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Author: Subject: Oslo and the amateur experimenter
KemiRockarFett
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[*] posted on 8-8-2011 at 08:56


Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]


Aluminium did not go high order ? give me a break !
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[*] posted on 8-8-2011 at 08:57


Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]


Ofcourse, thats what i said. But you dont really need to be a chemical engineer to make a batch of picric acid and DDNP if you have the balls to take a reasonable chance.. I doubt all the 800kgs went high order, but seeing the all the windows that was shattered around the town here i know it wassnt a 100kg anfo bomb either.

And i dont wanna think about the casualties if breivik wassnt delayed and managed to sett it off a few hours earlier, or even worse, on a regular day.
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[*] posted on 8-8-2011 at 09:13


Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett  
Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]


Aluminium did not go high order ? give me a break !


Well, it certainly does not cause the same damage as ammonium nitrate, which releases large amounts of gas.
The explosion itself may have even scattered the aluminium and prevented from it reacting to the fullest extent.
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[*] posted on 8-8-2011 at 09:23


Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett  
Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]


Aluminium did not go high order ? give me a break !


Well, it certainly does not cause the same damage as ammonium nitrate, which releases large amounts of gas.
The explosion itself may have even scattered the aluminium and prevented from it reacting to the fullest extent.


Huh? A AN +AL +NM bomb is alot more powerful than just AN. Ofcourse its one thing if he overfuels it with aluminium, but a oxygen balanced composition is pretty powerful.
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[*] posted on 8-8-2011 at 09:27


Well, if the bomb was indeed 800kg, so something was probably not mixed or ignited properly.
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KemiRockarFett
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[*] posted on 8-8-2011 at 10:17


Quote: Originally posted by textex  
Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
Quote: Originally posted by KemiRockarFett  
Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
May be he means that he believes that Breivik didn't lie about most of what he wrote in his manifest (at least the stuff that regard practical things, like his bomb making and training), for example the size of the bomb and the ingredients used to make it. Its very plausible that some things in the bomb, like the aluminium, didn't go high order and didn't cause serious damage compared to the high explosives that were in the bomb.

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Mixell]


Aluminium did not go high order ? give me a break !


Well, it certainly does not cause the same damage as ammonium nitrate, which releases large amounts of gas.
The explosion itself may have even scattered the aluminium and prevented from it reacting to the fullest extent.


Huh? A AN +AL +NM bomb is alot more powerful than just AN. Ofcourse its one thing if he overfuels it with aluminium, but a oxygen balanced composition is pretty powerful.


Sir yes sir! Powerful is the right word, check AXT all info about that in the energtic part in this forum.
Al in itself gives a thermobaric effect if in exess otherwise it will only reacting with released H2O, N2, CO2 from the detonation of the explosive increasing the output energy.
Talk about AN and a lot of gasses is not relevant as its the energy [J] OUT and POWER [J/s] that matters.
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[*] posted on 9-8-2011 at 02:11


The chemfobia is bigger than ever. The newspapers here now write about some eu-directive which may restrict sulfuric acid, nitromethane etc to the point where you need a permit from the police to aquire it. :(
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[*] posted on 9-8-2011 at 02:27


Like guns which are illegal to own without a license in many countries, chemicals may soon go the way of black markets.

One thing history should teach us, is that where there is demand and money, there will always be supply (regardless of the laws).
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[*] posted on 9-8-2011 at 11:58


With all the increasing EU-directives, should we not be concerned about the over centralisation of power? After all, the EU is not a democratic institution, at least not in the direct sense. The EU governing bodies almost seem intent on crushing any notions of national identity, and have resorted to subtle tactics to further their ends.



I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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KemiRockarFett
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[*] posted on 9-8-2011 at 14:08


Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
With all the increasing EU-directives, should we not be concerned about the over centralisation of power? After all, the EU is not a democratic institution, at least not in the direct sense. The EU governing bodies almost seem intent on crushing any notions of national identity, and have resorted to subtle tactics to further their ends.


Glad to hear that you are awake to the banksters overtaking of the EU and US , BUT what to do about it? Nothing.

In 10 years it will be possible to buy food for the avarage people not so much else, I think we will se a lot of more terror and new regulations as answer from the governments to "protect" us.

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The WiZard is In
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[*] posted on 16-8-2011 at 16:11
Mother Nature the world's best bioterrorist


Quote: Originally posted by The WiZard is In  

djh
----
My fear is some precious
15-year old is going to gene
splice the right/wrong thing
together, release it on the populace
and the last 3-inches of my Yahooo-hooo
is going to fall off!



BACILLUS CEREUS, ANTHRAX-LIKE INFECTION - USA (02): (TEXAS),
DISCUSSION
***********************************************************************
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

Date: Mon 15 Aug 2011
From: Larry Lutwick, ProMED-mail Bacterial Disease Moderator
<lutwick@promedmail.org>

The online publication in the Archives of Pathology and Laboratory
Medicine (as described in PRO/AH> Bacillus cereus, anthrax-like
infection - USA: (TX) publication 20110815.2470) detailed the genetic
analysis of a strain of _Bacillus cereus_ containing a plasmid quite
similar to the pXO1 plasmid of _B. anthracis_ which caused a rapidly
progressive, fatal, inhalation anthrax-like illness. It is not stated
in the report when the case occurred. The victim resided in Texas and
was a welder. Cases like the described case have occurred before, but
what made the report unique was the rapid genome sequencing to define
the strain, concluding that bioterrorism was not an issue.

If the bacterium causing the current Minnesota case has been
identified as _B. anthracis_, then it is not likely that the case
represents a _B. cereus_ case, since the 2 species can be reasonably
easily differentiated by standard microbiological testing.

A 2004 PNAS report (1) describes _B. cereus_ G9241, one of several
past isolates of the organism, causing unusually severe lung disease
and which found, as in the above publication, that it was very similar
to _B. anthracis_. G9241 had been isolated from a Louisiana welder in
1994. In 1996, 2 additional cases in Texas metal workers were reported
as well as an environmental isolate (2). One of the isolates was
clinically indistinguishable from the Louisiana case. The clinical
isolates possessed a capsule, but it was not the anthrax
poly-D-glutamic acid capsule. The Texas cases were described in
clinical form in 2007 (3). Further evaluation of the G9241 strain,
interestingly, found that despite producing its virulence factors, the
strain behaved more like the attenuated toxigenic nonencapsulated
Sterne strain in rabbits and mice (4). With these cases seemingly
localized to Texas and Louisiana in the USA, an additional isolate was
found from a cluster of anthrax-like deaths that occurred in Cote
d'Ivoire among wild chimpanzees in 2001 and 2002 (5). This strain had
the typical _B. cereus_ chromosomal background with the typical
anthrax virulence plasmids. Importantly, the isolate did not contain
the 4 _B. anthracis_-specific prophage regions and also did not have
the classical nonsense mutation in the regulator gene P1cR. The highly
monophyletic anthrax clade all contain these features (6).

These isolates seem, once again, to nominate Mother Nature as our
world's best bioterrorist.
It is, however, not at all clear that the
organism involved in the current Minnesota case is a _B. cereus_
rather than a _B. anthracis_. Hopefully, more information will surface
regarding the Minnesota isolate and whether the individual was also an
iron worker, as were the Texas and Louisiana cases.

References:
1. Hoffmaster AR, Ravel J, Rasko DA, et al: Identification of anthrax
toxin genes in a _Bacillus cereus_ associated with an illness
resembling inhalation anthrax. PNAS 2004;101: 8449-8454.
2. Hoffmaster AR, Hill KK, Gee JE, et al: Characterization of
_Bacillus cereus_ isolates associated with fatal pneumonias: strains
are closely related to _Bacillus anthracis_ and harbor _B. anthracis_
virulence genes. J Clin Microbiol 2006;44: 3352-3360.
3. Avashia SB, Riggins WS, Lindley C, et al: Fatal pneumonia among
metalworkers due to inhalation exposure to _Bacillus cereus_
containing _Bacillus anthracis_ toxin genes. Clin Infect Dis. 2007;44:
414-416.
4. Wilson MK, Vergis JM, Alem F, et al: _Bacillus cereus_ G9241 makes
anthrax toxin and capsule like highly virulent _B. anthracis_ Ames but
behaves like attenuated toxigenic nonencapsulated _B. anthracis_
Sterne in rabbits and mice. Infect Immun. 2011;79: 3012-3019.
5. Klee SR, Brzuszkiewicz EB, Natterman H, et al: The genome of a
_Bacillus_ isolate causing anthrax in chimpanzees combines chromosomal
properties of _B. cereus_ with _B. anthracis_ virulence plasmids. PLoS
ONE 5(7):e10986. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0010986.
6. Kolsto A-B, Tourasse NJ, Okstad OA: What sets _Bacillus anthracis_
apart from other _Bacillus_ species? Annu Rev Microbiol 2009;63:
451-476.

--
Communicated by:
ProMED-mail <promed@promedmail.org>

[see also:
Bacillus cereus, anthrax-like infection - USA: (TX) publication
20110815.2470
Anthrax - USA (04): (MN) alert 20110812.2441
Anthrax - USA (03): (MN) 20110811.2437
Anthrax - USA (02): (MN) 20110810.2431]
2005
----
Bacillus cereus skin infections, 2004 - USA (GA) 20051209.3546
1998
----
Bacillus cereus endophthalmitis - Italy (02) 19980507.0892
Bacillus cereus endophthalmitis - Italy 19980507.0884]
.................................................ll/msp/mpp
*##########################################################*
************************************************************
ProMED-mail makes every effort to verify the reports that
are posted, but the accuracy and completeness of the
information, and of any statements or opinions based
thereon, are not guaranteed. The reader assumes all risks in
using information posted or archived by ProMED-mail. ISID
and its associated service providers shall not be held
responsible for errors or omissions or held liable for any
damages incurred as a result of use or reliance upon posted
or archived material.
************************************************************
Donate to ProMED-mail. Details available at:
<http://www.isid.org/ProMEDMail_Donations.shtml>
************************************************************
Visit ProMED-mail's web site at <http://www.promedmail.org>.
Send all items for posting to: promed@promedmail.org (NOT to
an individual moderator). If you do not give your full name
name and affiliation, it may not be posted. You may unsub-
scribe at <http://www.isid.org/promedmail/subscribe.lasso>.
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IrC
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[*] posted on 16-8-2011 at 17:48


Either sloppy science or sloppy reporting by them. Two rare cases. Both welding. Clear connection. If it's that rare what are the odds both weld? OK, is it arc or gas? Or Tig, etc.? What is common. Did they both breathe Argon from the same source? Or was it Oxygen or Acetylene? If gas for both did they actually think of the question I just mentioned and if so did they trace the gasses back and test the source? I focus on gas because the disease was inhaled in both cases correct?

If arc did they both weld galvanized? Was zinc and/or compounds inhaled needed for critical growth medium? More likely gas. After all in both the lungs were the target. Simply because you start gas, then light. During this time you breathe some of the gas in. If so did they bother to trace the gas to a single supplier? What is going on in the production of the gas? Please tell me they actually did better investigative science than the reporter did reporting.




"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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The WiZard is In
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[*] posted on 16-8-2011 at 18:20


Quote: Originally posted by IrC  
Either sloppy science or sloppy reporting by them. Two rare cases.


Good grief.

it was very similar to _B. anthracis_. G9241 had been isolated from a Louisiana welder in 1994.

If they isolated B. anthracis......!

By da having made the mistake of cutting a galvanized
steel grating with an oxy-acetylene torch... I can confidently
state that anyone who has ever had Zink fume fever -
metal workers ague
knows the symptoms and doesn't make the same mistake 2X.

This wasn't published in the National Inquirer! The mod's
at ProMed have their medical shit wired.
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IrC
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[*] posted on 16-8-2011 at 23:16


I assumed we both use English as a first language. Nowhere did I say they were confusing a metal fume fever. In the 70's I overhead arc welded galvanized conduit to steel I beams at 80 amps with a 5/32 rod for 18 hours a day. I am aware of this illness from experience. What I was going after was they did not go into the common factors for the two anthrax like cases and derive the source. As I said what are the odds both were welders and if so where did the two get this rare spore. If gas welding both would temporarily breathe gasses from their torches in the seconds before lighting them, assuming spores if in one of the tanks could not survive the flame after they were lit. Since there are few major suppliers such as BOC could the source of one of the gasses be identical and why did the medical people fail to mention this connection.




"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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[*] posted on 20-9-2011 at 02:45


Thought i'd just give you an update on this. The counter terrorism police here got loads of criticism for not checking up the terrorist when he appeared on a list of buyers from some eastern european chemical retailers. The list was obtained from a joint operation involving Interpol and custom agencies around the world, and after the operation Norwegian LE had a list with around 60 names on it, one which was Anders Breivik, having bought around 600grams of NaNO3.

Its weird that none with knowledge has stood up and explained that he woulda been able to aquire the NO3 he needed for his nitration from other sources anyways. Nevertheless the counter terrorism agency here are in the process of interviewing everyone on that list now. Thankfully they dont seem to care that mutch about the the breach of some storage regulations codes etc, that i guess most hobby chemist breach. But i guess that especially the pyro scene here will be pretty inactive the next years. They have arrested two hobby pyro/HE guys and locked them up in full isolation for atleast 4 weeks.

Dunno if it has anything with the terrorism, but our chemistry teacher just got a letter from the people that arrange the exams, telling him that no chemicals were allowed for the practical oral exam :s

And i thought the US got crazy after 911..

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[*] posted on 13-2-2012 at 23:46


The association of the practice of amateur energetic chemistry with the use
of bombs and explosives for arson and killing is a defamatory stigma and an
unfair characterization , experimenters are not engaged in warfare.
How easy would it be for a restaurant worker to poison people , does this
suggest that commercial food preparation is inherently a danger to the public ?

The history of the car bomb in the twentieth century and into the present day,
is chronicled by the principle parties that used them and had to contend with
this weapon of unconventional warfare. The conclusion of this analysis is that
by deploying such methods the advantage is entirely with the perpetrators to
obtain their ends. It runs one hour and forty minutes with commercials.

http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/car_bomb

.
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AndersHoveland
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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 12:19


Google, the largest and most commonly used internet search provider, has secretly begun CENSORING its searches!
http://www.politicalforum.com/forum-help-feedback-etc/235274...
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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 12:26


That's upsetting. I thought Google was a champion of the light, and what not. Wfjat's the tie to the Oslo incident?



U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


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[*] posted on 27-2-2012 at 17:05


Not too surprised. For a while if you would type 'pat bu' into a google search box, the suggested completions for this would start with 'pat burrell' and nowhere contain 'pat buchanan', even though an actual search on pat buchanan would return an order of magnitude more hits. They fixed it after some complaining, but they are clearly conscious of their ability to hide things for political reasons, and willing to use it.



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[*] posted on 19-1-2013 at 09:21



Reagan Warned Us About Obama
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3hY1eagq88

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[*] posted on 20-1-2013 at 04:02


Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Google, the largest and most commonly used internet search provider, has secretly begun CENSORING its searches!
http://www.politicalforum.com/forum-help-feedback-etc/235274...


Thanks for the link. Excellent forum. :cool:
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