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Poll: The rights of individuals to buy chemicals.
Strongly Agree --- 116 (66.67%)
Moderately Agree --- 46 (26.44%)
Neither Agree Nor Disagree --- 3 (1.72%)
Moderately Disagree --- 7 (4.02%)
Strongly Disagree --- 2 (1.15%)

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Author: Subject: The rights of individuals to buy chemicals.
Ozone
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[*] posted on 29-11-2006 at 20:43


Ah, the "good-old-days" (harp playing in background)...

When I was child (I mean 6), I was able to go to the drugstore and purchase KNO3, S8, hell, even 500mL cans of ethyl ether. My Grandmother used to bring me there. I had a *very* comprehensive collection of chemicals, and that which was not provided by the "old school" Chemcraft set was provided by either my Father (who is a Chemist) or my God-Father who is a Chemical Engineer. Either way, I had open access to, at age 6, what people cannot receive today at any age (unless they are a representative of an institution bearing it's umbrella of lawyers and established accounts).

I have 10 fingers and have regrown my eyebrows; hair fell out, but everything is all good. At any rate, I believe that this environment led me to be a Chemist (I'm after the Ph.D, now).

It strikes me, in a visceral way, how the only science that kids today are under liability to observe is the manufacture of *goop*. Silly putty is nice, but if these are the influences that will make our next generation of Chemists, I suppose that it is no wonder that we will be soon licensing the most modern scientific technologies from countries such as Korea, Japan, India and China...

What the hell happened to the *concept* of personal responsibility, nevermind, "balls" in North America (this is not sexist, it is merely a colloquialism for "standing up for yourself".)?

Best wishes to all,

O3




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[*] posted on 27-5-2007 at 13:09


I believe there must be some restrictions. Although as a teen ager in the 1950's I was allowed to purchase almost anything bar Class 1 poisons, I just do not trust the ignorance & stupidity of youth (and those who should have grown up) today. I had the benefit of paternal advice on things like chlorate, white phosphorous (oh yes, I had that too - and Na, k, metals, 2 liters of conc (fuming) nitric, sulphuric and hydrochloric acidds - all reagent grade). Of course it dodn't stop me doing a few foolish things.

The problem arises because of the prevalent lack of decent education. The stupid can read, just, and use the internet where all sorts of misinformation abounds. The drug business is very big business and idiots use the stuff, becoming addicted and act as pushers to satisfy their habits. Set yourself up with a meths lab and become rich, if you don't blow yourself up. The street price for amphetamines represents astronomical profits. The more you rstrict drugs, the more the profit.

To get a gun you need a background check in most states. Likewise, in some areas you may have to sign a waiver to get chemicals. Although this is inadequate to fully control criminal activity. at least it helps.

We cannot control the lunacy of the McVeighs and Islamic terrorists (Don't forget so-called Christian terrorists like Rudolph). However, every effort must be made to make it damn difficult for them to achieve their twisted designs.

As a strict libertarian I agree some sort of control is necessary. Anarchy is worse than some order in society. These days I console myself with the idea that a knowledgable and clever chemist can make almost anything he wants. It is the laws relating to possession that really irk me - this is purely being assumed guilty of intent and cannot be logically proven. This applies to all glassware and tools used.

The USA is in the hands of idiots on the left and right who promulgate these policies. Logic has no place in politics, only money and power do.
Nietze's Wille zur Macht. The founding fathers would have a fit if they knew what had happened to the liberties they fought for.

Rant, etc.

DerAlte
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[*] posted on 27-5-2007 at 16:29


Quote:
Originally posted by DerAlte
....
As a strict libertarian I agree some sort of control is necessary. Anarchy is worse than some order in society.
....

DerAlte


Thats the problem with you "libertarians" you should better become librarians because then you would know that Anarchy by definition is exactly this, order in society without goverment.

Vive la anarchy! :D




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[*] posted on 27-5-2007 at 16:38


Quote:
Originally posted by DerAlte

We cannot control the lunacy of the McVeighs and Islamic terrorists (Don't forget so-called Christian terrorists like Rudolph). However, every effort must be made to make it damn difficult for them to achieve their twisted designs.

DerAlte


Not necessarily correct. The US could go back to do the days of isolationism. The US would greatly improve(get the fuck out you illegals) if it focused on itself more. There are only three places in the world I care about North America, Central America and South America. I don't fucking care about some god damn islamic tyrant who is killing his people or some god damn jackass who blew up a mosque. I don't care about holocausts or gulags as long as they aren't here in America. Americans should only concern themselves with Americans.


Thank you very fucking much nazis + jews + japanese. Because of that little bump in history the US thinks it has moral high grounds and can involve itself in everyfucking event that occurs around the world.
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[*] posted on 27-5-2007 at 20:51


My knee-jerk reaction here is;
The rights of individuals to buy and own chemicals...
Shall not be infringed
:P

But even I acknowledge that some control is necessary, not as much as these days, mainly fissile isotopes and potent poisons should be controlled.
The way I see it, there are two types of home scientists, those doing new research, and those trying to make existing compounds from common household products. Both in my opinion are noble. One does not care where their reagents come from, if it gets them to what they want, wheras the other loves improvising from what is available.(Giving the systems of controll a nice middle finger)

I completly agree that a sudden lack of control over chemicals would cause lots of accidents, however in the past people had acccess to whatever they wanted, without major incidents occuring. If that were to sudenly become the situation today lots of people would be hurt, not just good old darwinism type hurt, but innocent people getting hurt. Somewhere along the way people lost responsibility for their actions, landing us in todays situation of excess controlls and realm of big brother and the nanny state. I cannot in all honesty see a shift backwards without some major paradigm shift in society occuring. Things will get worse, untill the systems of control collapse into themselves.

Like I alluded to, I would enjoy being able to do more advanced type research, I have only 'discovered' a couple new routes to known compounds, but due to the overregulation I cannot do this in more of an advanced manner. I do think a return to the systems in 'Uncle Tungsten' would be great for science in general, but such a change cannot be thrust on a society which feeds off being regulated, without unintended consequences. Any change must be gradual. Such a system back then was sufficient, and people were not living in fear because their neigbours could own white phosphorus and cyanide and such things.

"Bottom line is I think the war on drugs has now turned into a global war on science, that is any science not conducted under governmental control and supervision. I think we should be able to buy chemicals but I would not be against some kind of control for certain items like Pu providing we can pass some kind or another of tests for knowledge, use, purpose, and so on, mind you this only for the real problem items. To make glassware illegal while still selling kitchen supplies is beyond the pale of ignorance. Then again, does anyone know anyone in government who is not beyond the pale in ignorance?"

"I would be quite happy if we simply returned to the days when adults could buy ordinary laboratory chemicals as easily as research institutions buy them. I support additional controls for highly radioactive or highly toxic materials, but access should be a matter of training and education, not financial means or institutional prestige (corporate/academic/government customers shouldn't be priviliged above their demonstrated knowledge, and private citizens shouldn't be turned away in spite of demonstrated knowledge)."

Above quotes are good representations of what I think.


PS: Org: Whatever happened to you thinking anarchy had too many rules:P Tsk Tsk:D




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[*] posted on 27-5-2007 at 22:19


In spades, gentlemen, in spades! Especailly the last three. I know this is not the place to be political, but sometimes one's beaker boileth over! I freely admit to being an old fart, and old farts are conservative, yes? I was a conservative in the old country. They betrayed me. I came here 42 years ago because the USA seemed to have gotten over the McCarthy nonsense and returned to some semblance of what the originators intended - freedom.

True, we had race riots here then - I was living near Newark then - and Vietnam was at its height with Johnson the cowboy at the reins. To my mind Nixon was the best president I have seen, but - from afar - I had liked IKe and respected JFK. Forget Nixon's temporary aberration of Watergate, look at the big picture. If you do that, then you will see that Reagan was a real nice guy, a good B actor but a puppet in the hands of his advisors.

Clinton may have been a lecher but his years were good ones. Bush I was a bit wimpy but correct with his Gulf war. Forget the rest. Carter has been more effctive out of office (not saying much), Ford (who?) a draftee. I refuse to say anything about Bush II - I plead the fifth.

I do not agree that anarchy - meaning no rule - is the same as libertarian. All I ask is let me do my thing, don't bug me and I certainly won't bug you. I'll make a point of it. Take your religion and don't try to bug me with nonsense. It's your right to believe. Abortion involves the right of any woman to own her own body. It's no business of mine - you, madam, have to live with it. You want to own a gun? Prove you're worthy first. (I shot rifles in the old country at age fourteen, machine guns and mortars too. It was called the Rotc. The army wanted officers. We had fun.)

Polital correctness will be the death of what the US stands for. Europe is about finished unless it sees the light. That's why I came here and stayed here, It's worse everywhere else. but the old spirit seems to be vanishing. It's now a crime to be an individualist.

Ranting again.

DerAlte
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[*] posted on 28-5-2007 at 01:14


Dittos :D

And furthermore .....

Political correctness is *baby talk* attempted to be made the only "acceptable" and polite language for adults . And the methods for its imposition are the misdirected and misapplied "child psychology" of control freaks who need to grow up themselves . The controllers have their own idea and their own standard for what is right speech and right thought . And others conforming to their idea of what is "right" is in their estimation superior to genuine free speech and free thought . Because it is their personal conviction it is better to be "nice" and use sugary euphemisms or keep silent to avoid any controversy which arises with telling it like it is , or calling it what it is .....about anything or anyone .

Political correctness stands for nothing but stifling free expression , under the pretext of enforced tolerance
and sensitivity . It really stands for nothing but itself
and its architects views being imposed as the lowest common denominator and standard . Applied to a game
of hardball , it transforms into a game of softball which always ends in a tie , or no score is kept , since there would be an inequity about the proposition where the outcome would produce a "loser" , as that would be
insensitive . But that's okay because distinguishing
between a winner and a loser is discrimination and
discrimination has a negative connotation ....right?

So we can't call a sightless person "blind" ....
no that might be interpreted as being insensitive ,
so we shall call the blind "visually challenged" .

And the unhearing can't be called "deaf" .....
no that also might be hurtful
(as if they could hear it anyway):D ......
soooo we shall elevate their status and call
the deaf "hearing impaired" .

And it goes on down the list to complete absurdity ,
where reality itself is redefined in order not to
seem "insensitive" by plainly stating what is so ,
because calling a spade a spade is unfashionable .

There is a huge controversy in the US right now because
the baby talking tiny *minority* politically correct crowd can't be honest about the status of millions of border jumping illegal aliens , who are assigned a class designation of assorted euphemisms like
"undocumented immigrants" or
"out of status guest workers" or similar absolute nonsense which is complete denial of what is the reality
of what they are .

"Political Correctness" seems to be an affliction mainly for the "intellectuals" who are attempting implementation
of their own ideas at social engineering and invention
of a new vocabulary which is the ebonics of the ivory towers where they live ....while 98% of the population
of remaining "ordinary people" simply roll their eyes at
the agenda and lingo of political correctness , and regard it as a sophomoric scam which could only have been conceived and perpetrated by those who think they are smarter than the rest of us even as they prove they don't know shit from shinola .

You hear the subscribers to PC using all the PC terminology .....especially in the media , and it's almost as if they really are convinced this junk they are talking is
the new language of the educated and sophisticated in pursuit of success , while normal people just shake their heads in dismay and recognize the blind leading the blind about that idiotic proposition , awaiting the red meat
of a sensible word of plain talk which might make itself heard above the din so much "academic" hogwash .

On the firearms worthiness ......

Started shooting .410 shotguns on the range at age six , hunting quail with my dad and grandfather a couple of years later , a son of a gun and an instinct shooter is what I am :D . You ever had your dad lay the unloaded gun on the ground at your feet along with a cartridge and
a soup can ? He tells you pick up the can and throw it as
hard as you can , and while it is in flight you pick up the
gun and load it and shoot the can before it hits the ground .....and when you can do five in a row without a miss .....then you are old enough to go hunting with the men .

Years later ....

Practice shooting for me was on the ROTC ranges on saturday mornings .
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[*] posted on 28-5-2007 at 08:05


Don't you just love political correctness ! I once heard someone refer to slaves as temporary unpaid production workers. It's the same as with buying chemicals, you have to draw the line somewhere. Just a shame that some politicians use these lines for their own political gain, and we have to pay the price.
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[*] posted on 28-5-2007 at 08:23


Rosco, you're on the ball! There's still hope, judging by some of the comments in this thread. Ive never hunted, but if I did I'd only hunt what I could eat - or vermin. I have fished and eaten.

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde (?), noted queer, bless him, but one of the wittiest writer:- Political Correctness is the last resort of the scoundrel - and the first resort of the politician.

I am not a senior citizen, I am an old fart. Call a spade a spade, not an agricultural implement.

I should adopt a new commandment: DerAlte, thou shalt not rant. Sorry!

Regards,

DerAlte
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[*] posted on 28-5-2007 at 13:54


Political correctness...

Doesn't that just scream oxymoron? Why does nobody notice??




One shouldn't accept or resort to the mutilation of science to appease the mentally impaired.
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[*] posted on 31-5-2007 at 07:14


I have my own reaction to PC-speak..... I simply refuse to participate! And when some effort is made to make me submit - I digress immediately and address the person attempting to bully my speech and thoughts. Generally, they NEVER expect someone to ask why they are attempting to make someone conform. They are usually shocked to hear that they are being repressive. Often they are taken aback by the idea that they are acting intolerant. But I don't back down.

My reasoning is that the whole PC Bullying issue is very restrictive to open, healthy communication. When someone has to continually think about "offending" some concept in their speech pattern they rarely speak from the heart. That type of self-censorship is unhealthy at it's core because it is essentially dishonest.
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[*] posted on 8-4-2012 at 09:57


"A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and substantial reason' why he should be permitted to exercise his rights,"
" The right's existence is all the reason he needs."

Read more: www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/05/federal-judge-rules-mary...

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[*] posted on 8-4-2012 at 10:41


i would prefer a free society where every one is responsible for their own actions. utopia? yes but not far out.
why not being able to purchase plutonium 244 at the local drug store? poison your self and its your fault you should've read the label! poison your wife and you go to jail! simple as that!
The govt wants to impoe rules and regulations because they are smarter than the people?
drinking and driving is bad and should be enforced no doubt ! but nothing is done against a tired driver who will never even touch the brakes if traffic has stopped ahead of him/her...but the cops is suppose to know better? bullshit!

same for chemicals dont know what you doing? want to do harm? go to jail or lose an arm or kill yourself! free country comes with responsabilities and education!

why should a hot cup of cofee says "caution hot liquid" and not a warning label on mercury chloride for sale to the general public?

its all about control people .
i dont think anybody who watches big rich texas and the bad girls club or jersye shore will ever worry about buying nitro benzen...so i think outside the few kids here and there dicking arround with TATP and losing a hand ,we should be fine .

there isnt much interest in science and chemistry anyway




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[*] posted on 8-4-2012 at 16:18


Quote:
"The restrictions that prevent private individuals from buying laboratory chemicals are an unjust infringement on their personal freedom."


"Buying enriched plutonium is my right."
"Buying water and oxygen is not my right."

It's neither one or the other. Hence my choice, alongside one other person it seems.
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[*] posted on 8-4-2012 at 20:01


as long as you let people buy Pu244 i do not see the point of regulations ,
as i said before freedom is a responsability !
if you dont know what you doing with it then dont buy it or kill yourself
i am confortable with either one




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[*] posted on 9-4-2012 at 03:44


One can only be responsible for their actions if they understand what the real world consequences of those may be. The only way for that to happen is to put regulations in place that protect them for some period of time (until they demonstrate otherwise) prior to them accidentally harming themselves or someone else whilst they learn. E.g. no one needs plutonium to learn a lot about nuclear physics, which can then be applied to the former. I have a basic grasp of electronics and the mains, but I still don't want to have to check every electrical appliance I buy to make sure it's not going to roast me at a later date. Similarly, I doubt the majority of the people want to have to research everything they buy off the shelf to make sure it's not going to explode or give them cancer in the space of one day.
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[*] posted on 9-4-2012 at 09:14


there is always a bad egg...

and bad eggs want freedom too.




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[*] posted on 9-4-2012 at 13:30


If everyone was responsible and knew the impacts of their use of the said chemicals, then yes.

If everybody was interested in exploring chemistry, following basic safety and disposal rules and not venturing into illegal or questionable areas (I know energetics are questionnable to some but many members here are extremely skilled in the subject, and I would personally have no problem living next door to them knowing their hobby and skill level) then it would be great. The problem is that some like to explore energetics in a dangerous way without knowledge on the subject, in search of an explosion and a "whoa dude!" moment, then you have the serious home experimenter who is sold arsenic trioxide and decides to make compounds and gases but doesnt follow disposal and safety rules...

My point I guess is that there are many irresponsible people and some up to no good with chemistry, that if everyone was given free access to any reagent they wanted, things wouldnt be very good. Lots more toxins down drains, lots more pollution going down drains, liability issues for the supplier etc

Its a tough issue and definitely annoying for the chemistry newcomer who gets denied chemicals from almost all companies though. I have been using the same supplier for chemicals for the last 3 years and I have gained their trust and they will now sell me almost anything, no questions asked. I am not a business etc.

I think building up a reliable reputation with a supplier might be the answer but then that becomes hard to control. Is the person buying this for themselves or another person? Have they not bought from us in a long time because something bad happened? etc..

I think control is good because not everyone can handle a full spectrum of reagents responsibly and it is these people who "ruin" it for the real amateur chemists.

[Edited on 9-4-2012 by Mailinmypocket]
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[*] posted on 10-4-2012 at 10:20


I think the state has a duty to stop one person from hurting another. The state also has a duty to make sure that people are accurately informed and can understand the risks involved in products/activities they purchase/undertake, particularly ones sold for profit. Beyond that its up to the individual.

Applying these rules, for example, a person would be able to make drugs for their own personal use, but not sell them, and not drive a car under the influence. (There is an assumption here that if you are smart enough to make the drug you can understand the risks of using it.)

Energetics continue to be problematic since they don't have many uses to the common man other than making an impressive BOOM or trying to hurt someone, but limiting quantities to less than 10g might make sense.

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[*] posted on 19-4-2012 at 08:16


Quote: Originally posted by Magpie  
I do resent that I cannot just call up Aldrich or Fisher and order what I want.

There are lots of ways to cause mayhem abusing readilly obtainable items such as knives, chains, baseball bats, rocks, etc. Also many dangerous chemicals are legal to buy such as gasoline and pesticides. But high demand by the public keeps those easy to buy. So, really governments just restrict what is convenient for them to restrict.

Since it is easy to put paraldeyde or phosphorous on a restricted list and the public will not complain, they do it.


I agree with Magpie.

It is all a matter of convenience.

They had banned ethanol (in the 1930's I think) but they finally find out that a lot of people want it and they can't do much about that so the law was removed.

Imagine if 50% of people became marijuana users? Are they going to put 50% of people in jail?

I wish a lot more people did home chemistry.

[Edited on 19-4-2012 by vmelkon]
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[*] posted on 29-4-2012 at 09:07


Interesting, actually... It should be somehow regulated, but not nearly as strange as it is now.



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[*] posted on 30-4-2012 at 17:00


i'm not saying you can't kill loads of people with chemicals, but its a lot harder and you need a lot more knowledge.
i like the quote :)

[Edited on 1-5-2012 by Pyro]




all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. :D
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[*] posted on 30-4-2012 at 19:00


ok,
wasnt my intention.
i am for the ability to buy whatever chemical you want.




all above information is intellectual property of Pyro. :D
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[*] posted on 1-5-2012 at 09:27
Blame eco-terrorists for our plight.


www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/01/us-usa-security-cleveland...

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[*] posted on 3-5-2012 at 08:43


Gun chat from this year's resurrection of this thread went to Detritus. Here's why: https://www.sciencemadness.org/whisper/viewthread.php?tid=83...



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