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teodor
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This is not a paper, this is "Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia" says. What is the original article with description "I took 10 g of sulfamic acid, I've got
nitrous acid generated from nitrite I bought at Merck/Drugstore" etc. I doubt this process was used in industry because sulfamic acid is produced from
SO3 and it was very great achievement to get it realtively cheap, the first methods were quite expensive. People were enormously proud to turn the
plain boring H2SO4 to misterious molecule of sulfamic acid, I read those publications in sequentional order some time ago. Nobody used it to make
H2SO4.
If there is no reference (as usual), the simple question: mix water solutions of sulfamic acid and nitrite - what will happen? Is it exotermic
process? How to check we get it "quick and quantitatively"? What is the range of concentrations it works? Not mentioning the temperature. Does "quick"
means "explosively" at raised temperature and high concentration? Why HNO2? Can ozone work? Persulfate? Concentrated H2SO4 at elevated temperature?
Electrolisys?
Your idea is worth investigation, that's what I said. Because it is interesting chemistry - the oxidation of ammonia/amino group is not happen too
often quantitatively.
But as a source of H2SO4 it would have a little interest because you get 50/50 acid/water at best and probably will use nitric acid which is harder to
get than diluted H2SO4, so the interesting idea will have no discussion untill you can publish something new that nobody knows yet.
Until now you just reporoducing what is written in wikipedia (presumably known to 99% users here) and making very weak progress in NO/NO2 generation
approach, so I don't see even any attempt of "brainstorming"
P.S.
Attachment: baumgarten1930.pdf (444kB)
This file has been downloaded 78 times
Please pay careful attention on what is written on page 1020 in the part just below the formula.
(I always assumed that it is a duty of original poster to supply a reference. Well, I would say it again: the industrial encyclopedia is not a
reference).
[Edited on 22-8-2025 by teodor]
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RU_KLO
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Quote: Originally posted by teodor  | This is not a paper, this is "Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia" says. What is the original article with description "I took 10 g of sulfamic acid, I've got
nitrous acid generated from nitrite I bought at Merck/Drugstore" etc. I doubt this process was used in industry because sulfamic acid is produced from
SO3 and it was very great achievement to get it realtively cheap, the first methods were quite expensive. People were enormously proud to turn the
plain boring H2SO4 to misterious molecule of sulfamic acid, I read those publications in sequentional order some time ago. Nobody used it to make
H2SO4.
[Edited on 22-8-2025 by teodor] |
I understand the title of the post differently. For me its not finding a better way to produce sulfuric acid, but "Can sulfuric acid made from
sulfamic acid?"
Yes.
Also mixing HNO3 directly with sulfamic acid (because HNO3 contains some HNO2), produces H2SO4.
Although not tried by myself, here is an experiment for teaching:
Brasted, Robert C.. (1951). The effect of nitrous acid on the oxidizing power of nitric acid. Journal of Chemical Education, 28(8), 442–.
doi:10.1021/ed028p442
"
Also:
there are other papers that demostrate this:
HNO2 + HSO3NH2 -> N2 + H2SO4 + H2O
NITROUS acid and sulphamic acid react in aqueous solution according to equation (1). Li and Ritter 1 studied
NH2*S03H + HNO2 -> N2 + H2S04 + H2O
the reaction in acetate buffers and obtained a rate equation (2), which they interpreted in terms of the ratedetermining attack of the nitrosonium ion
NO+ on sulphamate ion.
"J. Chem. SOC. (A), 1967
Kinetic Study of the Reaction between Nitrous Acid and Sulphamic Acid
By M. N. Hughes, Chemistry Department, Queen Elizabeth College, London W.8 "
Rounding up: Can sulfuric acid made from sulfamic acid: YES. Is this a better way to produce sulfuric acid, probably not. But in some countries is
very difficult to get hands on sulfuric acid, and probably the other reagents no.
Attachment: ed028p442.pdf (494kB)
This file has been downloaded 87 times
Go SAFE, because stupidity and bad Luck exist.
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teodor
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Are you kidding me? For me it is well-known fact, at least I've made several big posts about producing SO3 from sulfamic acid on SM last year, so if
even I was able to reproduce some methods that the more knowledgeble participants are capable to find more ways. This is not question at all. The
question is making research and provide initial reference to start a constructive discussion with. As SM guidelines sais:
"Do not open new topics without providing all the necessary references ... Keep in mind that a topic without a single reference to the relevant
primary literature , or to sources of your claims, is effectively worthless as it provides no starting point and no reading material
for a constructive discussion ...
The choice of references format is not that important, but enough data must be provided to easily locate the articles or other
sources. Wikipedia is not a reliable source and should not be your only reference.
and
Make sure you search the forum and read all the relevant and related discussions
So, back to the topic. Based on the reference I've provided in the previous message we can assume that the reaction with nitrous oxides is highly
exotermic to the point of explosiveness. How do you propose to deal with this situation in your method?
| Quote: Originally posted by RU_KLO |
Also mixing HNO3 directly with sulfamic acid (because HNO3 contains some HNO2), produces H2SO4.
Although not tried by myself
|
So you propose for others to try even don't realizing it can be damn dangerous. That's why I started asking you about your experience with nitric
oxides.
Every time you see N2 as an oxidation result you can assume detonation
P.S. Oh, I see, it was not you, it was PoWEr who started the discussion without a reliable reference. My apologize to you, RU_KLO. I probably ignored
to read this thread before by exactly this reason - no any reliable piece of information given.
And how funny that nobody tried to mix water solutions of NaNO2 and sulfamic acid here from May. This is exactly how many of those discussions go.
P.P.S. If somebody really need to make his/her own H2SO4. Before inventing lead chamber process which was invented not so much time ago comparing with
existence of H2SO4 production, industry used S + nitrate mixture which they just burn. S is less expensive than sulfamic acid and nitrate is less
expensive than nitrite and the reaction is not explosion. Adrian has a great video with the demonstration of the process: https://youtu.be/gG5faYdP5Kw?si=O3fJKtmprHVIDXzM
And
Believe me or not, but I know several people on the forum who usually share their chemicals with those who can use them for something interesting.
Including H2SO4. This is the power of the community. Also the price of chemicals could be reduced by doing experiments in a smaller scale. Doesn't
matter, you can make the research on a new method of getting H2SO4 from sulfamic acid but with some real outcome. There is no way to reach this point
without doing real experiments.
[Edited on 22-8-2025 by teodor]
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pesco
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| Quote: Originally posted by Keras |
Next to impossible. Application costs £100 or £200 and you wont get the licence anyway. Couple years ago friend of mine filed for info based on
Fridom of Information Act. Out of nearly 2000 applications only few were granted. I can't believe that all the applicants were wacos or terrorists.
The aim of licensing is to cash in and place you on a list of suspects, so you get raided when authorities get bored.
There is a workaround. Register a company and make it dormant to avoid bussiness costs. It will cost you only few quid. Businesses do mot require
licence.
Extortionate prices in UK are different matter. I can get the same stuff in PL for several to 10 or even more times cheaper. |
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bnull
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@pesco: Fix your quote, please. It wasn't me who asked about a license.
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