freedompyro
holmes1880
Posts: 116
Registered: 16-6-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Freezing NM out of 30% Hobby Fuel.
I was reading that you could freeze NM out of 30% NM hobby fuel via dry ice and acetone. My question is what will freeze first (Methanol or NM) and
how do you test the purity of the NM?
I have half a gallon of NM still from a gallon I bought years ago... But the whole drivers license/signature/list thing is kind of annoying when you
buy it.
I recall doing a dry ice bath before at one time for some reason but remember using ethanol I think... Why not ethanol/dry ice instead of acetone?
Also, I think my NM from years ago has absorbed a little water. Can that be frozen out too?
[Edited on 17-6-2011 by freedompyro]
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Melting point of NitroMethane = -29c
Melting point of Methanol = -98c
Distill for optimal dryness.
acetone is cheaper in my neck of the woods.
ps. You will have to learn the use the search engine for some simple questions to get along here.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
bahamuth
Hazard to Others
Posts: 384
Registered: 3-11-2009
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Under stimulated
|
|
Did this some tima ago.., worked like a charm, but have yet have time to use it as intended....
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13408#...
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
|
|
|
freedompyro
holmes1880
Posts: 116
Registered: 16-6-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I did look around. The threads had very "scattered and random" information about it.
Vacuum distillation is the only safe way of distilling NM as far as I know.
|
|
|
IndependentBoffin
Hazard to Others
Posts: 150
Registered: 15-4-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Why not forget about separating out the nitromethane and instead nitrate the NM-methanol mixture to get NM-methyl nitrate?
I can sell the following:
1) Various high purity non-ferrous metals - Ni, Co, Ta, Zr, Mo, Ti, Nb.
2) Alkex para-aramid Korean Kevlar analogue fabric (about 50% Du Pont's prices)
3) NdFeB magnets
4) High purity technical ceramics
|
|
|
Bot0nist
International Hazard
Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Streching my cotyledons.
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by freedompyro  |
I did look around. The threads had very "scattered and random" information about it.
Vacuum distillation is the only safe way of distilling NM as far as I know. |
I meant Google to find simple things like melting points and other chemical/physical properties.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
|
|
|
IndependentBoffin
Hazard to Others
Posts: 150
Registered: 15-4-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Besides just nitrating the methanol to get methyl nitrate (if explosives is your intention), if getting pure NM is your intention, has anyone looked
at oxidising the methanol into an aldehyde or carboxylic acid?
Both should have properties sufficiently distinct from NM to allow efficient separation instead of having to mess around with the NM-methanol
azeotrope.
What about using an oxygen concentrator to produce higher concentration oxygen (using difference in diffusion rates of oxygen/nitrogen into a porous
adsorbent, no KMNO<sub>4</sub> and other expensive reagents needed) and a platinum catalyst as in "Heyns oxidation"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidation_of_primary_alcohols_t...
Alternatively, what about destroying the methanol using a methanol reformer (high operating temps. might destroy NM too)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_reformer
Or by consuming the methanol by setting up your own direct methanol fuel cell?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_methanol_fuel_cell
I can sell the following:
1) Various high purity non-ferrous metals - Ni, Co, Ta, Zr, Mo, Ti, Nb.
2) Alkex para-aramid Korean Kevlar analogue fabric (about 50% Du Pont's prices)
3) NdFeB magnets
4) High purity technical ceramics
|
|
|
freedompyro
holmes1880
Posts: 116
Registered: 16-6-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I don't really care for methyl nitrate... The idea of having highly explosive vapors floating around just isn't that appealing...
Those methanol fuel cells sound like a fun project, however upon reading up on them they need a specific solution of methanol and water... And can
easily lose half of the volatiles through evaporation.
Was just looking for a simpler way to get it from the hobby shop instead of the multiple online NM retailers. Anything more painstaking than
freezing/distilling isn't really my thing. If you can freeze it to 90%+ concentration with a little dry ice and ethanol/acetone that's good enough for
me.
[Edited on 19-6-2011 by freedompyro]
|
|
|
IndependentBoffin
Hazard to Others
Posts: 150
Registered: 15-4-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by freedompyro | I don't really care for methyl nitrate... The idea of having highly explosive vapors floating around just isn't that appealing...
Those methanol fuel cells sound like a fun project, however upon reading up on them they need a specific solution of methanol and water... And can
easily lose half of the volatiles through evaporation.
Was just looking for a simpler way to get it from the hobby shop instead of the multiple online NM retailers. Anything more painstaking than
freezing/distilling isn't really my thing. If you can freeze it to 90%+ concentration with a little dry ice and ethanol/acetone that's good enough for
me.
[Edited on 19-6-2011 by freedompyro] |
Removing methanol from the mixture by refreezing is very time consuming and a multi-stage batch process. A continuous process is much more convenient.
You don't need a specific solution of methanol + water via the fuel cell method. You're not interested in generating power or cell efficiency - just
on removing the methanol. As long as you don't poison the cell and it is steadily destroying the methanol 
I wonder what happens if you add crushed liver (for the alcohol dehydrogenase enzyme) to the NM-methanol mixture?  Is there something in the liver that would metabolise the NM too?
I can sell the following:
1) Various high purity non-ferrous metals - Ni, Co, Ta, Zr, Mo, Ti, Nb.
2) Alkex para-aramid Korean Kevlar analogue fabric (about 50% Du Pont's prices)
3) NdFeB magnets
4) High purity technical ceramics
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
Boiling point difference is big enough to get a decent separation from a few step evaporation/condensation (distillation).
Methanol BP 65°C.
Nitromethane BP 101°C.
For the rest, there is a big difference of solubility in water:
Methanol is 100% soluble in water.
NM is slightly soluble...this can be reduced when using some mineral acid.
I guess that if there is mostly methanol and NM in the mix, then adding slowly solid NaOH will scavenge the NM as its yellow-orange-brown salt (sodium
nitronate NaO-N(O)=CH2) more than certainly almost unsoluble in methanol.
After isolation of the solid...slow acidification with vinegar will allow to collect nitromethane back.
Alternatively dry NH3 gas can be dissolved into the NM/Methanol mix to get the ammonium nitronate salt what should follow the same process as the
sodium nitronate.
[Edited on 20-6-2011 by PHILOU Zrealone]
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
franklyn
International Hazard
Posts: 3026
Registered: 30-5-2006
Location: Da Big Apple
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
* Important to note that nitronate salt is a sensitive primary explosive requiring handling precautions.
.
|
|
|
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
Posts: 2893
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic
|
|
Good point....for the ammonia...and for the sodium it would favourize the initiation by a detonator.
I think it is the anhydrous white nitronate from metallic Na and dry NM that is sensitive initiating stuff...
Here you would have at least a monohydrate for the sodium and NH3 will react much slower...
CH3-NO2 + NaOH --> NaO-N(O)=CH2.H2O
Never had the single evidence of shock or flame sensitivity of the orange/brown Na nitronate. 
But wel for the calcium nitronate
PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)
"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
