burnbar
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 30-6-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
Me am smart boy, me make light talk (markup on lab equipment)
So i've been fascinated by the topic for like 10 years or more and have gotten more and more interested in making my own lab equipment.
I was thinking of selling it but due to unforseen circumstances (the usual assholes) I have made the leap and actually started working on and reverse
engineering lab equipment. Parts are pretty expensive but i'm no noob and i got a lot of time and (well kinda) money to put into development.
What i'm wondering is (because the markup is insane and its a pretty closed off market) how much would you be willing to put down for things like:
Quartz based tube furnace
Nir style spectrometer (nir is easier to make on a budget compared to mid-ir but the issue with nir is the lack of spectral data)
Basic gas chromatography machinery
Etcetc, suggestions are welcome.
I am honestly disgusted how you pay 50k for a machine and are expected to buy their software seperate but is the market even large enough to make
something like this feasible? Because there's honestly a lot you can do for say 2-3k but is there enough interest?
I have seen countless kickstarters disguising shitty nir as magic but with the tech available now you can for example make an atr-ftir for 5ish grand
that can detect all the major peaks.
Would you take the chance or just buy used equipment with limited to no support? Honestly i'm gonna do it anyway but how sane of an idea is this?
|
|
|
Sulaiman
International Hazard
Posts: 3899
Registered: 8-2-2015
Member Is Offline
|
|
I think that you need to identify your potential customers carefully,
I doubt that large companies will buy due to unknown performance, reliability, maintenance, servicing and SAFETY.
(will your devices be UL certified etc.)
I have made a couple of systems that we sold to banks,
because it was something that was required but not then available.
It is easy when you know your customers, not so easy otherwise.
Consider setting up a website and possibly join a gofundme type of site,
partly to get funds but mainly to direct people to your website.
Document your development on YT or similar.
IF I were to buy such a device I would want reference spectra.
I guess that a reasonably priced spark spectrometer may also sell
CAUTION : Hobby Chemist, not Professional or even Amateur
|
|
|
ametrine
Harmless
Posts: 6
Registered: 20-4-2024
Location: The endless void
Member Is Offline
Mood: Halogenated
|
|
I have been interested in acquiring some more specialized laboratory equipment (mostly analytical), but I have not purchased any due to concerns such
as:
• cost – new equipment is unaffordable and it's hard to know whether used equipment is in good condition unless/until you purchase it
• serviceability – if one part of an instrument breaks, I should be able to identify and fix/replace just that part, without a technician
• consumables – if an instrument requires proprietary consumables, then I won't buy it, because if I lost the ability to purchase the consumables
(or if a company gatekept them due to me being an amateur), then the instrument would become a brick
• software – generally all the software is unfree/closed-source and only runs on Windows (read: not on my beloved Linux)
These concerns have prompted me to consider making my own equipment, but I currently lack the tools and skills. In particular, I would love to acquire
a capillary electrophoresis apparatus with an autosampler, but the market for such instruments is probably much too small/closed for you to target.
Non-analytical equipment (e.g. a tube furnace) at lower prices than current market offerings could be very attractive (and some of my concerns
wouldn't apply), but it's hard to say what price I would pay for such without product specifications.
|
|
|
chempyre235
Hazard to Others
Posts: 170
Registered: 21-10-2024
Location: Between Nb and Tc
Member Is Offline
Mood: Buried in chemistry
|
|
A small and inexpensive, high heat (~1200°C max temp) tube furnace would probably sell to quite a few amateur chemists (myself included) (and
possibly other hobbyists), provided it wasn't more than a few hundred dollars. A good idea might also to have a pass-through setup, for continuous
reactor schemes.
Rudimentary spectroscopic equipment would probably also sell, but your pool of potential buyers becomes much smaller after the cost exceeds a couple
thousand dollars.
Standard lab equipment like precision balances and heating mantles would sell if they were cheap and reliable. I've also looked into electric air
heaters (instead of Bunsen burners), but they sell for about $600 apiece, which is too high for me.
I second @Sulaiman's statement that certification of your product and knowing your customers will help tremendously.
Lastly, but not least important is the way you present yourself. Not to nitpick, but when I saw the title of this thread, I thought, "internet troll"
and "detritus," not "legitimate seller of advanced scientific equipment."
I do think this could potentially be a good idea. You asked how sane your idea was, but all I could think of was the response of the Cheshire Cat:
"We're all mad here." 
|
|
|
unionised
International Hazard
Posts: 5142
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
If you build it they will come.
But there might not be many of them, they might not have much money, and they might have to put up with stupid customs/ import rules.
The thing I'm wondering is how cheap is "good enough"?
Can you undercut "China"?
It's been a while (about 15 or 20 years) since I was involved in buying lab equipment (mainly HPLC stuff), but one thing struck me.
There wasn't a huge range in prices between different manufacturers.
If there was really a massive markup, then any of the companies could drop their prices by 10% or so and increase their market share by more than
enough to compensate.
Where does the money go?
|
|
|
davidfetter
Hazard to Self
Posts: 57
Registered: 8-9-2021
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by unionised  | If you build it they will come.
But there might not be many of them, they might not have much money, and they might have to put up with stupid customs/ import rules.
The thing I'm wondering is how cheap is "good enough"?
Can you undercut "China"?
It's been a while (about 15 or 20 years) since I was involved in buying lab equipment (mainly HPLC stuff), but one thing struck me.
There wasn't a huge range in prices between different manufacturers.
If there was really a massive markup, then any of the companies could drop their prices by 10% or so and increase their market share by more than
enough to compensate.
Where does the money go?
|
Big companies have incentives, not to innovate, but to minimize risk. When only big companies are in a particular market, e.g. when they have pretty
similar products with high barriers to entry, they don't have to have their CEOs get in a secret room in order to collude to fix prices, much as said
CEOs might enjoy that. All they need to do is jockey a little bit early on via their pricing, and, sooner rather than later, they've settled on a fat
profit for all.
|
|
|
bnull
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 15-1-2024
Location: East Woods
Member Is Offline
Mood: preparing copper salts and enjoying it
|
|
I'm a pessimist, take too long to commit myself to any expensive acquisition, and have had so far very few regrets in that respect. Playing the
Devil's Advocate pays. Let's say I'm a prospective buyer and need a spectrometer.
How would yours perform when compared to the more expensive ones made by, say, Omega or OceanOptics, or the cheaper and essentially knock-off stuff
from China and thereabouts?
Have you ever submitted one of yours to test in a professional setting? A research team in a college, for example. You could make a deal and provide
one on a test basis. If the thingus turns out to be as good as the expensive one, both parties win and you earn at least one customer.
Suppose it breaks. Is there a warranty? If so, is it a signed document that can be enforced by law or is it a "my word is the warranty" sort of thing?
Are you able to provide the repair services in any case?
Suppose you kick the bucket; is there a way not to leave the customers orphans? Can the equipment be fixed by another person not necessarily related
to your enterprise, maybe even the customers themselves?
What are the conditions when the equipment malfunctions? Are there known bugs? Can they be patched up?
Does your equipment complies with safety protocols, intelectual property laws, communication rules and the whole thing? How did you make sure of that?
Remember that they vary from country to country.
Is the equipment sturdy enough to resist an amateur environment on a day-to-day basis? We have seen here time and again pictures of what looks like
pretty effed up pieces of equipment that still worked well despite the appearances.
Are the open source components (hardware and software) used in your equipment really open source?
It depends on the used equipment. I can tweak an old, who-cares-about-safety-these-days Corning heating mantle with stirrer and make it absolutely
safe and reliable, maybe even add a remote control. The Physics Department at my former college had people to fix obsolete equipment, such as the
mammoth of an analog spectrometer that was sitting there (beautiful thing, I wish I had used it), and deal with the ones that were being phased out.
Not everyone can spend a couple of grands on a thingus manufactured by a newcomer without guarantees that it works as expected.
[Edited on 13-6-2025 by bnull]
|
|
|
burnbar
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 30-6-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
Well it depends, currently i have a company already registered and am in the process of negotiating a private lab
Ofc there are only so many hours in a day so it will take a ehile and designs will itterativly get better but starting with smaller stuff like tube
furnaces and working your way up...
It's quite an investment but its perfectly doable to build a microwave sputterer and make your own mid-ir sensors. That's pretty much a one time
investment and this way you can keep up with current research at a more rapid way compared to an institution that only needs to keep up with the
market.
And ofc, there will be terms of condition. Something like you send it, i open it up and determine the cause of damage and then it's just if its a bad
part where the mail charge will be paid back, part fixed and send back. After a certain period you can send it fod paid repair and if you filled it
with coke or something you pay full repair costs.
But thanks for the suggestion, any other suggestions? I'd prob compare pricing so i'd be cheaper than second hand well knoen brands and a reasonable
monthly/yearly charge for software but still not the insane anount you pay for labsolutions etc and i want to combine all controll in 1 software
suite. Any other ideas?
|
|
|
wxyz
Harmless
Posts: 21
Registered: 13-4-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by burnbar | So i've been fascinated by the topic for like 10 years or more and have gotten more and more interested in making my own lab equipment.
|
Having gone down this route, mostly with electronic test equipment but with some chem equipment, I can tell you that it is so so much easier to buy a
used piece of equipment and fix it, as opposed to starting from scratch. If you know enough to build your own then you know enough to fix it. Even if
you have to redesign and build your own circuit boards it is easier than starting from scratch because there is already a lot of support out their for
DIY circuit boards.
AT the moment I have a working FTIR, an automated melting point apparatus, and various hot plates made from non-working eBay purchases.
|
|
|
bnull
National Hazard
Posts: 841
Registered: 15-1-2024
Location: East Woods
Member Is Offline
Mood: preparing copper salts and enjoying it
|
|
Have a de-obsolescence service. It may happen that a component isn't manufactured anymore and an otherwise perfectly functional equipment will stop
working when that component eventually fails. Sometimes (or most of the time, in my case) budget does not allow for a full purchase of a new device.
An example: the CRT of my fictitious but reliable FTIR breaks and, being old as heck, its CRT went out of production long ago. You could adapt the
visual output to be used with an LCD/LED monitor instead and charge for it.
Another idea is related to software. Rather than make all your software, why not discuss partnerships with other scientific software sellers?
Spectragryph (at least the version I used in 2019), for example, was a good alternative to the other (prohibitively expensive) spectrum analyzers that
I had only access to in college. This way you can focus your attention in the other pieces of software. It's like one company makes the capacitors,
another makes the CCD, even another makes the switches, the final product gets sold and all receive their share. Instead of competitors, you have
partners.
I don't know if any of that is practical for you, though.
|
|
|
burnbar
Harmless
Posts: 7
Registered: 30-6-2019
Member Is Offline
|
|
Those are.....actually some pretty good ideas. But do many of you actually want to pay to mod your equipment instead of trying it yourself first?
Yeah i tried spectragryph for a while, not for acquasition though. They could use a fresher webpage that logo could look so cool xD
I've got a pretty decent idea i'm working out for mid ir sensors but it sure aint an easy process to make the tools.
There's an optics developer in the same building as my lab will be so i hope they're interested.
| Quote: Originally posted by bnull |
Have a de-obsolescence service. It may happen that a component isn't manufactured anymore and an otherwise perfectly functional equipment will stop
working when that component eventually fails. Sometimes (or most of the time, in my case) budget does not allow for a full purchase of a new device.
An example: the CRT of my fictitious but reliable FTIR breaks and, being old as heck, its CRT went out of production long ago. You could adapt the
visual output to be used with an LCD/LED monitor instead and charge for it.
Another idea is related to software. Rather than make all your software, why not discuss partnerships with other scientific software sellers?
Spectragryph (at least the version I used in 2019), for example, was a good alternative to the other (prohibitively expensive) spectrum analyzers that
I had only access to in college. This way you can focus your attention in the other pieces of software. It's like one company makes the capacitors,
another makes the CCD, even another makes the switches, the final product gets sold and all receive their share. Instead of competitors, you have
partners.
I don't know if any of that is practical for you, though. |
|
|
|
chempyre235
Hazard to Others
Posts: 170
Registered: 21-10-2024
Location: Between Nb and Tc
Member Is Offline
Mood: Buried in chemistry
|
|
Just curious, are you in the US?
The only reason I'm asking is because I often see some used medical and scientific equipment available here in the US.
[Edited on 6/17/2025 by chempyre235]
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
