioned that some cleaning products can be used to make the dechlorination solvent, even shampoo. Can I use this shampoo?
https://www.walmart.com/ip/2-Silkience-Salon-Series-Advanced...
I chose this shampoo because it seemed to contain the highest amount of quaternary ammonium salts due to containing both Cocamidopropyl betaine and
polyquaternium-7, and was only a dollar where I found it. However, this product appears to have no SDS. How do I know how much to add to the solution?
Also, a more important question is how I construct the membrane/diaphragm, or if it would even work? Essentially, I would sandwich the bottom of a
clay pot between two of these membranes, and stick them together using vegetarian gelatin or agar agar.
Or maybe perhaps I stick them using the citrate/PVA mixture, and bake them together?
Would this work? Any advice or tips?
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mysteriusbhoice
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the membrane relies on an ion exchange resin containing functional groups that bind to cation in solution sodium potassium hydrogen ions etc.
the citric acid + PVA membrane needs to be baked at 160C for 35 mins in order for the citric acid to crosslink esterify the PVA chains where the
unlinked carboxylic acid acts as the ion exchange group.
when electricity flows through the unit is when it allows for ions to be transferred against the concentration gradient.
Porous pots work like clay and agar work on osmosis and also this allows for a delay on the transfer of ions across a concentration gradient. The
electricity flow allows for ions to be transferred across the 2 chambers to whichever electrode they are attracted to.
To construct a membrane cell you need a substrate for the membrane which would either be fiber glass or cotton cloth. The PVC resin is a binder/primer
which when dechlorinated create a reactive surface to allow for crosslinking between partially dechlorinated PVC and PVA chains via citric acid.
The PVC itself can act as a porous barrier without ion exchange properties and you can actually just use it as is or partially dechlorinate it to
increase porosity without having to bake layers of PVA ester ion exchange resin.
NaOH works better using an ion exchange resin but it also works with porous barriers.
bleach cannot be made using ion exchange membranes as it will just produce Cl2 and NaOH and when bleach is produced it means the membrane is destroyed
which happens when NaOH reaches a high concentration.
Try the use of ionomer Cement which is better than claypot and has both porous properties and ion exchange resin properties.
2 kinds of ionomer cement are possible to make
1. CaSO4 based ionomer cement which can be used for chloroalkali process and sodium hydroxide (below 10%) but not for preparation of acid like H2SO4
from soluble sulfates.
2. Ion exchange resin impregnated concrete which can be used for everything!!.
This video shows the process.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crAlzaicWFM
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Corrosive Joeseph
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Lead acid batteries contain the membrane you are looking for.....
| Quote: |
In case the electrodes come into contact with each other through physical movement of the battery or through changes in thickness of the electrodes,
an electrically insulating, but chemically permeable membrane separates the two electrodes. This membrane also prevents electrical shorting through
the electrolyte
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https://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/lead-acid-batteries/oper...
/CJ
Being well adjusted to a sick society is no measure of one's mental health
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Hexabromobenzene
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I want to make a membrane from sulfonated polystyrene from a used water filter. I reactivated it with hydrochloric acid. I'm thinking of dissolving it
in dichloromethane and soaking the polypropylene fabric from the bags(meltblown). This fabric can also be used to secure the membrane to the container
like a rope or collar. Also for her protection.
I also have porous polypropylene membranes from car batteries. 1 car battery contains 32 sheets approximately 25cm x 15cm. Before use, you must wash
it with a thought of lead oxide. The membrane can also be removed from a lithium-ion battery, but often used batteries contain a damaged membrane or
with clogged pores. It is also thinner and has less mechanical strength.
I will probably test both membranes, but the porous membrane seems to be more reliable since it cannot be destroyed by chemical
[Edited on 23-6-2022 by Hexabromobenzene]
[Edited on 23-6-2022 by Hexabromobenzene]
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mysteriusbhoice
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Quote: Originally posted by Hexabromobenzene  | I want to make a membrane from sulfonated polystyrene from a used water filter. I reactivated it with hydrochloric acid. I'm thinking of dissolving it
in dichloromethane and soaking the polypropylene fabric from the bags(meltblown). This fabric can also be used to secure the membrane to the container
like a rope or collar. Also for her protection.
I also have porous polypropylene membranes from car batteries. 1 car battery contains 32 sheets approximately 25cm x 15cm. Before use, you must wash
it with a thought of lead oxide. The membrane can also be removed from a lithium-ion battery, but often used batteries contain a damaged membrane or
with clogged pores. It is also thinner and has less mechanical strength.
I will probably test both membranes, but the porous membrane seems to be more reliable since it cannot be destroyed by chemical
[Edited on 23-6-2022 by Hexabromobenzene]
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you can also use fiberglass cloth as a substrate which should be very chemically resistant.
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Hexabromobenzene
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I took out an ion exchange resin from an old water filter. These are transparent orange balls. They are made from a sulfonated
polystyrene-dvinylbenzene copolymer. The ion exchange resin was treated with hydrochloric acid to give the acidic form. Then it was dried
The obtained dry round granules are insoluble in organic solvents. They are insoluble in acetone and dichloromethane. To obtain a diaphragm, it is
necessary to apply the resin to a porous carrier, but the polymer is not soluble in anything. What should I do with this substance? I have dismantled
many used water filters and I have about 4 kg of this ion exchange resin.
How to make a diaphragm out of it? How to dissolve it?
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mysteriusbhoice
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| Quote: Originally posted by Hexabromobenzene | I took out an ion exchange resin from an old water filter. These are transparent orange balls. They are made from a sulfonated
polystyrene-dvinylbenzene copolymer. The ion exchange resin was treated with hydrochloric acid to give the acidic form. Then it was dried
The obtained dry round granules are insoluble in organic solvents. They are insoluble in acetone and dichloromethane. To obtain a diaphragm, it is
necessary to apply the resin to a porous carrier, but the polymer is not soluble in anything. What should I do with this substance? I have dismantled
many used water filters and I have about 4 kg of this ion exchange resin.
How to make a diaphragm out of it? How to dissolve it? |
You can imbed them into cement like in this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crAlzaicWFM
iONOMER CEMENT.
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Organikum
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Gore Tex makes great cell dividers/membranes for electrochemistry, if it is a good choice in this application I cannot say, but it can be bought at
tolerable prices or just ripped out of discarded higher end functional winter jackets and similar. When it says big "Gore Tex" on the label then it
might be even true. Not always though. 
/ORG
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