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Author: Subject: Cold pack disappointment
Steve_hi
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all this screweing around for ammonium nitrate !
I don't understand why you guys just don't order it.
In Canada I bought 500g ACS for 19.95 from NewHorizons in BC
all you have to do is fax 2 pieces of Photo Id.
bonelesss
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Do you now what happened in Norway a few month ago?
In Nordic countries public officers keep eye on AN-fertilisers unless you are a farmer and still you need some kind of licence i quess.
Acetic Acid
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You paid 19.95 for 500 grams of NH4NO3. That's a pretty good deal. However, in instant cold packs a few weeks ago, I paid $5.29 for two instant cold packs. They look very pure and the contents were around 150 grams each. You can buy as many as you want and you won't be questioned about it. Roger86 Harmless Posts: 31 Registered: 17-8-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by Acetic Acid You paid 19.95 for 500 grams of NH4NO3. That's a pretty good deal. Actually in my country with 19 american dollars you could buy 40 kg bag of AN Acetic Acid Hazard to Self Posts: 95 Registered: 14-8-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Also, the same CVS had some (reusable) instant hot packs that contained hot-ice ready sodium acetate. I prefer to make it myself from cleaning vinegar and baking soda, but the packs are also an option. Acetic Acid Hazard to Self Posts: 95 Registered: 14-8-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood What? Where?? Roger86 Harmless Posts: 31 Registered: 17-8-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood In finland its sold at 'agrimarket' chain for around 16€ per 40kg bag.Also they sell KNO3 for 4€ per kg.But i dont believe finland is the only country what has cheap ammonium nitrate, go look for it as fertilizer, but to be noted they only sell in bulk.Smallest bag they sell in is 40kg, but if you have storage space, go for it i did some research (actually very little) but in usa you should look this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlBk_98uk_Y Acetic Acid Hazard to Self Posts: 95 Registered: 14-8-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Ah yes, economies of scale. Buying more is always better. uchiacon Hazard to Self Posts: 87 Registered: 3-7-2009 Location: The Jungle(neezeelund) Member Is Offline Mood: Financial Guys, really? All this effort for potassium nitrate? It's a fertilizer for christ's sake, and I'm sure it's going to be harder to find ammonium ntirate than potassium, what with one being favoured by a certain minority that likes massacring scores for a political message... It really isn't that hard to find potassium nitrate, lol. "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." Before you find youself cheering for a new regulation, consider your reaction if you were to be on the receiving end. Neil International Hazard Posts: 556 Registered: 19-3-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood CAN is designed to decompose on dissolving and heating while producing large amounts of filter clogging sludge via precipitation of magnesium hydroxide to make it difficult to filiter the ammonium nitrate out of it. The magnesium nitrate is readily precipitated by the ammonium which leads to a decrease in pH as the magnesium precipitates out leaving it's nitrate in solution. The decrease in pH makes the ammonium nitrate more liable to off gas ammonia which further allows the pH to drop until the carbonate begins to react which stabilizes the pH while pumping calcium and more magnesium into solution. the stabilized lower pH causes the ammonium nitrate to remain unstabilized which allows more ammonia to leave the solution allowing more calcium into the solution. A solution of nutral ammonium borate can be used as a stabilizer, CAN dissolves into a hot ammonium borate solution without off gassing ammonia and with reduced precipitation of magnesium hydroxide. The formation of insoluble calcium borate occurs but this is helpful, preventing the formation of calcium ammonium nitrate and maintaining the ammonium nitrate. Hot filter chill and collect crystals. No off gas and little waste. If ammonia starts to come out of solution add a bit more ammonium borate. the KNO3 and potassium borates produces by adding KOH are easily separated leading to fairly pure KNO3. KNO3, nitric, and KOH are often stocked by hydroponic shops, Sales of imported KNO3 are restricted in Canada, sales of produced in Canada KNO3 is much less restricted IIRC. Sales of ammonia nitrate is banned in Canada except under strict circumstances if it contains greater then 28% nitrogen by weight IIRC. Purchasers need to be monitored aka on government watch lists. Neil International Hazard Posts: 556 Registered: 19-3-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by uchiacon ...it's going to be harder to find ammonium ntirate than potassium, what with one being favoured by a certain minority that likes massacring scores for a political message... No actually, it is banned because idiots keep on repeating stupid things like that without doing any fact checking. Chordate Hazard to Others Posts: 108 Registered: 23-2-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood CAN, as far as I am aware, usually refers to the strong oxidant ceric ammonium nitrate, which is not what you are looking for, I'd wager. Hennig Brand International Hazard Posts: 1284 Registered: 7-6-2009 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood This is an interesting thread. I have had the same problem lately that some of you have been having. I have been getting cold packs at the local Walmart for the last few years and it has always been pure enough to do nitrations directly. It wasn't perfectly pure however, since when dissolved in water and filtered a small amount of insoluble scummy material could be seen left on the filter paper. The mass of slightly moist AN from one of these packs, (each box contained two packs), was usually around 80g. Here is a picture of some of prills which I just took out of one of the more recently bought cold packs. I think I bought them ~ 2 months ago. I weighed the brown prills and found that there is now ~ 50% more material by weight in the new packs. A few months before this last time I also bought some and they were nice and clean. BTW, this new material foams up a lot when mixed with acid. Probably is CAN (calcium ammonium nitrate). The packaging is identical to what it was before, as far as I can tell. The package says, "Contents; contains ammonium nitrate and water". [Edited on 15-10-2011 by Hennig Brand] Steve_hi Hazard to Others Posts: 196 Registered: 4-12-2010 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood I bought 25kg of 27-0-0 fertilzer just mix with hot water simmer a bit then ladle off the shit that floats to the top let it sit for a few hours decant off the good stuff throw out the shit in the bottom let the good stuff set for a few more hours the ladle it out because some more stuff will have sedimented to the bottom put it in the freezer to crystalize out, vacuum out the water with vacuum filtration let it dry and you will have a lifetime supply for 20$
Hennig Brand
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Sounds fairly straight forward and a lot cheaper than obtaining AN from cold packs. I actually still have enough 34-0-0 to do me for a while, but I still like to experiment with chemicals from different sources. Another bonus of the old/pure cold pack AN was that it was actually quite a bit purer than the fertilizer grade 34-0-0 I have.

Another thing I just noticed, the product code on the new cold packs do end with CAN and the old ones end with A. Someone else already mentioned this, I was just reiterating.
Hennig Brand
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I have found that it is a trivial process to purify the cold pack AN. The picture below shows fairly pure AN obtained by dissolving the dirty CAN in water and filtering through two coffee filters. There was still a trace of fine dirt that got through, but very, very little.

As someone already mentioned for best results filtering through something like diatomaceous earth would work well. I have done this before when trying to get graphite out of a sodium chlorate solution, and it does a very good job of filtering out fine particulate.

The filtered AN solution was put in a glass bowl on top of a small electric crock pot which was nearly full of hot water.This set-up was used to evaporate most of the water from the AN solution over night. The slightly damp AN from the evaporator was then put in an oven at ~105-110C for an hour or so to get it almost perfectly dry.

Like others I also noticed that there was a slight ammonia smell when the CAN was in solution. This is just the ammonium and the base reacting (acid/base reaction) giving off ammonia. This is not big deal, at room temperature and with CaCO3 as the base the reaction is very slow.

[Edited on 22-10-2011 by Hennig Brand]
Steve_hi
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Hi I watched a Youtube on how to make sodium nitrate using NaOH and NH4NO3 Mine didn't turn to liquid as shown on youtube by just mixing the 2 reagents so I added a little water as he said I could I heated it to dryness and it turned to a fine powder I mixed a little with sugar and lit it it burned with a yellow flame so I guess it worked somewhat. I am wondering when you react chemicals this way how pure is the product especialy since Im only using technical grade reagents so i would have sodium nitrate and ammonium hydroxide isnt the ammonium hydroxide still mixed in with the sdium nitrate? how do i seperate it? and I just want to be sure this whats called a double displacement reaction?

cyanureeves
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heat will drive off the amonia but if it still smells then you probably can get more nitrate out of it.
Steve_hi
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Thanks cyanureeves
So if the ammonia is driven off by the heat that leaves the OH ion hydroxide does this also decompose or get driven off by heat and if so which one leaves first the OH or NH4
Rogeryermaw
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in the reaction between ammonium nitrate and sodium hydroxide, if you use water to dissolve the chemicals, that water will absorb the released ammonia and the hydroxide ions will be consumed in the formation of water. this reaction, however, forms its own water so none is really necessary. just use patience. if you do not use water then the off gassing of ammonia will be much more energetic as there is much less available water to absorb it. one mole each of the nitrate and the hydroxide will yield one mole each of sodium nitrate (s), ammonia (g) and water (l).

NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub> + NaOH -> NH<sub>3</sub> + NaNO<sub>3</sub> + H<sub>2</sub>

elementcollector1
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Any brands at Walgreens that sell the AN cold-packs? I remember seeing some there but they wouldn't say the contents on the package.

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vmelkon
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 Quote: Originally posted by Acetic Acid You paid 19.95 for 500 grams of NH4NO3. That's a pretty good deal. However, in instant cold packs a few weeks ago, I paid $5.29 for two instant cold packs. They look very pure and the contents were around 150 grams each. You can buy as many as you want and you won't be questioned about it. I bought this http://paramedic-canada.com/premiers-soins/chaud-froid/insta... from Walmart for 2.38$. It says "fertilizer ammonium nitrate" but it looks very clean and I dissolved in water ---looks crystal clear. I added some H2SO4, no precipitate so there are no Ca++ ions. It contains 137 g.

It is possible that your Walmart won't have it and I have seen other packs from the same company that had urea instead of NH4NO3.
violet sin
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@ rogeryermaw not being a jerk but.. you are missing something in your equation there.... you have a NO3- and a OH- radicals adding to 4 oxygen on left & only NO3- and some lonely H2 for a total of 3 oxygen on the right...

on another note,.. seems like you could use the NH3 waste from the alkali hydroxide route to alkali nitrates, for feedstock gas in making HNO3. by catalytic decomp to NO2 and subsequent absorption, no? maybe runn through a CaCl2 scrubber or cold catch to dry it. but if you were into that kind of thing could be nice to start with NH4NO3 and double(theoretically) your nitrate content. I mean if you were trying to mess around to get NH3 to try your catalyst any how why not get some NaNO3 you could also use to make acid or play with as is. I haven't bought any KOH yet so thats why I said sodium salt. red devil lye is readily available to me

just a thought, I haven't made many posts yet. So I hope this was on topic enough

[Edited on 26-9-2012 by violet sin]
Rogeryermaw
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no you are correct. one mole each of ammonium nitrate and sodium hydroxide yields one mole each of sodium nitrate, ammonia gas and water. think i just forgot to type the last "O" at the right end of the equation.

[Edited on 26-9-2012 by Rogeryermaw]
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition » Cold pack disappointment Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues