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The WiZard is In
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Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes  | | Note that I tend to use words as, presumably, supposedly, IIRC, likely, could it be, etc when making a post, that is because subtle changes in
conditions, materials etc can greatly influence the outcome, nothing in nature is fixed or black and white. Wizzard clearly had gotten the idea that
every chlorate mixture is prone to explode and doesn't need any confinement to do so. I have actually made chlorate-sugar mixtures, and boy, they are
a long way from flash or armstrong mixtures by which he compared them. Yet, he makes a zero tolerance policy of what he thinks is true in an
irritating way by posting huge amounts of vagely-topic-related reference material and twisting facts for which he didn't gave any references.
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Nothing like a disagreement between gentlemen to get your
neurons firing in the morning.
You use an overlay broad brush to paint what I have posted. I have
not posited that all chlorate compounds are that dangerous
if not fatal. Chlorate explosives are a very bad idea, they
had a very short life time of usage their dangers being recognized
early on.
Testing Potassium Chlorate Explosives at the U. S. Bureau of Mines
By S. P. Howell
Dr. Duprè, as cited by De Kalb**," says:
"Chlorate of potassium, on account of the readiness with which it
lends Itself to the production of powerful explosives, offers a great
temptation to inventors of new explosives, and many attempts
have been made to put it to practical use, but so far with very
limited success. This is chiefly owing to two causes. In the first
place, potassium chlorate Is a very unstable compound and is
liable to suffer decomposition under a variety of circumstances,
and under comparatively slight causes, chemical and mechanical.
All chlorate mixtures are liable to what is termed spontaneous
ignition or explosion in the presence of a variety of materials, more
particularly of such as are acid, or are liable to generate acid; and
all chlorate mixtures are readily exploded by percussion, such as a
glancing blow which might easily and would often occur in
charging a hole. In the second place, there is some evidence to
show that the sensitiveness to percussion and friction increases by
keeping, more especially if the explosive is exposed to the action
of moist and dry air alternately."
** De Kalb. Courtenay, Manual of explosives, 1900, p. 16.
Chlorate sugar? K chlorate and v/ fine confectioners' sugar can be
a lot more energetic then most would expect. I have previously
here noted the dangers of Sodium chlorate complete with
pictures.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=15150&...
I have specifically noted the danger of K chlorate/ ferrocyanide
comps. used in comps such as White Gunpowder which also contains
sugar.
Personal experience is statistically useless. Even long term
experience.
Experience alone is not always a safe index to sound practice. In
on accident investigated by this Bureau, one man was killed and
two women in an adjacent building were injured by the detonation
of a sulfur-potassium chlorate composition in the process of being
mixed, although it was stated that the mixing operation
involved had been in use in that plant for 20 years without mishap.
There is, of course, the possibility that the raw material used
at the time of the accident may have been different from that upon
which past experience was based. Thus, if the particular lot of
sulfur employed were acid, abnormal sensitivity of the chlorate-
containing mixture might result. In any event, safe experience,
even for 20 years, would not justify a practice that exposed the mix
operator and others. Instead, the hazards should be recognized
and isolation and remote control provided.
Irving Kabik
Hazards from Chlorates and Perchlorates in Mixtures with Reducing Agents
U.S. Bureau of Mines
Information Circular 7340
December 1945.
Here do-be for you edification/education a scan of an article
I published in the Pyrotechnics Guild International [Inc]
Bulletin. I have included a page (1 of 17) of the late Dr. Shimizu's
test results from which I prepared the graphs.
      
I would be academically remiss if I didn't note Bill Ofaca's
firework related :—
Bill Ofaca's Technique in Fire
Volume 10
Working Safely With Chlorate
KClO<sub>3 </sub> and Ba(ClO<sub>3</sub> <sub>2</sub><sup>.</sup>H<sub>2</sub>O
djh
----
PGII Bulletin
haarmann donald j — Blackpowder Composition — Around the World and Through the Ages 64
haarmann donald j — Fireworks and Selected Pyrotechnic Patents 60
haarmann donald j — Hazards form Salute/Flash/Star Compositions — A brief literature survey 65
haarmann donald j — Probability of having an accident … KClO3 binary mixtures 86
haarmann donald j — Sensitivity of Pyrotechnic Compounds II - Sensitivity as Determined by Oxidizer 70
haarmann donald j — The Sensitivity of Pyrotechnic Compounds I 70
haarmann donald j (The WiZ) — Old vs. New Chemical Nomenclature 71
haarmann donald j (The WiZ) — WARNING — WARNING — WARNING [Sodium Chlorate] 68
haarmann, donald j — [Historical] Early Use of Pyrotechnics for Photographic Illumination 128/40
haarmann, donald j — [Historical] The Uses of Dynamite 1877 129/65
haarmann, donald j — Early Mention of the Use of Aluminum in Fireworks 122/18
haarmann, donald j — Excerpts from Reminiscences Edmund Soper Hunt, 1907 121/43. Hunt’s patents 122/25
haarmann, donald j — Granulation of Potassium Nitrate Blackpowders 55
haarmann, donald j — Granulation of Sodium Nitrate Blackpowders 55
haarmann, donald j — Letter to the AMA 45
haarmann, donald j — Oxidizers and the Single Pyro 56
haarmann, donald j — Pyrotechnic Mole Control 46
haarmann, donald j — Questions and Answers (What is Tris (Nitronium) aluminum hexaperchlorate 33
haarmann, donald j — Safety of Copper/Brass Screens with Chlorate Compositions 41
haarmann, donald j — Sieves 42
haarmann, donald j — The WiZ’s Pyro Trivia Quiz 111/62
haarmann, donald j (The WiZ) — Exploding Targets 48
haarmann, donald j (The WiZ) — Mission Improbable 56
haarmann, donald j (The WiZ) — The Few, The Proud, The Sulfates 46
[Edited on 21-5-2011 by The WiZard is In]
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hissingnoise
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| Quote: | | Wizzard clearly had gotten the idea that every chlorate mixture is prone to explode and doesn't need any confinement to do so.
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Nitro-genes, clearly, is mixing his wizards - we have at least three!
Wiz I,- Wiz II - and Wiz III - in chronological order might simplify matters? 
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nitro-genes
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"From a statistical point of view personal experience is useless"
Reasoning like this you could say that science as a whole is useless!
Anyway, to get back to reality...
I know about all the dangers of chlorate compositions upon storage, manufacture, friction/impact etc etc. Still, chlorate-sugar is not something that
detonates in your face when you keep a small amount in a lightly confined container. Again, it needs quite heavy confinement. In gram amounts, I just
can't imagine this composition making it to 2300 ms like for blasting cap initiated cheddite, that produces about 2500 bars of pressure. (Hardly a
high explosive, considering ANFO produces 40.000 bar) Bullseye smokeless powder will produce barrel pressures up to 1200 bar (IIRC  ), with presumably a considerable safety margin. Now, we are talking gram amounts om
an overfueled mixture, and without initiation by a blasting cap. Fuse ignition of flashpowders normally produces around 700-1100 bars of pressure
IIRC, and would thus not able to rupture or fragment a barrel.
[Edited on 21-5-2011 by nitro-genes]
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes | "From a statistical point of view personal experience is useless"
Reasoning like this you could say that science as a whole is useless!
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Oh. If individual experience is to be taken for scientific fact ...
Cold fusion and Poly-water are facts. The Earth is flat is a fact.
Alien abductions are fact's..... ad infinitum.
djh
----
Many scientist, most notable Carl
Sagan, have believed the sheer
number of environments in the
universe makes it possible that life
had developed elsewhere. But as
Clancy points out, "It's one thing to
believe that life might exist on other
planets, and quite another to believe
that it is secretly examining your
private parts."
Stuart Vyse's review of :-
Susan A Clancy's
Abducted : How People Come to Believe
They Were Kidnapped By Aliens
Science 310 [5752] 1280-81
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes | "From a statistical point of view personal experience is useless"
Reasoning like this you could say that science as a whole is useless!
Anyway, to get back to reality... |
I see you like a lot of others here is a member of the —
Say - Believe - Hope school of safety, i.e.,
It is safe because :—
I say its safe.
I believe it is safe.
I hope it is safe.
I am a great believer in — I am not going too live forever,
I do not want to create a reason for people with gold badges
to be a looking where the sun don't shine with microscopes,
at my age 20-years is a life sentence.
I put my faith in Richard Feynman's famous conclusion to his
report on the shuttle Challenger accident.
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled.
[Great I have failed Google's Turing test... it thinks I am a robot.
Our systems have detected unusual traffic from your computer
network. This page checks to see if it's really you sending the
requests, and not a robot.]
Gram quantities? Forsooth, unless you are extracting psychotropic
chemicals from Psilocybin shroom's no one works in gram quantities.
For a large number of chlorate based comp. containment need
only to consist of a sheet of paper or an open ended container
to bring grief unending.
Larger quantities -
4 HURT IN EXPLOSION THAT WRECKS HOME.
Two Women Hurled Through Floor When Flashlight Powder Ignites.
BUILDING WALL BLOWN OUT
Jersey Photographer Burned Trying to Aid His Wife—:Helper May Die.
The New York Times, January 11, 1916.
HADDONFIELD, N. J. Jan, 10—Ten Pounds of flashlight powder exploded
this afternoon In the dining room of the home of Charles. Mills at 7 Regnillah
Avenue. One Wall of the house was blown out, it was set on fire, and windows
were broken in neighboring buildings.
Mr. Mills, his wife, daughter, and his daughter's fiancé, Arthur Teed, are in
the Cooper Hospital at Camden all badly burned. It is feared that Mrs. and Miss
Mills and Mr. Teed will die.
Mr. Mills has .a photography establishment near his home and was in his
studio working. In the dining room of their home Miss. Maria Mills and Mr. Teed
of 898 Haddon avenue Camden, were mixing the ingredients for ten pounds of
flashlight powder. Mrs. Mills stood at the end of the dining room table watching
them.
What set the powder off is not known. When the explosion occurred Mrs.
Mills was hurled through a window out upon the lawn with her clothing on fire. A
hole was torn in the floor and through this the young woman was hurled.
Teed was thrown through doorway leading into the parlor of the house
across the room and against the front door with such force that the door was
knocked from its hinges and was thrown with Teed into the street.
Mills ran out of the photography studio to the aid of his wife. Before he could
get the fire out she was burned to the waist and all her hair was burned off. Mills
and others dropped into the cellar to rescue Miss Mills, who was as seriously
injured as her mother. All her hair was lost and her body was badly burned. Teed
escaped with burns or the face and hands and arms, but several ribs and bones
In his body are broken and he suffers from shock.
The firemen put out the fumes, but the downward force of the explosion blew
the hole through which the young woman dropped to the cellar and tore down the
pillars holding the centre floor beam. The house is so badly twisted it will
probably have to be torn down.
&c., &c.
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13946#...
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Blasty
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| Quote: Originally posted by nitro-genes | Sure, I couldn't agree more...
It's not that I disagree to posting (and reading!) references and reading material, not the slightest!  I've collected more than a 1000 articles, patents, video's, web information, and about 30 books myself. Ive done a
fair share myself. Though, some half-hearted reading on a topic for an evening
is not making you an expert...but even that is not a problem in itself. Note that I tend to use words as, presumably, supposedly, IIRC, likely, could
it be, etc when making a post, that is because subtle changes in conditions, materials etc can greatly influence the outcome, nothing in nature is
fixed or black and white. Wizzard clearly had gotten the idea that every chlorate mixture is prone to explode and doesn't need any confinement to do
so. I have actually made chlorate-sugar mixtures, and boy, they are a long way from flash or armstrong mixtures by which he compared them. Yet, he
makes a zero tolerance policy of what he thinks is true in an irritating way by posting huge amounts of vagely-topic-related reference material and
twisting facts for which he didn't gave any references. |
Putting such chlorate mixtures in the same class as the sugar ones, even when accelerated by chromates, is indeed misleading. They are nowhere near as
dangerous as something like "Armstrong's mix", sulfur-chlorate or chlorate-ammonium mixtures. Another type of chlorate mixtures that are not in the
same class as those unstable mixtures are the ones that contain fats, oils, alcohol or petroleum hydrocarbons, which act as desensitizing agents for
potassium and sodium chlorate. Some of these are stable enough that they were even approved for use in grenades, mines and plane bombs in WWI.
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by Blasty | | Another type of chlorate mixtures that are not in the same class as those unstable mixtures are the ones that contain fats, oils, alcohol or
petroleum hydrocarbons, which act as desensitizing agents for potassium and sodium chlorate. Some of these are stable enough that they were even
approved for use in grenades, mines and plane bombs in WWI. |
You can find a list in Arthur Marshall's - Dictionary of Explosives,
1920. I own an original copy I would bet even money that you
can find a copy to DL using Google or some such.
While between the covers see what he has to say 'bout
White Gunpowder.
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Blasty
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| Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In | You can find a list in Arthur Marshall's - Dictionary of Explosives,
1920. I own an original copy I would bet even money that you
can find a copy to DL using Google or some such.
While between the covers see what he has to say 'bout
White Gunpowder. |
Yes, I am familiar with the work in question. He says that "white gunpowder" is too sensitive and is not produced commercially. But the reason why
this particular mixture is more dangerous than other sugar-chlorate mixtures is because of the ferrocyanide. Plain sugar-chlorate mixtures or even the
ones that are accelerated by the presence of a chromate are certainly less dangerous.
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by Blasty | | Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In | You can find a list in Arthur Marshall's - Dictionary of Explosives,
1920. I own an original copy I would bet even money that you
can find a copy to DL using Google or some such.
While between the covers see what he has to say 'bout
White Gunpowder. |
Yes, I am familiar with the work in question. He says that "white gunpowder" is too sensitive and is not produced commercially. But the reason why
this particular mixture is more dangerous than other sugar-chlorate mixtures is because of the ferrocyanide. Plain sugar-chlorate mixtures or even the
ones that are accelerated by the presence of a chromate are certainly less dangerous. |
Sorry I cannot stop this from being posted in italic.
Plain sugar-chlorate mixtures yes I agree, however,
don't be lured into complacency (familiarly builds contempt)
K chlorate mixed with confectioners sugar can be quite energetic.
Well know extremely sensitive chlorate mixtures :—
K ferrocyanide
Red Phosphorus
Realgar
Orpiment
Antimony trisulphide
      
I like NC Asthana's book it is a wealth of information and a
good read.
I should let this go and see if anyone notices it — NC Asthana
sez Realgar - Brock Orpiment.
djh
----
 
Coming next week — Appositives both restrictive and nonrestrictive.
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The WiZard is In
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Food fight
If the ATF had made it ... there would have been more
pieces.
The articles following page(s) can be found not in my files. Sorry.
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The WiZard is In
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Nitroglycerin 5.0 Chlorate Explosives 7.5
Joseph Howard McLain
Pyrotechnics From the View Point of Solid State Chemistry
The Franklin Institute Press
1980
I ran this down it dobe from the French —
Journal Official
April 8, 1919.
djh
----
ein Gelehrter hat keine Weile.
[Edited on 29-5-2011 by The WiZard is In]
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Blasty
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| Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In | Joseph Howard McLain
Pyrotechnics From the View Point of Solid State Chemistry
The Franklin Institute Press
1980
I ran this down it dobe from the French —
Journal Official
April 8, 1919. |
What "chlorate explosives" are being referred to? Because there is no way that such chlorate mixtures as cheddite, explosif P/S, minelites,
Michalowski's miner's powder, asphaline, etc. are more dangerous than nitroglycerine.
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by Blasty | | Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In | Joseph Howard McLain
Pyrotechnics From the View Point of Solid State Chemistry
The Franklin Institute Press
1980
I ran this down it dobe from the French —
Journal Official
April 8, 1919. |
What "chlorate explosives" are being referred to? Because there is no way that such chlorate mixtures as cheddite, explosif P/S, minelites,
Michalowski's miner's powder, asphaline, etc. are more dangerous than nitroglycerine. |
Just hop on over to the Bibliothèque nationale de France (BnF)
and pull up a copy of the April 8th 1917 editon of Journal
Official and report back to the collective.
You will get extra credit for an English translation. However, it is
not payable in this world. Sorry.
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The WiZard is In
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| Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In | | Quote: Originally posted by Blasty | | Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In | Joseph Howard McLain
Pyrotechnics From the View Point of Solid State Chemistry
The Franklin Institute Press
1980
I ran this down it dobe from the French —
Journal Official
April 8, 1919. |
In hast I failed to add - I too find this hard to beleive, however,
What "chlorate explosives" are being referred to? Because there is no way that such chlorate mixtures as cheddite, explosif P/S, minelites,
Michalowski's miner's powder, asphaline, etc. are more dangerous than nitroglycerine. |
Just hop on over to the Bibliothèque nationale de France (BnF)
and pull up a copy of the April 8th 1917 editon of Journal
Official and report back to the collective.
You will get extra credit for an English translation. However, it is
not payable in this world. Sorry. |
I my haste I failed to add that I too find this hard to believe,
however, Arthur Marshall included it in volume 3 of his book
Explosives. The French at that time would have had extensive
experience with chlorate explosives &c.
I had hoped to find a reference from Charles Munroe's
Notes on the Literature of Explosives. No luck.
A Pendulum-Type Testing Apparatus
Testing Potassium Chlorate Explosives at the U. S. Bureau of Mines
By S. P. Howell
Scientific American 1920
http://tinyurl.com/3cb3s5g
"This publication, which has been prepared at the request of Dr.
Charles E. Munroe, chairman of the committee on explosives
investigations of the National Research Council, includes
references to the sensitiveness of explosives, particularly
potassium chlorate explosives, to frictional impact; describes the
Bureau of Mines pendulum friction device and its tests of the
device; defines the salient terms employed, particularly those used
in classifying the explosives tested; and discusses the results of
370 tests."
http://tinyurl.com/3c3ag8q
-----------
Chlorate and Perchlorate Explosives. Ch. Girard. Mon. sci., 23 [4],
217.— This article, covering some 36 pages, deals first with the
properties of various chlorates and perchlorates and sets forth
experimental results relative to their rates of dissociation and the
nature of the products of this process; second with cheddites, or
explosives compounded from KC10:„ nitronaphthalenes, or their
derivs., and linseed oil, with or without starch and other organic
compounds, the methods of manufacture and properties being set
forth in detail with the aid of much experimental data, and the
regulations governing their transportation in the different European
countries set forth. The approx. quantities (in metric tons) of
cheddites sold in these different countries since 1904 is as follows:
'04 410, '05 950, '06 1200, '07 1250, '08 1700. Another table sets
forth the amounts made with KCIO, and NaClO, respectively
during these years in which it is shown that the latter is gaining on
the former. .It is stated that owing to the electrolytic methods of
production the price of KClOj and of NaClOj is now but little greater
than that of KN03. The article closes with a list of the various
chlorate explosives which have been proposed since Berthelot
offered his first composition in 1785, numbering some 258, and
giving the components of each. The article includes tables stating
the mol. wts. and m. ps. of a large number of nitrosubstitution
compounds, and other organic compounds, thought suitable for use
in explosive compositions, and the fusion points of mixtures of
such compounds in determined amounts; also the pressures
exerted for given densities of loading of these substances either
alone or when mixed with oxidizing agents, or combustible
substances or both.
ttp://tinyurl.com/3rjljlx
---
[Edited on 1-6-2011 by The WiZard is In]
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