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starman
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 10:36


My personal feeling is something akin to violation.That this 'crusader' has taken from our collective wisdom to assist him in mass murder.That he actually 'credits' a specific thread on this site in his mass murder manual.
I would really value Polverone's thoughts on how his baby has been abused.




Chemistry- The journey from the end of physics to the beginning of life.(starman)
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Fusionfire
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 11:24


Guys come on. If we go down the slippery slope of restricting anything that might be abused to kill people we'll all end up curfewed in padded rooms and using mandatory Zimmer frames :D

Peach, cars may have a positive benefit but they kill more people per year than guns, explosives, poisons, etc. Don't you think their cons outweighs their benefits and ban them too? :)

On the whole I think explosives have had a positive effect on humanity. The mining, quarrying, O&G, etc industries use them extensively. Energetics which can encompass fuels, propellants, pyrotechnics and explosives are literally the driving force for modern engineering - either directly (e.g. internal combustion engines) or indirectly (e.g. power plants for retail energy).

Besides if you are going down the fascist path and censoring free speech then remember that the kewls and terrorists can go to Usenet where on some boards, there is no moderation at all. At least there is a culture of user responsibility and maturity here. We try to advise and educate those who may be set on a reckless path. In the wider WWW it is possible some people may be given bad advice by people just wanting to "see what happens" when acetone peroxide meets kewl :mad:
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hkparker
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 11:31


I support locking the explosives section. Its not censorship at all! Just a way to prevent reckless people from having the information they need to do something that could kill them. Believe me, I'm anti censorship, but I don't see this as an infringement on that.



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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 11:48


Quote: Originally posted by starman  
My personal feeling is something akin to violation.That this 'crusader' has taken from our collective wisdom to assist him in mass murder.That he actually 'credits' a specific thread on this site in his mass murder manual.

Let's just remember that this, er, 'conservative Christian' shot most of his victims - and does anyone really think that an absence of info on the web would have have prevented him building a bomb?


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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 12:43


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  
Quote: Originally posted by starman  
My personal feeling is something akin to violation.That this 'crusader' has taken from our collective wisdom to assist him in mass murder.That he actually 'credits' a specific thread on this site in his mass murder manual.

Let's just remember that this, er, 'conservative Christian' shot most of his victims - and does anyone really think that an absence of info on the web would have have prevented him building a bomb?


I despair sometimes. With all the knee jerk reactions at the rate we are going one day an engineering or science degree will need its applicants to be security-vetted :(

And no, a gun is not hard to make. Don't forget primitive guns were invented long before high explosives.
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AndersHoveland
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 13:18


Quote: Originally posted by starman  
My personal feeling is something akin to violation.That this 'crusader' has taken from our collective wisdom to assist him in mass murder.That he actually 'credits' a specific thread on this site in his mass murder manual.
I would really value Polverone's thoughts on how his baby has been abused.


As far as we know, it seems to have been a fertilizer bomb- not really the sort of thing discussed in the energetics section. Although the manifesto made an obscure mention to sciencemadness, and expressed the virtues of DDNP, it is highly doubtful that anything on this forum was used to make the bomb. A huge clump of dangerously unstable TATP or a stick of dynamite was probably used as the initiator. Information about organic peroxides was widespread on the internet before this forum appeared.

Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire  
Guys come on. If we go down the slippery slope of restricting anything that might be abused to kill people we'll all end up curfewed in padded rooms

Exactly, many of you are reacting instinctively and irrationally. Guns kill many more people than explosives do.




I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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Rogeryermaw
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 13:19


Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire  


I despair sometimes. With all the knee jerk reactions at the rate we are going one day an engineering or science degree will need its applicants to be security-vetted :(

And no, a gun is not hard to make. Don't forget primitive guns were invented long before high explosives.


one day? you mean now! sure, you can get into college and get a degree, but these days, entering the workforce in a chemical or technology related position already requires criminal and background checks. i personally had to go through a rigorous screening process to install networked security equipment. granted, it was for the military, but i am not military personnel. it was nice in that it gained me a mid-level security clearance, but i had to dig into over 10 years of my past including everyone i had known, all jobs i had held, all residences i had lived at for more than a week and entire life of criminal history. it took me about 6 months to compile all that information.




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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 13:22


Would it be a good idea to change the link/number for the thread he referenced so only people who searched for it here could find it? Something like 'sorry, the link you entered does not exist' when the link is used. Then only people who search for the thread can find it.

edit:
On second thought, that's useless. Anyone who wanted to investigate would definitely not be stopped by that.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by barley81]
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 13:22


Quote: Originally posted by Rogeryermaw  

these days, entering the workforce in a chemical or technology related position already requires criminal and background checks. i personally had to go through a rigorous screening process to install networked security equipment. granted, it was for the military, but i am not military personnel. it was nice in that it gained me a mid-level security clearance, but i had to dig into over 10 years of my past including everyone i had known, all jobs i had held, all residences i had lived at for more than a week and entire life of criminal history. it took me about 6 months to compile all that information.


That is because they have to protect against those pestilent Chinese stealing American technology and secrets. And it would not be "politically correct" to only put asians through the screening process. Just like middle easterners (and blacks who could come from muslim Africa) at the airport security.

Quote: Originally posted by barley81  
Would it be a good idea to change the link/number for the thread he referenced so only people who searched for it here could find it? Something like 'sorry, the link you entered does not exist' when the link is used. Then only people who search for the thread can find it.


I actually think that is a good idea. People in the government and media are not rational, they will not go to the trouble of circumventing this. It will not look good at all if anyone can just simply type in the link in the much publicized manifesto and come straight here. Yes, just simply move that particular thread somewhere else to change the exact web address.

In any case, the thread, which is about "purifying ammonium nitrate" would not really be very useful for making a large fertilizer bomb. Such procedures are nearly impossible to scale up to hundreds of kilos outside a factory. No terrorist is going to go to the immense trouble of trying to purify such large quantities of fertilizer. It should also be mentioned that ammonium nitrate in smaller quantities does not pose much of a threat at all; compared to the quantity of explosive needed to set it off, a half kilo is comparatively harmless.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by AndersHoveland]




I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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The WiZard is In
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 13:28


Quote: Originally posted by hkparker  
I support locking the explosives section. Its not censorship at all! Just a way to prevent reckless people from having the information they need to do something that could kill them. Believe me, I'm anti censorship, but I don't see this as an infringement on that.


Why stop there .....



New Scientist
9 vi 01

EACH YEAR around this time Feedback's favourite government report
appears-the Home and Leisure Accident Surveillance System report from
Britain's Department of Trade and Industry. It gives figures for accidents reported
by people admitted to a sample group of British hospitals and then gives
extrapolated estimates for the country as a whole.

First the bad news in this year's report, which is based on 1999 data: the toll of
accidents caused by tea cosies is up again, with a national estimate of 37 tea
cosy injuries, compared with 20 the previous year. Equally alarming, the number
of accidents caused by place mats-a menace we have paid too little attention to
in the past-is up from 157 to 165 across the country as a whole.

These worrying figures are somewhat balanced by a welcome decline in
another area of concern-sponge and loofah accidents. The shocking previous
total of 996 nationwide is now down to 787.

But the major causes of concern are still with us. The number of people
hospitalised after a trouser accident (up from 5137 to 5945) is worryingly high,
while the drop in injuries inflicted by armchairs (down from 18,690 to 16,662)
leaves little room for complacency. Hospitalisations caused by socks and tights
have also risen (10,773 compared to 9843 previously), while injuries inflicted by
vegetables remain unacceptably high at 13,132 compared with the previous
year's 12,362.

The number of accidents involving tree trunks has also risen from 1777 to
1810, while leaf accidents have soared from 664 to 1171, with a similar increase
in birdbath accidents from 117 to 311.

Many people will also be shocked by the number of accidents caused by
beanbags, which has risen from 957 to 1317. The seriousness of this menace
becomes clear when measured against the 329 injuries caused by meat cleavers
or the 439 caused by rat or mouse poison.

In fact, the report makes it clearer than ever that our homes are full of
unacknowledged dangers. It identifies 3421 people nationwide as having been
injured by clothes baskets, while other threats include dust pans (146 injuries),
bread bins (91), talcum powder (73), toiletroll holders (329), clogs (622), false
teeth (933) and wellington boots (5615).

As in the past, printed magazines like New Scientist caused far more injuries
than chainsaws-4371 compared with 1207.

So remember-you can't be too careful.

----
Beware of your bathtub!

http://tinyurl.com/4yyemyq


-------------
From his rantings ...


The first week of my “explosive research phase” I googled for 200
hours over the course of 2 weeks. I was worried that I had to use
obscure search engines if google had banned many search phrases
or sources, but to my surprise google seemed to be fully functional
in this regard. There are a lot of various explosives forums around
(f example: roguesci.org/theforum) which will discuss in depth
concerning hundreds of different recipes and methods of
manufacture explosives. There are hundreds of various books out
there about this subject. However, most of them are quite difficult
to locate unless you know the title of the book. I will provide a list
of descent books you can locate:

List

Improvised Primary Explosives (PDF)
Revised Black Book – A Guide To Field-Manufactured Explosives –
William Wallace
Home and Recreational Use of High Explosives – Ragnar Benson (PDF)
Igniter, High Temp, How to make it (PDF)
Ragnars Detonators (PDF)
ANNM (PDF)
Nitromethane explosives (PDF)
Nitromethane Liquid Explosive (PDF)
Mujahideen Explosives Handbook (PDF)


I also found two libraries on thepiratebay.org called:

“Forbidden Knowledge” (15 books)

._3842828-How-to-Make-Acetone-Peroxide
._Disaster Preparation Survival
._Elements_of_military_science
._Explosives_Black_Book_Companion
._Guerrilla_s Arsenal
._Home_Workshop_Explosives_-_Uncle_Fester
._How to Start Train a Militia Unit
._IRA-Handbook
._Ragnar_Benson_-_Homemade_Detonators
._Synthesis II
._The Anarchists Cookbook
._The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives
._THE_PREPARATORY_MANUAL_OF_EXPLOSIVES
._THE-COMPLETE-KITCHEN-IMPROVISED-PLASTIC-EXPLOSIVES
._Uncle-Fester-Secrets-of-Methamphetamine Manufacture-7th-Edition

and another really large file containing more than 200 books and a
ton of files:

“Explosives Books Collection” (639 files)


You do not have to spend 2 weeks studying the above literature as
I have included the most important information (providing you
manage to acquire the materials).



djh
---
Byda the Eco Nuts have posted their —

Starting Fires With Electrical Timers :
An Earth Liberation Front Guide


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Rogeryermaw
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 13:32


@ Anders certainly true, but the fact remains that this wave of invasive procedures is not part of a near future but part of the here and now. and it is infuriating because, like the protests about gun control, further controls on chemicals will not stop the determined terrorist. it will only serve to confound the law-abiding. those who wish to do crime will find a way and those of us who want to legally explore nature are being ushered away.

[Edited on 28-7-2011 by Rogeryermaw]




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The WiZard is In
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 13:33
Dangerous Information


Time to borrow this from my HD yet again.


Park Elliott Dietz, I M. D., M. P. H., Ph. D.

Dangerous Information: Product Tampering and
Poisoning Advice in Revenge and Murder Manuals

REFERENCE: Dietz, P. E., "Dangerous Information: Product Tampering and
Poisoning Advice in Revenge and Murder Manuals,"
Journal of Forensic Sciences. Vol. 33, No. 5, Sept. 1988, pp. 1206-1217.

ABSTRACT: This paper reviews 18 publications that advocate the use of product
tampering and other poisoning methods as techniques for exacting revenge
against individuals and corporations, as methods of committing murder, and for
other criminal purposes. Several of the particular techniques recommended in
these publications subsequently have been used in criminal tampering incidents.
The published sources of technical guidance for the would-be tamperer and
poisoner are examined in detail to alert forensic scientists, law enforcement
authorities, and the food and drug industry to the particular techniques that are
being advocated. Possible criminal and civil liability of the publishers and authors
is discussed. The author suggests that food and drug retailers consider the
wisdom of selling magazines that advertise the availability of revenge and
murder manuals advocating product tampering and poisoning, that food and
drug manufacturers test the effects on their products of the contaminants that
are being recommended, and that investigators be alert to the existence of such
manuals and mail-order suppliers of poisons.

KEYWORDS: criminalistics, product tampering, poisoning, toxicology. food and
drugs, terrorism



Attachment: Dangerous-Information.doc (73kB)
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Polverone
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 13:35


I have seen the link to the thread in the killer's manifesto. It is not surprising, because that thread is one of the top Google hits for "purifying ammonium nitrate" and apparently his research was web-based. Imagine what dangerous things he could have learned if he went to a library instead of just the wifi hot spot at McDonald's!

The Energetic Materials section is not going to be hidden or retrospectively censored. Discussion of weapons (bombs, missiles, grenades, guns, mines) is still disallowed as it has been from the beginning. Discussion of pyrotechnic, propellant, and explosive materials is still allowed as it has been from the beginning. As I have written before, after several years of collective discussion it is unlikely that someone really has novel ideas or questions about (e.g.) sensitizing ammonium nitrate, manipulating organic peroxides, or the like. Endless rehashing of these topics should be reported to a moderator so it can be terminated with a curt "UTFSE." But sometimes discussion goes on for years without terminal degeneration: people are still writing new things about the electrolytic production of perchlorates, even though the process has been known for more than 100 years.

I confess that I read only a fraction of the material posted in Energetic Materials because I'm currently not equipped for or interested in pursuing that sort of chemistry myself. Quicksilver and I both agree that there needs to be more action taken against posts in that section that appear to be lazy and/or directed toward a quick thrill or malign use rather than any sort of real research or learning. I have noticed that people sometimes do things like post "this thread really needs help from a mod" in the thread itself instead of reporting the thread and associated concerns to a moderator. Invoking the name of a moderator doesn't draw his attention like Lord Voldemort!

[Edited on 7-28-2011 by Polverone]




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Fusionfire
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 14:25


Quote: Originally posted by Rogeryermaw  
Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire  


I despair sometimes. With all the knee jerk reactions at the rate we are going one day an engineering or science degree will need its applicants to be security-vetted :(

And no, a gun is not hard to make. Don't forget primitive guns were invented long before high explosives.


one day? you mean now! sure, you can get into college and get a degree, but these days, entering the workforce in a chemical or technology related position already requires criminal and background checks. i personally had to go through a rigorous screening process to install networked security equipment. granted, it was for the military, but i am not military personnel. it was nice in that it gained me a mid-level security clearance, but i had to dig into over 10 years of my past including everyone i had known, all jobs i had held, all residences i had lived at for more than a week and entire life of criminal history. it took me about 6 months to compile all that information.


I meant security vetted to even get a degree. I'm aware of the vetting process for some jobs ;)
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Rogeryermaw
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[*] posted on 28-7-2011 at 16:08


still, i think we are already getting close to that. criminal convictions can affect the acceptance and student financial aid processes, but this is true of any degree or major in which you may be interested...this is more akin to "the system" keeping people down in their place. sort of a "gods and clods" policy. but yeah, you are definitely right. attention like this can do our little community no good. maybe it is for all of us to be vigilant enough and keep a sharp eye out for activity like this so that it may be reported to the mods. also do not offer information and assistance on topics like this. the data is out there and can be found by anyone willing to do their own digging.

[Edited on 29-7-2011 by Rogeryermaw]




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[*] posted on 31-7-2011 at 15:53


Great...

Report: Suspect in Norway attacks bought chemicals, tools on eBay




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S.C. Wack
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[*] posted on 31-7-2011 at 16:09


Yeah it was shocking to see CNN and ST sensationalizing this...I always wonder if it's chemostupidity they actually believe, sales, or agenda, in all chem hysteria. OMFG HE BOUGHT SULFUR ON EBAY. It will be nonsense like this that gets ebay to finally stop selling chems.



"You're going to be all right, kid...Everything's under control." Yossarian, to Snowden
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[*] posted on 1-8-2011 at 07:17


The problem is not with the availability of materials that can be used to hurt people, the problem is with the desire to do so, and the means to pro-actively detect this mental condition before something like this happens. We are shocked and mourn the losses too.



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Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com
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[*] posted on 1-8-2011 at 13:21


Webster Tarpleys analysis of the norway event:

http://www.youtube.com/user/WebsterTarpleyDotNet#p/u/0/DZAlO...

I have read the chem. part of his so called copy paste manifesto:

1) The Breiwik does not know a shit about chemistry, he thinks diesel is an oxidant and that boiling sulfiric acid results in NOx gasses.

2) He uses a tremendous effort to get aspirin for picrid acid synth, when he have acces to ANNM, kinepake, WHY ???

3) Hes so called blastingcap was made with the powder in shotgun shells and his own made DDNP. Is this NC powder very likely to go high order? maybee if compressed and initited with plenty of DDNP. (I dont think that an amateur like him got DDNP. )

4) The parts give fabricated impression.

5) Dino-media claims that the bomb was on 960 kg, sure baby yes! Even with a low VoD with this ammount of explosives the buildings around would have look like shit if any left. The explosive used were alumininium rich.

Something is seriusly wrong with this. Please read and judge for your self.

This terrorism will make everybody experimenting with chemicals on security police watsh lists. The states governments falsely belives that more laws and regulations could stop terrorism. The idea with terrorism is that its not possible to stop even if you regulate everything.



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[*] posted on 2-8-2011 at 00:46


Interesting posts here.

I'd say, as a new member, that I would hate to see any section restricted.

I am still wondering where I may contribute anything new, because as Polverone points out above, the UTFSE is sometimes underused.

So then I will continue to read, and learn from these threads, and others at other forums, as I have done for the last several years.

I am thankful that the threads are here to learn from, and one maniac with his feet stuck to the ground in one spot with his small mind that he thinks is so large, the "bad chemicals" in his brain making him mix up chemicals for a bad day, as planned, will not get in the way.

His mind was small in comparison to what is really important in life, and we don't have to think so hard before those things come to mind.

I am glad to see these places not locked or hidden, because I NEED to learn about things like CuO, MgAl, Al, KCLO4, many others, for many reasons:
for work, and possible future career paths
to fuel that hunger for knowledge that many of us have
to be safe when I am having fun with friends and family.

This place is not the only source, as is noted above, Libraries are great places, and there are other forums. At another forum I am a member of, there was at one time an essay requirement. If any more restrictions are to be in place, then something like this would be more useful imo than blocking only one more section.

Anyway, it is a non issue anymore.

Thankfully, this guy is behind bars, and thankfully there are smarter folks out there/here to debunk his work.



[Edited on 2-8-2011 by moolybdenum]
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The WiZard is In
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[*] posted on 2-8-2011 at 16:26
Be glad he wasn't into biololgy


http://www.fas.org/irp/cia/product/bw1103.pdf

Central Intelligence Agency Directorate Of Intelligence
The Darker Bioweapons Future

I could come up with even scarier refs., however.... I am
not planning on spending the my next few years in Cuba,
all expensives paid by my uncle.



djh
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engineers—they begin
with sewing machines
and end up with the
atomic bomb.

Marcel Pagnol

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[*] posted on 3-8-2011 at 03:11


Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  
I could come up with even scarier refs.,


Nothing to be scared of in this world.

Losing all your status, power, prowess, friends, family, possessions, money happens to everyone, eventually.

The only reason why people fear calamity is because they have made idols out of what they can not keep.
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Bot0nist
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[*] posted on 3-8-2011 at 05:17


That sounds very enlightened Fusionfire.



U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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[*] posted on 3-8-2011 at 10:24


There are some aspects terrorism that seem almost strange:

1. Iraq did not have a WMD development program.
2. The USA did not create a fake one in Iraq to justify the invasion.
3. There have been so few terrorist attacks in the West. There must be millions of angry Iraquis and Afgans wanting to kill Americans. They blow each other to bits on a daily basis. How come nothing has happened in the US? Are they disorganized or are the CIA and FBI catching them and not telling anyone?

There seem to be two types of terrorists. Ones like Bin Laden that have an organization and the rest that seem to be "lone wolves". I imagine the FBI is pretty good a keeping tabs on the organizations. The lone wolves must be almost impossible to track. Fortunately there are relatively few of them and most seem to be too mentally unstable to be really effective, (Oslo and Oklahoma city being the exceptions).
Airplanes were easy targets, but are more difficult now.

Most terrorists seem to feel they are fighting a war opposed to killing random people. Since they must attack a specific group it makes them easier to catch and limits the methods that they can use.

I suspect that bio weapons are too sloppy for the terrorist organizations, and beyond the capabilities of the lone wolves to create.
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[*] posted on 3-8-2011 at 11:21


Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
I suspect that bio weapons are too sloppy for the terrorist organizations, and
beyond the capabilities of the lone wolves to create.



Lego? No. Bioparts

http://partsregistry.org/Catalog



SIPRI
Policy Paper chemical and Biochemical Non-lethal Weapons
Political and Technical Aspects
Ronald G. Sutherland
November 1978

Gene synthesis technology has the capacity to make viruses (i.e. it is theoretically
possible for bioterrorists to order dangerous DNA sequences through the
post in order, for example, to make smallpox virus or other lethal pathogens). It is
unlikely that any terrorist group has the skills necessary at present but the technology
is becoming simpler. There clearly is a need for self-regulation and government
interaction as well as public scrutiny.

One of the greatest areas of concern in synthetic biology is the ability to create
‘synthetic life’ (i.e. life that can replicate itself). Scientists can now create replicas
of existing pathogens. It may also be possible to synthesize genotype-specific
weapons that could target animals or plants (many plants are produced as monocultures
today). The potential combination of synthetic biology with nanotechnology
promises even more challenges in the future. Hence there is a need to
develop policy to address such issues and to modify existing
international practices to prevent proliferation.


djh
----
My fear is some precious
15-year old is going to gene
splice the right/wrong thing
together, release it on the populace
and the last 3-inches of my Yahooo-hooo
is going to fall off!
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