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Author: Subject: Sulphuric Acid in Australia
hissingnoise
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[*] posted on 12-8-2011 at 06:09


I've stated several times on various threads, that SO<sub>3</sub> produces a practically incondensable acid mist when led to water and, BTW, at 700°C the decomposition rate of SO<sub>3</sub> is ~87% . . .
Cracking Na<sub>2</sub>S<sub>2</sub>O<sub>7</sub> proceeds at ~466°C and the issuing gasses are readily absorbed by conc. H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> to form oleum!

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Phthalic Acid
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[*] posted on 12-8-2011 at 18:58


That's a good idea Neil, I'll be sure to try that next time (probably for H2O2). Just went to Tradelink and asked if they sold Moflo drain cleaner. The guy said yeah and I asked for a liter of it. No problems whatsoever, he just said "be careful with it". It was $45 but a liter will last me a while and making it myself would've been vastly more expensive I imagine. Success! :)
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[*] posted on 13-8-2011 at 00:41


Sulfuric acid can be produced in the laboratory by burning sulfur in air and dissolving the gas produced in a hydrogen peroxide solution.

SO2 + H2O2 → H2SO4

this was found on wikipedia...

did you not look through the sullfuric acid wiki before boiling down batery acid?

anyways...

There are some good videos on youtube that demonstrate how to synthesize sulfuric acid using different methods.

The drain cleaner you get from the store will be impure and may contain organic matter that discolors the acid. To purify it boil off the water and then turn up the heat to around 400c for a while. If it is a dark pos drain cleaner it will give off a lot of smoke which is coming from the impurities decomposing. after heating for a while longer the color should clear up and you should be able to see through it eventually. it will most likely be discolored a very nice clear yellow. when no more visual changes are observed you can turn off the heat and store it in the same bottle it came in. (after you wash and dry it. duh)


[Edited on 13-8-2011 by MeSynth]
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Phthalic Acid
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[*] posted on 13-8-2011 at 00:56


First of all, H2O2 in higher than 3% concentrations is just as hard to find as H2SO4 (well in my case anyway) which makes that method not very viable. Second, I didn't boil down battery acid, I bought concentrated stuff over the counter (and boiling down battery acid would've been easier than dealing with burning sulphur and directing gases anyway.)

And I am well aware of the various methods of synthesizing it myself, hence why I was asking about electrolysis of Copper Sulphate. There were a few methods mentioned here that I wasn't aware of though (lead chamber process for example) which sound very interesting. I'd like to have a go at a few just for the practical experience.

And what gives you the impression I need lots of acid? I didn't say anywhere that I needed a certain amount and I got 1L because that'd the smallest bottle they had.
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theflickkk
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[*] posted on 13-8-2011 at 06:32


Personally, I've found it near impossible to obtain sulfuric acid OTC. Firstly, laws regarding the purchase of chemicals is very strict here. Secondly, battery acid can only be obtained together with lead-acid batteries. A lead-acid battery containing approximately 500ml of acid costs roughly 30USD so its really too expensive.
What I've done was to synthesize a small amount of sulfuric acid via a really really long method.
Copper sulfate was prepared from ammonium sulfate hydroponics fertilizer and household ammonia.
A copper sulfate solution was then electrolyzed, filtered and concentrated by boiling down.
Despite being so troublesome, this long winded method is definitely the best I can do for now to get a few mls of conc. H2SO4.
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[*] posted on 13-8-2011 at 19:06


Oh come on guys, you can't find technical grade sulfuric acid in australia? Freakin australia? Really? I buy 99% sulfuric acid in christchurch, new zealand, in 25L containers, without an account, without ID and without any questions from a huge chemical wholesaler for $3/L. Furthermore, I'm sixteen.

All these people giving suggestions about making it and buying drain opener... fucking seriously...

You do not stop searching until you have found it. It's really simple. There are some chemicals I need to import from china because I cannot find them here, but in the end I always find what I need.




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theflickkk
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[*] posted on 13-8-2011 at 23:07


I really wish I could indeed just buy sulfuric acid. Too bad its one of the many chemicals that are banned where I'm from.
Singapore is such a small country so there aren't many chemical wholesalers or people interested in home chemistry. Besides, even chewing gum is banned LOL It may be easy to obtain chemicals where you're from but that doesn't mean that it applies universally.
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MeSynth
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[*] posted on 14-8-2011 at 10:01


Quote: Originally posted by Phthalic Acid  
Hi everyone, thought I better introduce myself since this is my first post (I've been lurking for a while though)...

So I decided to cut my losses and buy some battery acid and boil it down (which I was hoping to avoid.)


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MeSynth
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[*] posted on 14-8-2011 at 20:01


Quote: Originally posted by theflickkk  
I really wish I could indeed just buy sulfuric acid. Too bad its one of the many chemicals that are banned where I'm from.
Singapore is such a small country so there aren't many chemical wholesalers or people interested in home chemistry. Besides, even chewing gum is banned LOL It may be easy to obtain chemicals where you're from but that doesn't mean that it applies universally.


Why dont you move?
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theflickkk
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[*] posted on 15-8-2011 at 02:13



I'm not self-reliant as of now. I hope to be able to study overseas though. Chemistry is definitely one of the factors why I really want to do so. Then again, I'll have to do well for the A levels and SATs if I were to even consider studying abroad D:

[Edited on 15-8-2011 by theflickkk]
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overload
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[*] posted on 16-8-2011 at 22:34


Quote: Originally posted by theflickkk  

I'm not self-reliant as of now. I hope to be able to study overseas though. Chemistry is definitely one of the factors why I really want to do so. Then again, I'll have to do well for the A levels and SATs if I were to even consider studying abroad D:

[Edited on 15-8-2011 by theflickkk]


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Roger86
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[*] posted on 17-8-2011 at 13:28


Where i live(EU), gas station's are obligted to take old car batteries and recycle them, but usually they store those batteries just outside on the back of the station, when i was younger and i was sure no place would sell me sulfuric acid, me and the boys went to those stations and had a funnel and 5l bottle to salvage the treasures of those batteries.As far as i know the gas stations only check security tapes when they are robbed.Where in australia do old car batteries go? do you have to take them to somewhere to be recycled?

But i suspect that sulfuric acid will be harder to come around here as well, because i believe all batteries i'v seen in here are 'non maintentace' ones. Besides car batteries dont cost much to replace so i dont think anyone is really wasting their acid for that:D
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[*] posted on 21-8-2011 at 17:26


Try the motorcycle shop !:o



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bdbstone
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[*] posted on 8-9-2011 at 05:54


Does anybody thought about Ozone method. Its powerfull oxidizer, so it will probably oxidize SO2 to form SO3. I think the reaction will proceed something like this:

SO2 + O3 = SO3 + O2

If H2O2 works than this should work too..
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[*] posted on 12-9-2011 at 18:02


Quote: Originally posted by bdbstone  
Does anybody thought about Ozone method. Its powerfull oxidizer, so it will probably oxidize SO2 to form SO3. I think the reaction will proceed something like this:

SO2 + O3 = SO3 + O2

If H2O2 works than this should work too..


Yes, it works...but you know what, ozone is a bitch.
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[*] posted on 13-9-2011 at 10:52


Btw, I think ozone will oxidize even plain sulfur into SO3.
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[*] posted on 20-3-2012 at 20:29


Quote: Originally posted by Phthalic Acid  
Thanks for the info plante1999! You seem to have a lot of experience with H2SO4, which method did you find was the highest yielding/easiest/cheapest? The lead chamber process is really interesting, I'm reading over the "H2SO4 by the Lead Chamber Process - success" thread right now. Just for the experience I might try both =)

bquirky, that's a good point. Do you think the laws may be different between states (I'm in QLD btw) or is chemical control a federal thing? Thanks for the advice on the cover story haha but I've never had a problem with things like that =) Is there anything else you can think of that I should know about over here regarding chemicals etc.?


Unless you want to lose your chemicals, your glassware and a whole lot of money, time and effort, I'd strongly suggest that you be VERY FUCKING CAREFUL in the Sunshine State (or the wicked witch of the East's Flying Monkey Squad will visit - been there, done that).

I've also had some serious problems purchasing H2SO4 in Queensland, there is a cleaning chemical company (named after a brand of soup - go figure (think Warhol)) that sells 4L plastic containers of it.

But if you want decent H2SO4 make it yourself, SO2 is formed by dripping bunneys bought muriatic on metabisulphite (home brew cleaner). Cl2 is formed by dripping HCl into hypochlorite (ie. domestos or homebrand version). Pass the SO2 gas into distilled water to form sulphurous acid (if you freeze & thaw it a few times it also oxidizes - the clathrates are funky as fuck) which is very endothermic. Pass Cl2 into the sulphurous acid to get H2SO4 and gaseous HCl (so getting two pure acids for the price of one if you pass the HCl into distilled water).

But that is QLD nowadays, everything is so fucking hot since the two major groups of f-wits with leather jackets and patches took to moving to the Sunshine state & pulling 80% of their pseudo runs there.

Be fucking careful if you try and import glassware or get anything by mail.





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[*] posted on 20-3-2012 at 21:21


i also live in australia, and this is a major blockage in chemistry.

i am going to ring the post and ask if there is a way i may get H2SO4 throuh the post.

they sell it on amazon in america, $15 a litre plus shippping is $10.

i saw on a show yesterday that some guy was dissolving dead bodies in the stuff, that'll make me look good:D

Li
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[*] posted on 21-3-2012 at 00:00


Quote: Originally posted by Lithium  
i also live in australia, and this is a major blockage in chemistry.

i am going to ring the post and ask if there is a way i may get H2SO4 through the post. ...
Li


AusPost will NOT ship liquid corrosives. They are even funny about dry powders, especially strong oxidisers or toxic stuff. What's more, most businesses won't even offer to ship same through the post -- most offer only courier services, even for relatively innocuous things such as CuSO4.

For instance, my most recent chem order to Vanbar (photographic chemicals) had to be sent by courier. It was about $20AU for the courier, so I made sure to order lots of chemicals to reduce the pain a bit. (Unfortunately, Vanbar won't even ship GAA via courier; you have to go to their Melbourne location in person -- and, presumably, be obliged to give photo ID and perhaps sign an E.U.D.)

If you don't want to drop by Ace Chemicals, just go to someplace like Mitre 10, Reece Plumbing, or Banner Hardware (in SA). You'll find Momar "Mo Flo" drain cleaner sulphuric acid at about 90% concentration for about $45/litre. It's black and vile looking and it has some kind of corrosion inhibiters in it to protect pipes, but it should be usable for lots of reactions.

-Bobby

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[*] posted on 21-3-2012 at 04:45


I found a decent sulphuric acid drain cleaner in australia its clear and 98% its called maximum power it says it made in waitara nsw,I got it off a friend so can't say where to get it.

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[*] posted on 21-3-2012 at 11:52


thanks Gearhead_Shem_Tov

Li
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[*] posted on 23-3-2012 at 08:27


Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
If you have the ability to reach high temperatures (700C or more) you can decompose CuSO4 or any other sulfate that form an oxide of the metal and SO3, lead the SO3 vapors into water and you can get a very concentrated sulfuric acid, or even oleum! Although its very risky and better just buy the acid from somewhere if you manage to...


The problem I have with that statement is that although it might be true that CuSO4 would decompose to CuO and SO3, the reaction time might be very long.
The next problem is that those SO3 vapors need to be collected and people say that it is hard to condense and that it should be added to a medium concentration H2SO4 solution.

Have you done it?
Or has someone else done it?
Is the procedure practical?
What materials are needed for the container?


[Edited on 23-3-2012 by vmelkon]
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[*] posted on 23-3-2012 at 15:35


Quote: Originally posted by vmelkon  
Quote: Originally posted by Mixell  
If you have the ability to reach high temperatures (700C or more) you can decompose CuSO4 or any other sulfate that form an oxide of the metal and SO3, lead the SO3 vapors into water and you can get a very concentrated sulfuric acid, or even oleum! Although its very risky and better just buy the acid from somewhere if you manage to...


The problem I have with that statement is that although it might be true that CuSO4 would decompose to CuO and SO3, the reaction time might be very long.
The next problem is that those SO3 vapors need to be collected and people say that it is hard to condense and that it should be added to a medium concentration H2SO4 solution.

Have you done it?
Or has someone else done it?
Is the procedure practical?
What materials are needed for the container?


[Edited on 23-3-2012 by vmelkon]



<b>U</b>se <b>T</b>he <b>F</b>orum <b>S</b>earch <b>E</b>nigine!

It can be done. Copper sulfate is not the best salt to employ here. Surely you all have swimming pools in Oz...
Also, note that venting sulfur trioxide into water instead of sulfuric acid would be catastrophic, IIRC.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=10217


[Edited on 24-3-2012 by Bot0nist]




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[*] posted on 23-3-2012 at 23:56


The Supercheap Auto guy was talking out his arse. There are NO restrictions on H2SO4 in Australia, nor any need for EUDs or identity checks whatsoever.

As far as drain cleaner goes, why buy 1L for $50 when a 20L drum of 98+% pure costs $50 plus freight (maximum of another fifty, and that's if you don't manage to get it freaighted with a supply house's next order).

Just go to a cleaning chem supply house and ask for a 20L drum. Or PM me and let me know what state you're in, and if you're in mine I'll let you have some for free - the only reason I bought 20L was because it was the same price as 1L of adulterated shite.
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[*] posted on 24-3-2012 at 18:23


Ok, I've had a couple questions from other Aussies, so I might as well post what I've found out here in the open.

For QLDers, try emailing info@avantichem.com.au or check out http://www.qldchemicalsupplies.com.au/

For NSW folks, try contacting one of the following:

http://www.truebluechemicals.com.au/
http://www.envirochemicals.com.au/

Just ask if they're able to supply concentrated sulphuric acid, what their lowest quantity is and how much. Remember that you're not doing anything wrong, don't make apologies or excuses if they ask what you want it for or tell you there's some restriction on it and you'll typically come off as a lot less suss ;)
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