| Pages:
1
2 |
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
Reducing aliphatic nitro compounds to amines
I know there are plenty of ways to reduce nitro compounds to amines, I just need to know one good one. Reducing it with iron doesn't seem to work.
Zinc and HCl does seem to work, but not so well, and presumably separating out the amine is a pain.
The compound is 1-phenyl,1-hydroxyl,2-nitro-propane, ie, the nitroalcohol that would be reduced to PPA.
I'm now split between Al/Ga reduction (very similar to Al/Hg) and catalytic hydrogenation. Al/Ga seems easy enough, and the aluminum is converted to
the aluminate upon basification, so theoretically that could work. I'm just not sure if it would reduce the hydroxyl group too; I don't want that,
but I don't think it would because if it did, people would be using that as an easy route to amphetamine.
Catalytic hydrogenation seems to require a more complicated setup, but I do have some PdCl2 solution that could be made into Pd/C easy enough, from
what I hear. I'm just a bit reluctant to try it because I've never done catalytic reduction before. Plus, palladium is super expensive as of late.
Nickel catalysts seem to be the least likely to work. I've tried making Raney nickel and Urushibara nickel. I've heard Raney nickel + formic acid
will do the job, but Raney nickel is kind of hard to make. I could barely melt nickel with an oxypropane torch. I did eventually, but I'm not sure
how well it mixed with the aluminum. Urushibara nickel doesn't seem to have any good reviews here, so I'm reluctant to try it.
So apologies if this has been covered before, but I have used the search engine, and I'm still not sure what route to go, so I'm hoping someone who
has done something like this can point me in the right direction. Thanks. 
[Edited on 5/18/11 by Melgar]
|
|
|
postart
Hazard to Self
Posts: 59
Registered: 29-6-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
What is 1-phenyl,1-hydroxyl,2-amino-propane is there a case #, can't find such a chemical when searching. Are you speaking of alanine?
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
Could you elaborate on the process used for the Dissolving metal reduction?
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
The compound is phenylpropanolamine, but instead of the amino there is a nitro. And the goal is to turn that nitro into an amino to get
phenylpropanolamine.
For the zinc reduction, there were 4 moles of zinc per one mole of reactant added into the mixture (not all at once though, it was scooped in as it
ran out), then stirring was turned on and HCl dripped into the mixture, very slowly.
For Al/Ga reduction, a galinstan thermometer was broken open and the contents were mixed with about 20 g of molten aluminum. The chunk of metal was
broken into smaller chunks which were added to an aqueous alcohol solution of the nitroalcohol bit by bit. It tended to bubble a lot when the
temperature was above gallium's melting point, which is about 30 C. The bubbles were hydrogen.
For both zinc and Al/Ga, after basification, there was an amino smell eventually left, but there was also this nasty sweet smell that was a lot
stronger but eventually went away. Not sure what that is, but it's gotta be lost yield.
|
|
|
azo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 163
Registered: 12-2-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi melgar tin and hydrochloric acid is a very good way of reducing nitro groups, it is used in reducing aromatic nitro compounds in industry for ex.
nitro benzene to aniline and can be used on aliphatic nitro compounds as well.
i have used this before with great success .
I also have to ask you how you derived your nitroalcohol was is it from propiophenone or was it from the henry reaction using benzaldehyde and
nitroethane , I suspect the later,If you have derived it from the henry reaction what base and solvent was used as this would have an affect on what
isomers of the nitro alcohol you would get .
If you used sodium hydroxide you would get 65% R,R and 35% R,S isomers but if you used triethylamine as the catylist you would then get 80% R,S and
20% RR isomers.
So if you intending on making amphetamine you would not use sodium hydroxide because you would get 65 % levro and only 35% mix of dextro and levro.but
if you used triethylamine you would get 80% mix of levro and dextro and 20% of levro.
But of course this would all change if the end goal was 4 MAR
BEST OF LUCK GETTING HELP WITH 4 MAR ? ONLY SOME PEOPLE ON THIS SITE GET HELP WITH THIS SUBJECT
THEN THEY FALL OVER EACH OTHER TO HELP.
OR IT GETS RAILROADED BY MODERATORS AND END UP IN THE JUNK OR BEGININGS.
REGARDS AZO
|
|
|
Nicodem
Super Moderator
Posts: 4230
Registered: 28-12-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Open referenceless threads in the Beginnings section only! Why do I have to keep repeating this over and over again?
|
|
|
Nicodem
|
Thread Moved
18-5-2011 at 06:15 |
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by azo  | Hi melgar tin and hydrochloric acid is a very good way of reducing nitro groups, it is used in reducing aromatic nitro compounds in industry for ex.
nitro benzene to aniline and can be used on aliphatic nitro compounds as well.
i have used this before with great success .
I also have to ask you how you derived your nitroalcohol was is it from propiophenone or was it from the henry reaction using benzaldehyde and
nitroethane , I suspect the later,If you have derived it from the henry reaction what base and solvent was used as this would have an affect on what
isomers of the nitro alcohol you would get .
If you used sodium hydroxide you would get 65% R,R and 35% R,S isomers but if you used triethylamine as the catylist you would then get 80% R,S and
20% RR isomers.
So if you intending on making amphetamine you would not use sodium hydroxide because you would get 65 % levro and only 35% mix of dextro and levro.but
if you used triethylamine you would get 80% mix of levro and dextro and 20% of levro.
But of course this would all change if the end goal was 4 MAR
BEST OF LUCK GETTING HELP WITH 4 MAR ? ONLY SOME PEOPLE ON THIS SITE GET HELP WITH THIS SUBJECT
THEN THEY FALL OVER EACH OTHER TO HELP.
OR IT GETS RAILROADED BY MODERATORS AND END UP IN THE JUNK OR BEGININGS.
REGARDS AZO
|
Both NaOH and DMAE freebase have been used in the Henry reaction. DMAE freebase is easier to acquire, but I'm not sure if you'd want that mixture of
stereoisomers for 4mar.
I guess now that this thread is in the beginnings section, I'll get approximately 0 more replies, but hey, I might get lucky! I should have just
added a reference or two at the beginning but I was on dial-up at the time and couldn't spend the requisite 1.5 hours searching for references. :-/
I suppose tin/HCl would work, just someone would have to cough up the $30/lb that tin seems to cost. Though I guess one atom of tin can reduce twice?
Once to get SnCl2, and again to get SnCl4? There may be some tin solder floating around that would work for this though. Thanks for the tip.
As far as 4-mar synthesis, there's a pretty good writeup here:
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/para-fluoro-...
I've heard this work fairly well, but can't verify it.
|
|
|
postart
Hazard to Self
Posts: 59
Registered: 29-6-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Do you have a synthesis or write up on how this PPA but with a nitrogroup was created by chance? Anyways I would think that zinc/HCl would be far more
economical than buying elemental gallium, right.
|
|
|
azo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 163
Registered: 12-2-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Nicodem i can understand why its frustrating when there is no references provided,and i understand why they are needed to allow members to understand
and be able to make an inform reply, but in a very small amount of the time there is no references on the subject as my post on cyclisation of amino
alcohols with potasium cyanate.If you can find any references on that rxn you are better than me at searching.
regards azo
[Edited on 19-5-2011 by azo]
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
Gallium is just used to expose the aluminum to the environment; you just need a very small amount of it, and often it can be reused.
The link I posted is what I've been trying to follow, but HCl was substituted for formic acid. That's also been proven to work, for example here:
http://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/norpseudoeph...
The nitroalcohol was created via the Henry reaction between benzaldehyde and nitroethane.
|
|
|
azo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 163
Registered: 12-2-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
The isomers by the said method claim to make a mix of R,R AND S,S isomers
there for only the S,S isomer after resolustion can be reduced to amphetamine which then makes the yeild of 80% only 40% piss poor.
I have posted these references because they are controdicting what the rodium method states.
REGARDS AZO
Attachment: IPTFOUR79NP.pdf (344kB)
This file has been downloaded 1585 times
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
Assuming he was after amphetamine he could use an organic base catalysed Henery reaction to yeild the nitrostyrene and reduce that to Amphetamine
using aluminum amalgum.
I highly doubt that is the goal here.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
Yeah, the goal is 4mar, as opposed to amphetamine. Does this mean sodium hydroxide is an appropriate base? Or is a tertiary amine better?
|
|
|
azo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 163
Registered: 12-2-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Well that would depend on whether the cyclisation is done with cyanate salts or cynagen bromide.
From memory the cyangen bromide with norephedrine would yeild cis 4mar ,but with cyanate salts the trans 4 mar is made.
And if you use norpsuedoephedrine with cynagen bromide it would yeild trans 4 mar.
If you are intending using cyanate salts you would need the erythro isomers for 4 mar.
I have posted this link. it shows the four isomers of ephedrine which is the same as norephedrine only they have a methyl group on the nitrogen.
regards azo
Attachment: Pseudoephedrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.mht (672kB)
This file has been downloaded 51019 times
|
|
|
Methyl.Magic
Hazard to Others
Posts: 139
Registered: 14-5-2007
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by azo |
From memory the cyangen bromide with norephedrine would yeild cis 4mar ,but with cyanate salts the trans 4 mar is made.
And if you use norpsuedoephedrine with cynagen bromide it would yeild trans 4 mar.
If you are intending using cyanate salts you would need the erythro isomers for 4 mar.
|
very interesting !
Do you know which isomer is the best one ?
|
|
|
DJF90
International Hazard
Posts: 2266
Registered: 15-12-2007
Location: At the bench
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: | | Do you know which isomer is the best one ? |
I fear this thread is decending into cookery... Please keep it chemistry related?
|
|
|
azo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 163
Registered: 12-2-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
all 4 isomers of 4 mar are active cis and trans , so it wouldn't matter if you used both isomers of norephedrine .
regards azo
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
DJF90 makes a good point. Best is such a relative term when speaking about this compound. Are you looking for the best one to modulate Dopamine or are
you looking for the best isomer to give yourself a serious and sometimes fatal heart condition?
This is where great care must be taken because even though there is evidence to suggest that the withdrawl of aminorex from the market may have been
botched and bias research( placing the heart condition percentage up there with the common average), I would still take great caution before
performing a bioassay and study enough on the heart valve effects to be fully sure what one is getting into.
Abstract
| Quote: |
4-Methylaminorex is a potential psychostimulant drug of abuse that exists as four stereoisomers: cis-4R,5S, cis-4S,5R, trans-4S,5S, and trans-4R,5R.
The racemic mixture of the cis-isomers has been encountered in illicit samples, but previous animal studies suggest that also the trans-isomers could
have similar stimulant-like properties. We tested whether the stereoisomers possess rewarding properties and compared their potency using the
conditioned place preference method in rats. Furthermore, the involvement of the brain dopaminergic system in the 4-methylaminorex reward was tested
with the dopamine D1- and D2-receptor antagonists SCH 23390 and raclopride administered systemically, or with the neurotoxin 6-hydroxydopamine
injected into the nucleus accumbens. All the four isomers induced place preference, with no apparent differences in their potency. SCH 23990 and
raclopride attenuated 4-methylaminorex-induced increase in place preference, and 6-hydroxydopamine also tended to be efficacious. These findings
indicate that all the four stereoisomers of 4-methylaminorex possess rewarding properties and thus abuse potential; the trans-isomers are at least as
potent as the cis-isomers. Furthermore, the brain dopaminergic system appears to be involved in the 4-methylaminorex-reward.
|
Abstract link: http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/15982727/reload=0;jsessionid...
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
I'm trying to make trans-4MAR, after all, it's more than meets the eye.
Seriously though, should the base just be sodium hydroxide then?
|
|
|
azo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 163
Registered: 12-2-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I could not have explained it better in my last couple of posts , the first thing you want to do is not rely on methods from rodiums site some of it
is rubbish .
HENRY REACTION
triethylamine would give 80% norephedrine and 20% norpseudoephedrine ,norephedrine would yeild 4 mar but like i said in a previous post this would
depend on what cyclisation method you use.
regards azo
Attachment: 4-MAR via alkali metal cyanates.mht (28kB)
This file has been downloaded 1010 times
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
I was under the impression that performing the Henry reaction with Triethylamine as the base then one would yeild the nitrostyrene instead of the
amino alcohol.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
Melgar
Anti-Spam Agent
Posts: 2004
Registered: 23-2-2010
Location: Connecticut
Member Is Offline
Mood: Estrified
|
|
As I understand it, primary amines yield nitrostyrenes because they form the imine intermediate with the aldehyde, whereas secondary and tertiary
amines yield the nitroalcohol because they don't.
|
|
|
azo
Hazard to Others
Posts: 163
Registered: 12-2-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
melgar i think only tertiary amines can be used
here is a lot of info on nitroaldol reactions
Attachment: nitro3.pdf (521kB)
This file has been downloaded 2050 times
|
|
|
Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
|
|
At the very beggining of Chapter 3.1 PREPARATION OF NITRO ALCOHOLS it shows some of the bases that can be used. NaOR is one of the shown bases. It
also shows the use of NaOH plus the phase transfer catalyst cetyltrimethylammonium chloride. Al2O3 seems interesting since I have never heard of its
use in the condensation reaction.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
|
|
|
postart
Hazard to Self
Posts: 59
Registered: 29-6-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Is the starting compound P2NP? If so I thaught the Henry reaction would just reduce the nitro group leaving P2P not PPA, correct?
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
