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Author: Subject: What's the chance this is an LE entrapment scheme???
albqbrian
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[*] posted on 30-6-2011 at 23:27
What's the chance this is an LE entrapment scheme???


Check out this listing, along with the sellers other items:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Acetic-Anhydride-Practical-grade-1-liter...


Either eBay is knowingly (I've warned them) letting serious illegal drug precursors be sold, which is bad; or they're facilitating an LE entrapment operation, which is despicable!

The other stuff the guy is selling: iodine, all the caine's: procaine, benzocaine, etc.; oh yeah, and Hydroiodic Acid!!

Amazing :(
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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 1-7-2011 at 03:13


The prices are kinda high for a 'sting' . . .

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[*] posted on 1-7-2011 at 03:30


I cannot assess how bad the *caine's are, but to me, the others are all legal chemicals with many uses outside the drug-scene. Iodine, hydroquinone, potassium iodide and hydrogen iodide are all normal chemicals to my opinion without serious issues. All of these I can buy without problem and without legal issues.

Even acetic anhydride is not a bad thing to me and I can buy that as well without much hassle (you only have to email an intent of usage to the seller and this email is filed). It can be used as a drug precursor in combination with some opium-like compounds, but then you first also have to get these opium-like compounds and these indeed should be strongly regulated.

So, to my opinion this eBay auction is perfectly legal from the point of view of drug-manufacture. Other issues about safely shipping acetic anhydride may remain. I can buy acetic anhydride, but I have to pick up the stuff locally, but that is another issue.




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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 1-7-2011 at 04:11


Quote:
I can buy acetic anhydride, but I have to pick up the stuff locally, but that is another issue.

(sigh!) One more perk of life in an advanced society, woelen . . . ?

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[*] posted on 1-7-2011 at 09:17


Quote: Originally posted by woelen  
So, to my opinion this eBay auction is perfectly legal from the point of view of drug-manufacture.
Sorry, but there are US-specific laws that apply here about iodine and other List I chemicals. The first thing to know is that "legal" in the USA is split into two halves: legal to buy and legal to sell. Iodine is legal to buy; that's not the issue. Selling, however, requires (1) registration and (2) reporting for each sale. It's possible that the seller has adequate registration, but I doubt it, because the annual fee is high and isn't worth if all you're selling is gram quantities. There's also no notification to buyers that they would need to provide "Real Name" (YMMV) information post-sale, which isn't a necessity to have an eBay account.

Also, there's no de minimis exemption, not even for a 1 gram sale. I think that's stupid, but it's the law. There's also no defense for "alternate uses".
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[*] posted on 1-7-2011 at 13:57


Look at the history, he is a real ebay seller. A very gray area seller.

Yikes he was selling phosphorus "fertilizer" too.




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[*] posted on 1-7-2011 at 15:23


Quote:

Selling, however, requires (1) registration and (2) reporting for each sale.


I thought I remember reading that if they sold under a certain quantity reporting was not required. Can someone confirm or deny that?
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[*] posted on 1-7-2011 at 16:16


Quote: Originally posted by 497  
Quote:

Selling, however, requires (1) registration and (2) reporting for each sale.


I thought I remember reading that if they sold under a certain quantity reporting was not required. Can someone confirm or deny that?


There are threshold exemptions for various chemicals, but some chemicals (including iodine, phosphorus, and ephedrine) have no threshold established. Get the scoop from the Code of Federal Regulations right here. Note that there is a record-keeping requirement rather than a reporting requirement: you're required to keep records at your place of business, but the government will ask for your records when it wants them. You don't have to provide copies of your records without prompting. There are exceptions in CFR 1310.03 and 1310.05. You must report to the DEA divisional office (not merely record) transactions involving tableting or encapsulating machines, regulated transactions with unusual circumstances (large quantities, unusual payment methods, or other grounds for suspicion), transactions involving persons described to you by the DEA, or mail-order transactions involving ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, pheynylpronanolamine, GHB, or products containing these chemicals.

It appears that in practice restrictions go beyond what's spelled out in the CFR. According to the CFR, you only have to record (e.g.) safrole transactions if the total delivered to a customer is more than 4 kg per month. In theory you should be able to do a good business, without burdensome record-keeping or reporting, simply by setting up Rootbeer Aroma LLC and selling a maximum of 1 kilogram per month per customer. In practice, safrole has not been readily available for a while in the USA, and I suspect it is a supply-side market failure rather than demand-side.




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[*] posted on 1-7-2011 at 18:47


Quote: Originally posted by albqbrian  

Either eBay is knowingly (I've warned them) letting serious illegal drug precursors be sold, which is bad; or they're facilitating an LE entrapment operation, which is despicable!


So what do you call people that rat out such sellers to Ebay and post about them on this forum?

Heroes I suppose.

Here's your pat on the back. We're all proud of you.
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albqbrian
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[*] posted on 2-7-2011 at 03:26


Quote: Originally posted by Maus  
Quote: Originally posted by albqbrian  

Either eBay is knowingly (I've warned them) letting serious illegal drug precursors be sold, which is bad; or they're facilitating an LE entrapment operation, which is despicable!


So what do you call people that rat out such sellers to Ebay and post about them on this forum?

Heroes I suppose.

Here's your pat on the back. We're all proud of you.



Nice first post. Moron.

Guys who sell stuff like this are the ones who make it more and more difficult for us to do legitimate purchases of chemicals. TPTB just keep "squeezing" in the name of The War on Drugs.

Come on: he offers Acetic Anhydride, Iodine, and Hydroiodic Acid among his handful of chemicals. In a perfect world that would be fine and we'd buy it as we needed. But it ain't perfect. One way or another he's providing another reason that will cost us. Or he will entrap some stupid kid (hmm now who might fall in that category???) into buying stuff that will get them a few years of prison hell. That's why I told eBay. I can't believe this isn't an LE operation. I don't want someone sucked into prison because of this.

So make your snide little remarks boyo. Remember I'm trying to keep folks out of trouble. Now run along, your mom is calling you.

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watson.fawkes
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[*] posted on 2-7-2011 at 05:49


Quote: Originally posted by Polverone  
There are threshold exemptions for various chemicals, but some chemicals (including iodine, phosphorus, and ephedrine) have no threshold established. Get the scoop from the Code of Federal Regulations right here. Note that there is a record-keeping requirement rather than a reporting requirement: you're required to keep records at your place of business, but the government will ask for your records when it wants them.
All true, although as you point out, in this case record-keeping is half-tantamount to reporting. Also, there is elective reporting by the seller at any time, that is, there's no presumption of privacy for the buyer.

I'd like to point out, though, that the List I regulation this is part of is about as well-constructed as it's possible to do. The rules are all public and published. You can find out the rules, the enforcement agency responsible (DEA) does a good job of explaining them, and everything is out on the table. In contrast, there are similar practices involving explosives and chemical weapons precursors, in addition to state-specific practices, that are the complete opposite: they're opaque, you can't find the rules, you don't know what information is flowing behind the scenes, and you don't know who's participating. This is an extra-legal practice, and I don't mean illegal. I mean that much of this is done by voluntary cooperation, outside the scope of mandates, and therefore also outside any notion of checks and balances.

There's a choice between the lesser of two evils here: a licensing and recording regime that's transparent on one hand and a covert practice of snitching on the other. I am definitely in the camp finds the covert reporting far more obnoxious. It undermines basic trust in government by violating the spirit of transparency.
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[*] posted on 2-7-2011 at 10:47


Quote: Originally posted by albqbrian  
Either eBay is knowingly (I've warned them) letting serious illegal drug precursors be sold, which is bad; or they're facilitating an LE entrapment operation, which is despicable!


Quote: Originally posted by albqbrian  

Guys who sell stuff like this are the ones who make it more and more difficult for us to do legitimate purchases of chemicals. TPTB just keep "squeezing" in the name of The War on Drugs.


I rather disagree, since the business-oriented companies aren't going to sell interesting things to you anyways, unless one jumps through some hoops such as DEA forms, ID, business ID, bank info, etc. There are already few other options because most could not care less about a few dollars from individuals. And sales of acetic anhydride in this fashion aren't going to make it more difficult to obtain acetic acid or maleic anhydride. And acetic anhydride is much too useful for you, personally, to decide that it is a serious illegal drug precursor and must be erased. I agree completely with Maus, and am graying above the ears, at least on the outside.

There are obviously state regulations which no one is mentioning in the discussion of federal legislation/DEA self-legislation. Most if not all states have some version of the model statute that speaks of providing certain chemicals and reasonable expectation, suspicion, and intent, it's all kind of vague and applied selectively. It tends to scare retailers, as LE does try to do so. There are several state chemical laws more restrictive than federal laws, (for instance bans on possession of RP, the TX glassware regs.) and who knows what all local storage laws. CERTAIN chemicals ARE to be reported under these statutes, after obtaining ID, end use etc. declarations.

I note that under the heading of "DETECTION OF CLAN METH LABS" in http://www.ncdistrictattorney.org/traininghandout/methlab04.... begins with:
Surveillance
- Chemical supply companies
- "Reverse sales" of precursors
and on the next page:
Business sales records
- Reportable chemical sales by statute
- Sales reps question large sales of chemicals to individuals

But all I really wanted to post was that you can't send 1 liter bottles of acetic anhydride by USPS, legally. And therefore it is a violation of ebay listing policy. 2 pints, ok. Obviously acetic anhydride is not illegal to possess, and obviously this does not preclude LE interest in the buyer or seller.




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[*] posted on 5-7-2011 at 08:22


I wish this wasn't even an issue. Foolish people making money off other's weakness to addiction - an extreme example of exploitation that can go so far as to result in death. Yet the other side of the coin being unprecedented regulation of things that are of use to many of us in ways that are not harmful, and in extreme examples extremely helpful.

Two parties, the money-making drug peddlers and cookers and the federal governments striving for complete control, continually in a whirlwind of regulations and black markets. Forever outsmarting the last generation in ways of manipulation and trickery. To really succeed in either case is to be both empathetical and intelligent, usually 2 traits missing on either fronts.

Too bad this is the case in such a time of resource prosperity, but what would you expect in such a consumerism nation as this?
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[*] posted on 8-7-2011 at 18:52


ebay has law enforcement monitoring all chemical transactions.
even the so called private ones.
try to do the deal outside of ebay.
if they are a sting they will be adverse to this.
just buy mundane everyday stuff on ebay you'll be alright.
you can even buy single punch pill presses on ebay.
but there is a good chance the transaction feedback is falsified and the account too.
ebay cooperates fully with LE.
i would'nt get too paranoid about it, just be mindful and buy commonplace items leave the rest alone.
as far as safrole goes you can buy it but most sellers want a dea form to submit to dea and a waiting period.
simple solution buy it from china.
this is a prime example of an ebay sting setup

also notice in thier feedback they have a shill buying phosphorous "fertilizer" with frequencies of days between purchases.
real fishy there.
i would'nt trust it.



http://cgi.ebay.com/Boron-Trioxide-Boric-anhydride-Reagent-8...

they say they are out of japan you go to the site all the pictures are the same the whois traces back to nevada.
STING!!!

[Edited on 9-7-2011 by jon]

[Edited on 9-7-2011 by jon]
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[*] posted on 8-7-2011 at 20:04


I've bought triphenylphosphine from them and the package was shipped out of korea, I doubt they are a sting.

Also to the OP were you looking for AA or just suprised to see it, I've bought some from a company talked about here alot if you need to pm me. its alot cheaper also.

[Edited on 9-7-2011 by pip]
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[*] posted on 8-7-2011 at 21:55


scary two days ago there was only one place on ebay selling malonic acid, now they are too? So lame... Who makes/uses/abuses barbituates anyways? Knoevengal condensation is a more likely reason to seek this chemical. Sucks having to dodge things like this to do legitimate chemistry...

[Edited on 9-7-2011 by smaerd]
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[*] posted on 9-7-2011 at 01:49


Quote: Originally posted by Maus  
Quote: Originally posted by albqbrian  

Either eBay is knowingly (I've warned them) letting serious illegal drug precursors be sold, which is bad; or they're facilitating an LE entrapment operation, which is despicable!


So what do you call people that rat out such sellers to Ebay and post about them on this forum?

Heroes I suppose.

Here's your pat on the back. We're all proud of you.


Neh, report them...

Wankers like this make money selling grey-area stuff, they keep records so that THEY can do a deal, keeping them out of jail (theoretically). I don't like their chances on this one however, they are selling List 1 precursors to pretty much anyone.

It is a shabby money-grubbing scheme, that will come unstuck landing the seller and every buyer who touches it in jail. There is no excuse when dealing with that level of precursor, none.




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[*] posted on 9-7-2011 at 11:32


i don't know i bought gallons of safrole oil no problems/no questions for years i think it's just who you know.
nobody is in prison.
as a side note i had a hell of a lot of fun too
of course you really have to investigate the situation you can't just take a blind leap.


[Edited on 9-7-2011 by jon]

[Edited on 9-7-2011 by jon]
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[*] posted on 9-7-2011 at 20:13


I bought a liter of acetic anhydride about a year ago. Things like phosphorus, ephedra, and safrole are a no-no.
Yesterday there was two listing for red phosphorus that are now gone. The only other thing this guy sells is iodine.
If buying a chemical makes you nervous then there is a good reason to stay away.
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[*] posted on 10-7-2011 at 01:32
Querying the seller mentioned by the OP


Quote: Originally posted by jon  

this is a prime example of an ebay sting setup

...

they say they are out of japan you go to the site all the pictures are the same the whois traces back to nevada.
STING!!!



Jon, I think the ebay seller the original poster was referring to was 'raumeen704';
http://shop.ebay.com/raumeen704/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&am...

That is, the guy selling the anhydride.

The seller 'reagent shop' has had a few positive testimonies here, check the 'PPh3 - WTB or trade' post for example, in this forum.

Quote: Originally posted by smaerd  
scary two days ago there was only one place on ebay selling malonic acid, now they are too?

[Edited on 9-7-2011 by smaerd]


The seller who is hawking the acetic anhydride also sells the malonic acid in various amounts: I presume that the seller 'reagent shop' was the one place selling malonic acid, before two days ago when 'raumeen704' started selling it?

Quote: Originally posted by albqbrian  


Either eBay is knowingly (I've warned them) letting serious illegal drug precursors be sold, which is bad; or they're facilitating an LE entrapment operation, which is despicable!

The other stuff the guy is selling: iodine, all the caine's: procaine, benzocaine, etc.; oh yeah, and Hydroiodic Acid!!

Amazing :(


He has at least one purchaser called 'thechemicalsource' or something, who regularly gives high feedback, and happens to sell the same stuff (procaine, benzocaine etc).

The seller in question has, on written, on his 'about me' section:
"i work for a lab chemical company. i can supply small amounts of chemicals all the way up to 1 metric ton."

On the malonic acid page, he has written:

"I have over 15,000 other chemicals I can get, please let me know if you need anything special."
http://cgi.ebay.com/Malonic-Acid-Reagent-100-grams-/25085097...

I wrote to him asking for some chemicals I could use to practice some of the titrations in our analytical chem course. He quoted me some prices.

After some back and forth, he became reluctant when I asked the transaction be done via eBay and not outside of it. He said shipping would be very, very high, and seemed disinterested after I narrowed my queries down to some stuff like KHP, and indicators.

I presumed I'd have my cash taken and not be sent the chemicals, were the purchase to go ahead.

Quote: Originally posted by aliced25  

Neh, report them...

Wankers like this make money selling grey-area stuff, they keep records so that THEY can do a deal, keeping them out of jail (theoretically). I don't like their chances on this one however, they are selling List 1 precursors to pretty much anyone.

It is a shabby money-grubbing scheme, that will come unstuck landing the seller and every buyer who touches it in jail. There is no excuse when dealing with that level of precursor, none.


From the seller's statements about getting massive amounts of chemicals, about having access to 15,000 chemicals etc, I start to wonder if it's just a guy trying to rip people off, rather than actually sell.
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[*] posted on 20-7-2011 at 12:32


I just noticed that reagent shop carris calcium Hypophosphite which also is list 1 dea I'm starting to think they are intentionally targeting cooks
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[*] posted on 20-7-2011 at 14:00


Reagent shop is based on Korea, or Japan I believe. As far as I know they have a good reputation - they sell a variety of things.

The seller referred to by the original poster had a different name, and was selling a very limited number of chemicals.
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[*] posted on 20-7-2011 at 16:58
LE


They also carry sodium and potassium cyanide, methylamine and others

Has anyone seen the add in ebay for sassafras oil with a high safrole content
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=30057...
I reported the item to ebay 3 times and nothing happened. Maybe it just slipped through the cracks and nobody noticed

I am sorry I meant to add this to the subject below LE trap

[Edited on 21-7-2011 by weldit]
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[*] posted on 20-7-2011 at 18:43


Can you not imagine that ReagentShop are a chemical company who are supplying chemicals? They have 1,323 items listed on ebay.

They trade internationally. Why should a Korean company change their stock-list to conform to the laws of the USA? Don't buy it if it's illegal. It's not a conspiracy. In most of the world hypophosphites are unrestricted.
What a paranoid group of people. Life in the land of freedom..

Anyway, I bought some PPh3 from them recently and I would highly recommend them.
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[*] posted on 20-7-2011 at 19:32


LOL! Weldit it says ''23 sold'' but they only have feedback from 11 people...
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