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Author: Subject: NaCN bait for rodents
doctorofmind
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[*] posted on 10-8-2011 at 19:12
NaCN bait for rodents


Hey guys !

Could you please tell me which should be the concentration of NaCN in rodent baits? I want to make like 300 g of cereals based rat poison and mix it with water, some sugar and NaCN. 10 mg should be lethal for a rodent so I thought 1% (3,00g) ... is this enough ?


Thank you !
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 01:08


Why not buy the standard available rodent poison and use that? I have the impression that 'toying' with NaCN in this way is illegal and can cause you big trouble.



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doctorofmind
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 01:27


Well, it is more an experiment to see if I can eradicate rats with simply NaCN. But maybe you are right, I should not give cyanide to people as rat poison - it is quite dangerous and illegal...
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Saerynide
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 04:15


You should buy the standard rat poisons. What if a dog came around and ate it?



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Megamarko94
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 05:56


be careful that you dont poison your self



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not_important
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 06:56


You go someplace like this http://iccvam.niehs.nih.gov/meetings/SOT03/poster/paris.pdf and find the LD50 for the poison you want. Then you catch and weight your rats to determine the average weight, and calculate the needed dosage to kill the average rat. After that you need to determine the average amount a rat will consume at a time, which lets you calculate the need proportion of poison.

Note the NaCN and KCN are alkaline in solution. HCN is a very weak acid and its salts hydrolyse easily; weak acids such as lactic and even CO2 will release HCN from its ionic salts. I suspect that it would work better in oil-based baits than in water based mixtures. Even so it will slowly 'leak' HCN when exposed to the atmosphere.

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The WiZard is In
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 08:32


Quote: Originally posted by doctorofmind  
Hey guys !

Could you please tell me which should be the concentration of NaCN in rodent baits? I want to make like 300 g of cereals based rat poison and mix it with water, some sugar and NaCN. 10 mg should be lethal for a rodent so I thought 1% (3,00g) ... is this enough ?

Thank you !

Problem being - alkali metal cyanides are not stable in open air
and especially when exposed to moisture. In my misplaced
youth you could buy small cans of Cyanogas (calcium
cyanide) ant poison.

http://tinyurl.com/Cyanogas-advert


White phosphorus works— Attachment: Phosphorus Rat Poison.doc (22kB)
This file has been downloaded 421 times

Use squill. http://tinyurl.com/Squill-rat-poison

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doctorofmind
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 12:39


I don't have acces to P4 and I find it more dangerous than NaCN. Cyanide is strongly alcaline but I don't think it can be incorporated in oil... Maybe making a suspension of 1 g NaCN in 100 g melted lard would be effective?
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The WiZard is In
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 13:14


Quote: Originally posted by doctorofmind  
I don't have acces to P4 and I find it more dangerous than NaCN. Cyanide is strongly alcaline but I don't think it can be incorporated in oil... Maybe making a suspension of 1 g NaCN in 100 g melted lard would be effective?

The main problem is getting rats to eat it. They are notoriously
difficult to poison, I suffer from doubt 'bout alkaline cyanides
given their strong odour.


djh
----
Couldn't find this on my HD,
so I pulled it up using Deja.com.


Finding my kitchen invaded with sugar loving ants I put some sugar water in an old
ice cube tray with a 3/5 index card leading up to it in the morning, when I returned
from work at 0100 hours or so, I vacuumed the ants up. Well.... by the second night
.... looks like I am going to need an industrial vacuum cleaner. So .... I added a few
grains of K cyanide to the solution, returned at night and ran the solution and dead
ants (one sip and they died into the sugar water) through a sieve and poured it back
into the pan.... by the third night there were no more ants.


I remember reading while in da Army in Germany (1963-65) that at the training areas
every time an American tank ran over an ant hill the Germans fined the US Army 100 DM
($25 each). "Ants keep the forest clean."


“If one could conclude as to the nature of the
Creator from a study of his creation it would
appear that God has a special fondness for
stars and beetles.”

J. B. S. Haldane (British geneticist 1892-1964)

---
Then why did he invent chlorodane? /djh/







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cyanureeves
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 15:41


doctorofmind have you ever dissolved gold or any metal with your cyanide? does it dissolve at a fast rate? that stuff is super expensive, you are very fortunate to have some. did you know that rats are very fast learners and if they see a fellow rat croak on cyanide,they themselves will not fall for the bane? i made a failed home made cyanide synthesis and mixed some with cheese and left it in my work shed and the following morning the cheese was neatly covered with pecan leaves. freaked me the heck out! . by the way one reason for warfarin in rat poison was so the rats would not die on the spot. i swear on the one true holy rodent and his prophet that i am telling you the truth.

[Edited on 11-8-2011 by cyanureeves]
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doctorofmind
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[*] posted on 11-8-2011 at 16:10


No I haven't dissolved any metal in NaCN - however I doubt it will react at a fast rate because it also needs O2 from the air...maybe if you bubble pure O2 i don't know. NaCN is not expensive at all it is just quite restricted...
Yea, that is quite freaky :)) Maybe if you synthesise cyanide with greater purity at least it will kill one bastard :)

One idea is to put multiple "single-dose" baits all over the place rather than using all the poison in one corner.

The cheese idea is nice :cool: but if you have to kill a whole rodent family maybe it is cheaper to just buy a super-warfarin rat poison:P
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AJKOER
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[*] posted on 16-8-2011 at 10:38


I would forget the NaCN over possible legal and safety concerns and instead try Lead Acetate, used with success in the reputed poisoning of a Pope. Note, "Sugar of Lead" was for many centuries employed as a sugar substitute.

You can make it by slowly dissolving (in a day you will have a good solution) Lead in a solution of vinegar and H2O2. Caution: as a soluble Lead salt, the threat of Lead poisoning is increased through skin contact.

Lets hope your rat has a sweet tooth.
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White Yeti
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[*] posted on 25-8-2011 at 01:13


You could experiment with different rat poisons that are a little less dangerous. How about using metal sulfides for example? In contact with gastric acid, iron sulfide will release H2S, a killer gas almost as poisonous as cyanide. Just one problem though, rats are smart, if they see that their family member ate something and died soon thereafter, other rats won't eat your poison. The most effective poison is so called slow acting poison, where the rats die 72 hours after eating. Thus, they don't remember where they ate something suspicious.
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mario840
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[*] posted on 25-8-2011 at 02:47


thiosemicarbazide will do the job
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dann2
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[*] posted on 25-8-2011 at 14:16
Yum yum



I guess the quick acting poisons will not work for rats and the slow acting one's will not work for elephants?

I have heard of 'hard wall' (plater of paris, Calcium Sulphate +1/2 H2O) being used as a very cheap rat poison. Mix with sugar or something tasty and dry. If its gets wet it's no good. It bungs up the rat. Have not tried it myself.
Anyways, where I come from the rats have rickets so things are not too good...............

Great wee video (to cheer you all up) here, about fake medicines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4-Qyu9KbBo

Bon Appetite!!!!!!!!!!!

Dann2


[Edited on 25-8-2011 by dann2]
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not_important
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[*] posted on 25-8-2011 at 19:45


Most rodent poisons these days are anti-coagulants, only need low does and are slow enough that accidental ingestion by other than the target can be remedied. Vitamin D is another, sometimes used in conjunction with anti-coagulants. Zinc phosphide is a faster acting poison, usually in rotation with one or more of the previous poisons.

If you must mix your own, try BaCO3 (BaSO4 will _not_ work) mixed with cheese or peanut butter, plus some cereal product to bulk it up. Slow enough acting that they won't quickly come to associate your bait with the deaths of other rats.

But seriously, I'd just buy a commercial product from a feed store.

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mario840
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[*] posted on 25-8-2011 at 22:05


No BaCO3 because it's insoluble in water and LD50 because of it is much higher than BaCl2 which can be used in good effect
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[*] posted on 26-8-2011 at 06:33


The HCl is the rodents digestive system converts the carbonate to the chloride; the carbonate is essentially tasteless which the chloride has a distinctive "unnatural" taste the the rodents will avoid. You don't want water soluble, as it can be leached out of the bait.

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AJKOER
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[*] posted on 8-9-2011 at 20:52


A desperate and certainly dangerous way to make a toxin to kill small animals (cat and dogs included so be aware) would be to prepare a very small quantity of NCl3 vapor which is employed immediately to treat flour. Interestingly for some time, it was actually used to bleach flour so check on my suggested process.

The big problem with this approach is that any condensed liquid NCl3 formed is also an unpredictable highly explosive substance (avoid light, heat, shock, select organic compounds,...) and even small quantities can produce injuries (checkout its history of famous chemists with missing body parts).

However, I do remember reading of dogs dying after consuming bread bleached with Nitrogen trichloride so it may be of use here. Also, humans consuming your flour are apparently not at risk so we have a selective toxin with a preparation issue.
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Neil
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[*] posted on 9-9-2011 at 02:09


Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
A desperate and certainly dangerous way to make a toxin to kill small animals (cat and dogs included so be aware) would be to prepare a very small quantity of NCl3 vapor which is employed immediately to treat flour. Interestingly for some time, it was actually used to bleach flour so check on my suggested process.

The big problem with this approach is that any condensed liquid NCl3 formed is also an unpredictable highly explosive substance (avoid light, heat, shock, select organic compounds,...) and even small quantities can produce injuries (checkout its history of famous chemists with missing body parts).

However, I do remember reading of dogs dying after consuming bread bleached with Nitrogen trichloride so it may be of use here. Also, humans consuming your flour are apparently not at risk so we have a selective toxin with a preparation issue.



Suggesting people create nitrogen trichloride is just daft. Come on, you know better.
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[*] posted on 9-9-2011 at 07:21


Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER  
A desperate and certainly dangerous way to make a toxin to kill small animals (cat and dogs included so be aware) would be to prepare a very small quantity of NCl3 vapor which is employed immediately to treat flour. Interestingly for some time, it was actually used to bleach flour so check on my suggested process.

The big problem with this approach is that any condensed liquid NCl3 formed is also an unpredictable highly explosive substance (avoid light, heat, shock, select organic compounds,...) and even small quantities can produce injuries (checkout its history of famous chemists with missing body parts).

However, I do remember reading of dogs dying after consuming bread bleached with Nitrogen trichloride so it may be of use here. Also, humans consuming your flour are apparently not at risk so we have a selective toxin with a preparation issue.


Ever the fantasist of impossible schemes, eh?

[Edited on 9-9-2011 by blogfast25]




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AJKOER
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[*] posted on 9-9-2011 at 07:48


While I agree with your sentiment, but replicating on a micro level what was produced per a certain process (I speculate on vapor approach) on an industrial scale to bleach flour, may not be totally daft. Apparently, the flour maintains its good taste making it an effective tool against rodents.

On the other side of the coin, letting rodents run wild with the potential spread of deadly diseases (the Black Death for one) to kill people en masse (or, in my opinion, just one unnecessary death as public health officials cannot/will not address the rodent problem especially in poor areas) is not a pleasant alternative either. Also, playing around with some the compounds suggested isn't exactly without risk either to the party making them and/or others.

Also, on a thread on poisons, one should not dismiss the potential terrorist looking for highly lethal toxins. At least my potentially dangerous (only to the party making the NCl3 vapor) suggestion doesn't give a potential terrorist anything useful for dispensing in water reservoirs or the like (NCl3 actually breakdowns in water yielding N2 and Cl2). To the extent that it answers the thread issue, the author is genuine, and ends discussions before someone mentions an inappropriate toxin (that is, highly lethal to humans also in very small doses, and they exist as I am not an expert in this area and can cite one such compound), all the better.

However, I am concerned about innocent animals that could be harmed, but proper dispensing where only rats would have ready access may lessen this threat (also, not having large animals eat all the bait is efficient).

I hope I provided ample warnings on NCl3 for those who may mistakenly think it has any recreational value. Note, I have deliberately avoided mentioning any preparation methods for NCl3.
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[*] posted on 9-9-2011 at 07:54


Preparing your own rodent bait is illegal in quite a few jurisdictions.
If you want to kill rats or mice either use appropriate traps or purchase prepared bait.
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[*] posted on 9-9-2011 at 09:44


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2079


Don't suggest things you know diddle about.

If an evil terrorist was sneaking around looking for evil chemicals to put in our water they could hmm read the USA DOE data base or the text books in the sci madness library (You know the ones about war gasses?). Suggesting people look up and try things that are more likely to end with them and their neighbors in pieces doesn't count as 'not totally daft'. It is totally daft.

NCl3 is terrifying all on its own.
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[*] posted on 9-9-2011 at 10:24


buahahahahahah people here always amaze me, NaCN, NCl3, BaCO3 hahahahah just broke thermometr add to Hg dilute HNO3 you got very good stuff for rats, if you want you can made HgCl2 from that LD50 = 1 mg/kg ---> better then cyanide , safer and close this stupid topic
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