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niertap
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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 02:49
ADD-pi ADHD Discuss


I've decided to start an ADD/ADHD topic. Do many people of science have it? Describe your relation to it and relevant information.



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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 03:25


Wow! Right! OK! Yes! What? Er, sorry - what's the question? Just joshing,:D
No, seriously, I can manage AS, not that that's of any relevance . . .

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bahamuth
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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 04:19


Sure some people are affected by an inabillity to focus and so on.

But in my opinion, add/adhd is just a load of crap, to wide a diagnostic area, every human on earth has it (belive me, my son got forced through that crap, and received the diagnosis and no way that anyone I know wouldnt get that one if they tried..).

If anything it is a personality trait, and a good one at that. People I work with and know that maybe would have gotten the diagnosis are brilliant problemsolvers and scientist. Who else could keep the "steam" for 20 hours on a crucial project....

The "problem" is the drugging of young with psychopharma....


Sorry for the rant.....

Bahamuth




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hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 04:35


Quote:

The "problem" is the drugging of young with psychopharma....

I agree - the ubiquitous products of chemical companies being given orally to children to supposedly 'counteract' the deleterious effects of ubiquitous products of chemical companies released as air pollutants . . .

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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 08:07


wasn't this inattention once upon a time just understood as kids being kids? and is not technology, particularly video games, the largest source of it? from a young age children are bombarded by this crap and develop a love for it. no wonder that's all they want to do. they see it as more entertaining than schoolwork and since there are no longer any real repercussions from misbehavior, they know they can get away with it. if they act up they know the will get nothing more than a "good talking to". there are no real punishments anymore so why not misbehave?

in my opinion, its just kids being kids. to quote south park "these 8 year-olds are running around acting like...8 year olds!"

perhaps i am just ranting but it strikes a chord with me. my 6 year old daughter is on some god-forsaken crap med for adhd and it pisses me off. i know a lot of docs just like to throw drugs at any "problem" to get their quotas up for the pharm companies instead of realizing that abundance of sedentary home life coupled with a lack of physical exercise at home and at school is the root of the problem. those are the factors you can see the most changes that show a correlation to the rise of add/adhd in people today. too much ass sitting and not enough active time. these problems are also affecting the imaginative abilities of youths. they can't picture the things they read in books anymore because the t.v. does all their thinking.

if add/adhd is really even an actual condition, i think it is not as widespread as the med industry would have us believe.

edit: i know i could just take my daughter off the med but then there is the whole fight with her mother who falls for this garbage hook, line and sinker.

[Edited on 10-8-2011 by Rogeryermaw]




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bahamuth
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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 08:23


Have to agree with yoy Rogeryermaw, I am in almost the same boat as you. Though I barely managed to convince the mother of my child not to let them administer the narcotics. Though it had to be dragged to court...

And not to be male chauvinistic but I think females more often than not, do not set a sceptic eye towards doctors and psycologists who prescribe the drugs and diagnosis just to sustain their livelihood.

Was on these meetings after the diag. was set on my kid, and the crap the counsellors spew out amazed me. Even went so far, on request from me, to state that the phenetylamines prescribed did not work on "healthy" persons.. Also a mojarity of them had the diag. themselves, and basically only bragged on how much they could get in social support for their diagnosis. Remind you that I live I Norway, in the city which has TWICE the number of people with the diagnosis than the country average...

Let the kids be kids I say...




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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 08:28


Well when my older brother was inkindergarten, he was kicked out for throwing blocks at the teacher, fighting with other kids, ect. The teacher recommended a psychological analysis ( honestly?) and the doctor told my dad that he had ADHD or whatever and recommended he be put on medication. My dad told him to shove it up his ass. Fast forward some 18 years, and he is now working part time, attending a university ( with good grades), is a member of the National Guard reserves, and has had a steady, long-term relationship with a woman. Good thing he met that doctor!

Another story. A friend of mine was 'diagnosed' with ADD/ADHD and put on some medication, I think Adderol or some medication that starts with an R. He has stopped taking it, but when he takes it, he turns into what I would describe as a zombie. Normally he is a funny, goofy guy that does well in groups. but when he is on the medication, he can hardly socialize and can only focus one thing at a time. It is crazy how much his personality changes when he is on it. Personally, I think he made the right choice in stopping it. He is a music major- he doesnt do well to stare at books and study for tests, its really not his thing. He passes, but in low academic levels- however in music, he excels

Summary: its a big pile of bologna. I think there may be severe cases where such medication would be beneficial, but otherwise its a good money maker :D

[Edited on 10-8-2011 by sternman318]
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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 09:23


A lot of engineering students had ADD when I was in school and a lot of them were taking meds. My friend had to take second year three times but managed to get it together and graduated now. A lot of them were just weird random guys that unintentionally rub people the wrong way.

Of course I tried one of his ritalin pills, its like an enormous starbucks without the jitters or bathroom breaks. Zombie is not a word I would use to describe it. I don't have ADD so it may be different, the theory is how dopamine works in the brain.

There is also adderall and dexedrine, which is just amphetamine. When meth is sold on the streets it ruins lives and our chemistry hobby but when a doctor gives basically the same thing to children its OK.




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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 12:05


Teachers and unspecialised doctors should not be allowed within 100 feet of a ADHD diagnosis. They are not, on the whole, qualified.

What is ADHD? It's not kids being kids, it's actually very different.

ADHD can present in a number of different ways. One of the most interesting aspect is that the socialisation of people with ADHD is different then those without, the difference is remarkable enough that people with ADHD develop signs and symptoms which are based on the reactions of those around them and are affected by those formed symptoms for the rest of their life.

ADHD has been documented and diagnosed for over 200 years under different names. The use of stimulants as a treatment method is somewhere around 100 years old. Google "mental restlessness"


@bahamuth - You have no idea what you are talking about.

amphetamines - wake you up and make you think faster right?

If you have ADHD they slow you down, in large amounts they make you into a "zombie" which is why the cycles of abuse for things like Ritalin are virtually zilch amongst those they are correctly prescribed for.

Rogeryermaw - Damn right you should be outraged if doctors are pumping drugs into your kid without a proper diagnosis. Have you tried double blind tests? If the medication helps your daughter, it may turn out to be the best thing for her.

http://www.adhdcareersolutions.com/index.html

Adults properly diagnosed later in life with ADHD and treated (be it game plans or medication and game plans) - often resent everything in their life that kept them away from the help they have found. It can make that big of a difference.

Don't believe anything I'm saying? Hit up the forums on the topics, listen to what affected people say.

http://www.addforums.com/forums/index.php

http://forum.canadianparents.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?u...

http://www.adhdnews.com/

Ritalin is over prescribed and ADHD is misdiagnosed - that in no way makes it less or unreal, it just means grain of salt and extra reading.

Dismissing something out of hand because of limited subjective evidence... wait this is a science forum right?

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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 15:06


Psychology is a quasi science at best, and the bullshit about being diagnosed for 200 years....

Psychiatrists lobotomized people just 70 years ago for just about anything, and I suspect in 20 or so years we will see the outcome of putting our children on CNS, most certainly changing their psyche...

And by the way Neil, have you read the DSM-IV on ADHD/ADD...
Everyone in the world have most "symptoms" in a more or less degree...

Not to go all out in a flame war, it sounds like Neil is eating the "bullshit" himself. (That one open for interpreting..)


PS. Partake enough stimulants, eat less, sleep less, think less, and any person will be a zombie. Also, I know alot of people that has sampled methylphenidate, all say one turns zombie of it.... just sayin´




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Neil
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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 19:48


The DSM is the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders"

The intention of the guide is to set down series of related symptoms/signs which when present in greater then a specified number provide a diagnosis key.

Have you read the book? By your logic mental illness is a figment of er.. everyone else's imagination.

The basis of the DSM is that everyone has some bits of everything, it's only when you got clods of something that it goes to work for you.

Yeah I bet taking a lot of stimulants combined with abusing your body would make anyone a zombie over time, which is absolutely the opposite of proper medication and totally unrelated to an individual undergoing drug therapy.

By and large Methylphenidate is not known for making people into mental zombies, look up academic doping, or the description Mr. Crow gave.

Four more years ago then seventy years ago people where being prescribed stimulants to treat what would eventually become ADHD. So why in twenty more years would you expect a sudden onslaught of maladies? Evidence? papers which support your charges?

Here are the brass balls of the matter; I know many young adults, adults and elders who have ADHD with certified diagnosis.

I've talked to, taught, worked with and been in relationships with people who had it. I've seen people make U turns out of life when they where given a diagnosis and a set of coping strategies and I've seen people ride their lives into the ground in spite of it.

A commonality is that they are often and frequently hurt by the negative attention their diagnosis receives.

So I'll tell you what, why don't you read through those forums. See what people who are living with it say and try to convince them it is not real. While your at it you may want to look up psychiatry, psychology, symptoms, CNS and psyche.

As for throwing around the word "bull shit" I would suggest you look up "An inquiry into the nature and origin of mental derangement: comprehending a concise system of the physiology and pathology of the human mind and a history of the passions and their effects "(1798) Alexander Crichton.

As it is you are doing nothing but sharing your personal paranoia, complete with winks and attempts at acerbic condescension, which is a pity because it degrades the informational value of a forum which has rigorously prided its self on being factual.
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 00:01


as far as my daughter, what i know is that she was prescribed one med(forget the name, will look it up) that was a stimulant and controlled substance. it made her rage. then she was given clonodine, that made her a zombie. we couldn't even get her up for school. now she is on strattera. she says it makes her brain "not work", and that she hates taking it. i feel sorry for her but i have had knock down drag out fights with my brainwashed wife over it so i let her keep poisoning my kid. i know i had a lot of energy as a child and if i had that energy level sitting around at home all day, i would have scratched the paint off the walls and eaten the carpeting going crazy. i countered it by running through the woods, riding my bike, playing sports and learning martial arts. i wore my excess energy down and it left me able to focus and concentrate. no dope required. then along came nintendo. fortunately i had already trained my mind to work for me...but it ruined my physical health.

i'm not saying add/adhd is nonexistent or imaginary. i am saying it is a much abused diagnosis and that it is destroying people who are forced to take meds they do not need. for those on the other side, if it gives them what they need to function in the world as expected, that's fine. i just think there are an assload of people falsely diagnosed.

an example: how many of you have ever been to the doctor for this malady or that and the doctor says, with out any testing or blood work, "oh yeah, this bug has been going around lately. here's a scrip." and then basically tells you to get the fuck out without laying a finger on you? me? several times. they may even be right. but without proper testing, anything they say is garbage.




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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 06:38


Sorry to hear that Rogeryermaw. You should seriously try and get your daughter off that shit. Your wife probably thinks its all medicine and can't cause any harm. She loves her daughter so the misguided attempt to help her could be turned around to get her off it.

Coffee can also turn people into zombies with heavy use. My friend says it lets you focus really hard on what ever you want. That can be either doing school work or slacking off on the Internet. If you are focused intensely on one thing you might look like a zombie externally where as internally your mind is racing. Like playing an FPS computer game.

The problem now is those damn smartphones and the Internet. This lets you switch quickly between unlimited sources of stimulus. Like people who browse those funny picture websites. Each one is only mildly amusing but the constant stream entertains you. My ADD friend has been affected really badly by these sorts of things.

Neil: This thread is mostly opinion, so it no longer becomes science




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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 07:09


Hey, how does a kid with ADHD tell a joke?
-I give up, how?
Oh look, a squirrel!

But no, seriously, my mom was diagnosed as an adult, my brother when he was in middle school- I got off easy, I just come across as the absent-minded scientist type :)
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 07:11


Misunderstand me correctly.


I do not deny that there may be people needing psychopharma, neither do I deny the existence of personality disorders as ADD/ADHD and the like.

But I am totally against drugging people, especially children with a developing mind just to make them conform to society.
In my opinion, and others with/or knowing friends with the diagnosis feel that they are not allowed to be themselves, which in my opinion, is a a crime against humanity.

And the fact that they do not know any common chemical or physical factor in the brain to support the diagnosises sound a little strange to me. Though some research shows dopamine to be a factor, but have yet to read a conclusive high level publication on the subject. They only know for certain that the condition are family related, totally ignoring the psychosocial factors. This induces a great doubt in me about the sincerity of those passing the stuff as an illness we need to fix.

Offcourse this is just my words on this forum, and I admit I have a bias towards this subject as imposed by the experiences I have had with the system.
But, same goes for the other forums.

But my point still stays, ALL beings has a right to be, feel, and decide over their own body and psyche as long that they do not pose a danger to others.

Feeding drugs to children who in most cases only need a firmer parental guidance (this I learned from a specialist in ADD/ADHD), and not drugs.


This poses a major question, do YOU want to be "subdued" to fit the conformity, killing off individuality and forcing all to think/feel/behave the same.




As a concluding statement, I feel the need to express that I believe some may benefit from psychopharma at a young age, but far from those prescribed today in the ADD/ADHD realm (An estimate of 5% of the population in Norway have the "illness", though alot fewer do get prescribed medication).




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[*] posted on 13-8-2011 at 09:18


I think ADD/ADHD is the result of brain damage taken while the child is growing up. ADD/ADHD is used to describe this human condition and create a potential solution for those people who have it by providing medications that will help them function as most other people do. While the medications do not fix the problem they do help the person function like normal. Most medication typicaly work on dopamine and addrenaline more than seritonin. In my oppinion the medications available to people with ADD/ADHD are total and complete shit. All medications are neurotoxic except for a few and those that aren't tend to be far to weak to do anything for the person. The available medications consist of the ancient drugs METHAMPHETAMINE and AMPHETAMINE (adderal). These drugs have long been known to damage the monoamine receptors in the brain yet they "help" people with ADHD to focus. I guess part of the medicinal effects of these drugs is to remove the H from your diagnosis when the doctor takes you off of your meds... Anyways... Methylphenidate (ritalin) is a tripple reuptake inhibitor that works like cocain the only difference is that it is not as strong or neurotoxic. It is neurotoxic however but not nearly as bad as methamp and amp and it is for this reason that it is the drug of choice when those with the power prescribe it to those claiming ADD/ADHD. So like I said before ritalin acts on dope adren and seri but more on dope and adren. You cant change how the drug works to see which receptors your brain needs to whip into gear all you see is a drug that whips all three. Where is the love? Shouldn't people who suffer from ADD/ADHD have drugs that act on single areas of the brain by now?
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[*] posted on 14-8-2011 at 05:13


When I was young, I was suffering from mild dyslexia and would have probably been labeled also as ADD, but never got medicated even though I did have a child psychologist follow me for a while (mid 1970's). When I was in my 20's, I often had anxiety attacks, I was quite stressed and nervous, my doc prescribed some anti depressants/anti anxiety drugs. I vaguely remember Paxil... Anyway, I am thankful that I never got hooked on these because I remember the day I first took these, I had a violent allergic reaction (vomiting, transpiration, dizzy spells) and I was a "zombie" for 24 hours.

Needless to say I got rid of that stuff fast and never took another of these drugs again. I do think kids are overprescribed these days, and it does affect their cognitive abilities. Think of a whole Ritalin generation who will head socity in a few years from now... (shudder). Sometimes, I think that the fact that a kid is quiet and not belligerent outweighs the fact that the drug he takes as a kid will affect him for the rest of his life. That's sad.

Robert



[Edited on 14-8-2011 by Arthur Dent]




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[*] posted on 14-8-2011 at 13:12


Clearly most of do not have it. My main idea was to learn from others personal experiences, to gain a wider view of the topic.

For those of you who say it's a load of crap, please be slightly more scientific in your crass judgments. I am significantly affected by add-pi and have an above average IQ, which gives me a unique perspective into add-pi.

For example, the treatment I've found to be most effective is smoking cigarettes. The constant addiction, seemed to remind me to keep a schedule, and other dopagenic reasons. However, after smoking half a pack/day for over a month; I just forgot to keep smoking one day.

--More later. Also, I believe they're sometimes over prescribed, however there is a definite place for them.




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[*] posted on 14-8-2011 at 22:29


I have ADD too. I have great trouble focusing without my medication, but between semesters I don't take it.

I went to a boarding school, where time was strictly assigned, which made it easier for me to work (because you had assigned "prep" time etc).

After school I found it difficult to motivate myself or do Uni work, unless I kept strict semester, weekly, and daily planners.

So that's how I operate now, with my days divided up into half hour blocks, and that helps.

I don't know anything about psychology or overmedication so I can't speak to that.
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[*] posted on 15-8-2011 at 08:39
ADD


I have it. I'm a 52 year old professional with an advanced degree. I didn't start taking ritalin until after I got my degrees. Sometimes I wonder how much easier it would have been, and how much better my grades would have been if I had been diagnosed when I was 10 instead of 35.
I don't think its a load of crap, just wish I had known earlier. I find it amazing how opinionated a young person can be about something that they know nothing about.
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[*] posted on 15-8-2011 at 17:45


Quote: Originally posted by mr.crow  
My friend says it lets you focus really hard on what ever you want. That can be either doing school work or slacking off on the Internet. If you are focused intensely on one thing you might look like a zombie externally where as internally your mind is racing. Like playing an FPS computer game.

The problem now is those damn smartphones and the Internet. This lets you switch quickly between unlimited sources of stimulus. Like people who browse those funny picture websites. Each one is only mildly amusing but the constant stream entertains you. My ADD friend has been affected really badly by these sorts of things.


Yeah I have the same problem, I cannot study on the computer, otherwise I need some kind of movie or audio running in the background, a steady humming drone which allows me to focus on the task at hand.

Typically I end up browsing from website to website, especially news websites.

My solution, which has worked partially, is to study in one room with my books only, and only use the computer during specified hours.
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[*] posted on 15-8-2011 at 18:01


I do agree with the majority opinion in this thread.

However for multiple learning disabilities the use of mild stimulants can be a god-send. My little brother who was born with several different learning disabilities was told at 8 by a leading nuerologist, he would likely not know the alphabet by 24. Probably a bad estimate but he is much older now and can write, read, type, surf the web, do basic math, understand video-games, and hold a conversation like anyone else. He even ended up taking some normal classes his senior year of high-school, and graduated(I'm really proud of him for that!).

However, he would not have made the same progress without them. He only took them before school, and on days where he forgot to take them or didn't take them(and told no one). He would be sent home, or my mother would have to drive to the school to give him some. The difference is day and night.

I have tutored him in many classes. The days he would not take them, after school he could not focus. I mean I could tell him a word and a definition, then immediately after ask him what the word was, or the definition and he would scratch his head.

Did he take them for days where he is not being academic? No. Are there other ways? Of course. Given that private schools for people like him are around 5 thousand U.S. dollars a year, my parents could not afford that option... Was he on adderal, vyvance, ritalin, desoxyn? No, he took a smaller dose iirc before school of "concerta".

Yes there is a huge abuse/misuse issue with these substances that is all to common in modern times. Though there are practical cases for their usage, any sane person would agree.




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[*] posted on 15-8-2011 at 21:38


Concerta is extended release Ritalin.


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[*] posted on 18-8-2011 at 02:15


Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth  
Misunderstand me correctly.

I do not deny that there may be people needing psychopharma, neither do I deny the existence of personality disorders as ADD/ADHD and the like.
...


Whoa, there, partner, ADD/ADHD is most definitely not a personality disorder. It's a physiological difference in the brains of those with the "disorder". I put that in quotes because it's also sometimes called a gift; ADD/ADHD folks are disproportionately creative sorts, often of the "artistic personality" variety, but plenty of engineers, lawyers, doctors, and other professionals have a fair representation.

Personality disorders, sometimes called character disorders, on the other hand, are things like bipolar, schizophrenia, sadistic, obsessive-compulsive, etc. Whole 'nuther kettle of fish.

Stimulants, such as methylphenidate (ritalin), can work to bring such an ADD/ADHDer's attention focus abilities -- and ability to appropriately shift focus -- more into line with what the general population can do. I mention appropriate attention shifting because its not so much that folks with ADD/ADHD constantly shift attention (Look! Shiny thing!) as they have difficulty paying the proper amount of attention at any given moment. An ADD brain is about as likely to have too long an attention span -- so-called microfocus -- as it is to have too short an attention span.
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[*] posted on 29-8-2011 at 22:48


I want to put it out there...

One example of someone with ADD and how they got it is as follows. A child at the age of five years old Is exposed to a neurotoxic mind altering substance that severely damages the development of his/her brain. The child is robbed of his memory, motor skills and his/her understanding of the surrounding world for the rest of his/her child hood. Some of these are permanant with the changes lasting for the rest of his or her life.. The child is unable to play sports or make friends because the childs brain is lacking in what was taken by the chemical. The child struggles to get through school. When the child reaches the age of 18 and is forced to work the teenager can't hold a job making burgers because of his/her poor ability to follow instructions. The child hardly made it through public school and has no chance to make it through college.

This is one example of people that fall under the ADD catagory. Just a bit of information that may help some of you understand that it is more than just a way of giving dumb kids pills to make them like the other kids.
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