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Author: Subject: Exploitation of the global economy, the coming collapse
franklyn
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[*] posted on 15-3-2012 at 15:39


Goldman Sachs has been buying up every Treasury issuance being dumped
thanks to the inaction of it's wholly owned subsidiary the Federal Reserve , in
not implementing the expected quantitative easing. These will of course be
sold back to the Fed in the delayed forthcoming QE at the higher prices they
will command then.

Local, county and state municipalities are resorting to absurd budget
games, borrowing from their employees' pension plans to make this
year's pension plan contribution. How does that work for you ?

Elsewhere in the American scheme of things _

US soldiers were ordered to disarm prior to enduring a speech by
American secretary of defense, Leon Panetta, who was surrounded
by a large security contingent, on his visit to Afghanistan. " There
hasn't been a fragging incident since the Vietnam conflict and we
are not going to let that start now " an anonymous observer said.
" You've got one of the most important people in the world in the
room ". ( Really ? that ranks him right up there with Justin Beiber.)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/9...
We're glad to hear things are going along so splendidly at the front.

.
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[*] posted on 15-3-2012 at 17:13


That is a great quote Rosco. I'm really glad you posted it. I agree with almost every part of what was said.

There is a little bit missing though. Based on the quote, one may be lead to believe that, people are inherently active or passive, but this can not be the case. People can be (and have been forever) influenced to be one or the other by the conditions during their life, particularly childhood. Recently a few greedy people have abused growing scientific, statistical, and technological knowledge to develop complex systems that are capable of producing passive people at a far higher rate of success than imaginable in the past. And now here we are...

At least there is a source of hope, in the fact that people can change. There are ways to make a passive person into an active one. An economic collapse would be one way. The only way I can see to avert a catastrophic collapse would be to develop an effective alternative way to change people before the collapse. Time is probably too short for that now...

Hope you guys like Mitt... Get used to the idea. :(

Quote:

In every presidential race since 1908, in which consistent, real (inflation-adjusted) annual disposable income growth was above 3.3%, the incumbent party holding the White House won every time. When income growth was below 3.3%, the incumbent party lost every time. Again, with redefinitions to the national income accounts in the last two decades, a consistent measure of disposable income as reported by the government has disappeared. Yet, even with the upside biases in official reporting, third-quarter 2011 annual growth in real disposable income was 0.1%, well below the traditional 3.3% limit. This cannot be a happy prospect for the incumbent party holding the White House in 2012.


Edit
One does not have to accept a philosopher's entire writings to see the value in what they have to say on certain subjects.

Quote:

What few fail to realise is that jews love to complain; it is deeply embedded in their culture (and probably genetics also, in my opinion).


You are really not helping your credibility here, just stop spewing that crap now. If you still want to wax on about it in another thread, go for it, but please not in this one.

[Edited on 16-3-2012 by 497]

[Edited on 16-3-2012 by 497]




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[*] posted on 15-3-2012 at 17:27


Poverty is one of the greatest threats to freedom.
When there develops a large segment of the populace that is impoverished, more government intervention is demanded.

A "free" market is only stable within a relatively constrained set of prerequisites. An large oversupply of labor could potentially upset this balance.

I do not like Ayn Rand. She made one good point, but did she really have to write so many books to express it? And her philosophy is much more than simply economics. Her thoughts bordered on psycopathic. I am fairly sure that RoscoBodine would not like her so much if he knew the rest of her philosophy (especially in regards to personal morals) ...

What few fail to realise is that jews love to complain; it is deeply embedded in their culture (and probably genetics also, in my opinion). Whether it was Marx or Rand, they complain about whatever the current state of affairs is. Ayn Rand would have no doubt been a communist if she lived in Britain during the Industrial age, and Karl Marx would have been a free market devient had he had parents that fled the Soviet Union.

Do not believe me?
http://stuffjewishpeoplelike.com/tag/jews-love-to-complain/

[Edited on 16-3-2012 by AndersHoveland]
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 15-3-2012 at 19:09


Ayn Rand was a secular libertarian purist and her objectivism philosophy and analysis is refreshingly intellectually honest humanism with which I find myself almost but not quite in 100% agreement, but very close. There is I think a balance to be struck in the morality aspect of philosophy which is perhaps 90% objectivism with a vigilantly guarded tolerance of some part.... say 10% conservatism allowed as a tithe to "altruism" .......understanding that angel of light may be lucifer and it is not good that he should be overfed, but only given his due :D At the 100% setting Rands razor would tend to shave a bit close, so close as to cut too many throats :D Wasn't she sharp !

Somebody please send Obama a portrait of Ayn Rand T-shirt and maybe get a commemorative postage stamp and an Ayn Rand national holiday made official !
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[*] posted on 15-3-2012 at 20:03


I'm not sure what people's views are, but Obama seems like the most good-intentioned of all the people left in the race. The Republican idiot voters by a large neglected one honest guy in Ron Paul, so I'll have to go with the 2nd best alternative.

Obama is scrutinized as being too cautious to jump in wars. I like that. He is "speculated" of not being friendly with AIPAC. I like that even more and would be excellent if true. He is not giving up on alternative energy unlike the oil hookers in the current Republican primaries. Solyndra failed? 500 million dollars wasted? Big freaking whoop. We wasted a billion a month every month in Iraq blowing up sand dunes. Or we gave billions to Israel and Afghanistan! Motha....what exactly did that give us for the return? I'd rather be wasting that money on companies here trying to create our energy independence and better our dying environment. Obama wants more taxation for the wealthy? What do I care...nobody who really earned tens of millions has done it honestly. Mitt Romney has really done a lot by screwing over manufacturing companies when he was "equity CEO". Damn, spineless crook.

I can't watch Fox News for 10 minutes without getting mad at the BS they are spewing. Rupert Murdoch needs to die of some vicious form of leukemia or whatever other most painful illness is.

[Edited on 16-3-2012 by EatsKewls]
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 05:56


Quote: Originally posted by 497  
That is a great quote Rosco. I'm really glad you posted it. I agree with almost every part of what was said.

Yeah....Ayn Rand has a lot of clarity....but there is I think that aspect of a purist which is playfully tongue in cheek and meant to be abrupt and shocking in order to get through the more general idea....and it reminds me of the old saying about the formula one must use when communicating with a jackass ......first you must whack 'em up side the head with a 2X4 to get their attention....then you can whisper to them what it is you want them to hear. Ayn Rand is the walking 2X4. An intellectual for sure, having tremendous analytical prowess and real depth ....and one must navigate past the shock value of the clarity of her logic to hear the thing being whispered that she is saying. Rand is to the secular libertarian what William F. Buckley Jr. is to the Christian conservative, and there is a tongue in cheek playfulness about both those geniuses. They don't make 'em like they used to.
Quote:

There is a little bit missing though.

That excerpt was just a verse or two from Rand, and it was a wartime article of WWII for Readers Digest, not written for an academic journal, written by a Russian immigrant still mastering English. But I'd say no one has to grade Rand on a curve.
Quote:
Based on the quote, one may be lead to believe that, people are inherently active or passive, but this can not be the case.
Certainly it can and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Some people are talented to be leaders and some are talented to be followers, and Rand seemed conspicuously biased towards the leader psyche .....of course because that was her own psyche. But in a world as they say it takes all kinds, and IMO there is not greater virtue in being a good leader for example than in being a good follower, they are simply different roles, and the numbers are different, but it isn't like a leader is necessarily a better person than a follower. The conductor of an orchestra may be a clumsy musician with an instrument in hand, but a genius while holding a baton and using his ears to know what a hundred musicians should each do.
Quote:
People can be (and have been forever) influenced to be one or the other by the conditions during their life, particularly childhood. Recently a few greedy people have abused growing scientific, statistical, and technological knowledge to develop complex systems that are capable of producing passive people at a far higher rate of success than imaginable in the past. And now here we are...

Yes but the ambition and greed and evil is nothing new, it is a very old adversary dressed up in a modern more fashionable suit and seeming more stylishly contemporary.
Quote:

At least there is a source of hope, in the fact that people can change. There are ways to make a passive person into an active one.
I would disagree that should be a goal.
Some people have no ambition to achieve very much in life, but that is not necessarily equal to failure nor is it a malignancy which must be "cured". For example a mechanic does not need a college degree, yet may be a perfectly good mechanic their entire life and never wish to be any more. A fisherman or a farmer are other examples. Education to a certain extent is good of course, but the idea that everyone needs to attend college is just plain wrong.
Quote:
An economic collapse would be one way. The only way I can see to avert a catastrophic collapse would be to develop an effective alternative way to change people before the collapse. Time is probably too short for that now...

Hope you guys like Mitt... Get used to the idea. :(

No conservatives like Mitt, he just seems too slick .....
not quite for real. Maybe if he gets a cowboy hat and
rides horses more .....

Quote:

In every presidential race since 1908, in which consistent, real (inflation-adjusted) annual disposable income growth was above 3.3%, the incumbent party holding the White House won every time. When income growth was below 3.3%, the incumbent party lost every time. Again, with redefinitions to the national income accounts in the last two decades, a consistent measure of disposable income as reported by the government has disappeared. Yet, even with the upside biases in official reporting, third-quarter 2011 annual growth in real disposable income was 0.1%, well below the traditional 3.3% limit. This cannot be a happy prospect for the incumbent party holding the White House in 2012.


Yeah and there really is a "stuck on stupid" aspect which has to be recognized that is alienating the dems as being the party of the lunatic fringe, rather than the more traditional
"party of the people" kind of more centrist track of the old democratic party of decades past. Obama makes Bill Clinton look like a conservative. People will look at the economy
and particularly fuel prices and understand that windmills and solar panels and algae are not realistic solutions and
Obama will be gone just like Jimmy Carter was gone ....
a one term wonder with people saying good riddance as they wave goodbye...saying nice try there....but no cigar.
The guy was just in over his head and his head is too big to know it. The only change the country needs is a change back to fundamentals that worked, not more of the same regulatory and legislative and budgetary poison that has toxified the country nearly to death already.



[Edited on 16-3-2012 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 06:26


You say conservatives don't like Mitt Romney, yet Obama is one-term....then who is the president? Between Romney and Obama it isn't hard to decide. Mitt Romney talks about how he created jobs....bhahawhile piling up cash, putting debt on those companies he invested in and then closing them down. Big "job creator".

Solar panels and whatever other alternative sources of energy we can find should all be explored. This country needs the alternative energy Manhattan Project 2 in order to come up with something that can support the entire nation's energy needs. China is working fervently to free itself from middle-eastern oil.

If Obama wants to support study of algae or whatever other microorganisms that can free us up from oil, realistic or not, he should be supported. Internet and computers for everyone seemed "unrealistic" in 1980's too.

Anyone has any better suggestions for "alternative energy". Coal, oil, and gas are always going to get hedged and speculated. And then run out, while we all have air like Mexico City. Yay.
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 06:30


vote green :)

Ranked voting would be a saving grace for this country.




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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 07:13


No the country does not need a black hole of hope and change sucking down more crony capitalism stimulus money wasted on bogus feel good energy non-solutions which aren't bona fide solutions for supplying the energy needs of an industrialized nation. What the country needs is about fifty nuclear plants and cheaper more abundant energy of every type including fuel for internal combustion engines. That is the reality. Until what is the reality is addressed with the projects necessary to meet the need, the country will languish with the death spiral it has entered until it crashes and burns. That will not be allowed to occur because some persons insist that it be that way to serve their destructive ideology ....taking down a population of more rationally thinking persons with them into the abyss made by their own delusional "radical green" lunacy deliberately integrated with collectivist lunacy, neither of which lunatic philosophies or their consequence are acceptable or valid.
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 07:23


rosco you're bent on ever improvement and unrealistic ideologies of constructionism and bologna idealism of a perfect industrialization state.

You wouldn't stop until you had infinite energy, the largest boat, the biggest house, the loudest truck, the most HD TV, and the best premium channels

The world doesn't need a bunch of consumerism zombies who are so swayed by materialistic ideologies they consume themselves at any cost. The only way to satiate your hunger for improvement is to bypass reality - thermodynamics is your ultimate enemy. :)




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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 07:38


Your continued propagandizing is tiresome. You are a defeatist who wants everyone elses self-esteem and ambition and living standard to be lowered to being the same zero or minimalist expectation which is you own. If you want to take a vow of poverty and include whatever in that proposition you wish to endure for achieving your own nirvana ....go for it ......alone. Build yourself a hut on Walden pond and sort it all out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden

[Edited on 16-3-2012 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 09:33


Quote:

I would disagree that should be a goal. Some people have no ambition to achieve very much in life, but that is not necessarily equal to failure nor is it a malignancy which must be "cured". For example a mechanic does not need a college degree, yet may be a perfectly good mechanic their entire life and never wish to be any more. A fisherman or a farmer are other examples. Education to a certain extent is good of course, but the idea that everyone needs to attend college is just plain wrong.


You're misunderstanding me. I'm not implying any education in the current system are likely to accomplish such a "conversion." The mechanic, fisherman, and the farmer are not who I'm talking about, nor are they the problem. The half of the country that does literally nothing but what they're told at their mcdonald's job, and on their TV, are the problem. They need a serious "jolt" to snap them out of their mindless trance. One way or another they'll get it. Either from their water pressure/electricity being gone for days, or something else.

I highly recommend everyone here watches/reads DMT The Spirit Molecule to get a better idea of another way to wake a person up. Primary religious experience is probably the most reliable known way to bring a person into reality and a state of self respect.

You don't need acres of land to be nutritionally self sufficient. Google aquaponics, moringa, and duckweed. It takes no more than an average backyard to support your family in a pinch. No large investments required. Based on the rest of this thread I'm guessing I'm wasting my time talking about this...




A word to the wise: NEUROFEEDBACK

http://citizenworks.org/corp/dg/s2r1.pdf
http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/mg21228354.500-re...
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-414-hyperinflation-spe...

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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 09:57


So ......instead of superhighways for automobiles and skyways for jet airliners
for beef fed commuters in a modern idustrialized nation, through the use of hallucinogenic drugs there should be accomplished a religious conversion of everyone to being bicyclists dining on duckweed ?
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 10:42


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Your continued propagandizing is tiresome.
Remember that thing about pots and kettles? You've done far more propagandizing on this thread than anybody. Yours is just as tiresome as his.
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 10:57


Misleading information involved in what you would say is propaganda is something you should identify.
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 11:19


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Misleading information involved in what you would say is propaganda is something you should identify.
Don't try to confuse the issue by thinking that propaganda consists only of the counterfactual, the misleading, the deceptive, or the other kin of lies. There are plenty more forms of propaganda than that, and a large fraction of what you've said is propaganda. Take, for example, this statement of yours, which I've selected because it's nowhere near the first time you've expressed it:
Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
What the country needs is about fifty nuclear plants and cheaper more abundant energy of every type including fuel for internal combustion engines. That is the reality.
This is an opinion. It's not an assertion that's either true or false, it's your opinion about a good course of action for the future. And your tireless repetition of this has made it your propaganda.

Mind you, I think you're also spreading the counterfactual kind of propaganda, too, but I have zero interest in even bringing it up, since, first, I have seen zero interest in you in listening, in good faith, to people you disagree with, and second, I haven't seen any counterfactual assertions about science from you.
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 11:32


Oh I see so factual persuasive argument which is counter to your agenda is propaganda. Propaganda has nothing to do with being generally misleading or exaggerating. That's not what the dictionary says about it so that must be your opinion.

About the nuclear plants well to be perfectly honest it may be 37 which are needed or 56 which are needed. Also is needed cheaper more abundant fuel for internal combustion engines. Transition technology to an alternative is not available in the present era.

So no it isn't an opinion. Coal fired powerplants are being shut down without any replacement for the generating capacity. How is it an opinion that nuclear power generating plants must be brought online? Is the anticipated upgrade replacement going to be technology which is not yet invented or does not otherwise exist? Hot swapping and seamless transition is an intelligent plan for critical strategic needs type infrastructure, as are electric power and transportation. When has it happened differently that among the first things mass responders to a disaster scenario are tasked with doing is not clearing the roads for vehicles, restoring power so that power and transportation are restored ....and why is that done ASAP ....other than because it is vital infrastructure. Likewise follows rescue and medical assistance and restoring water and sewer and food and shelter and security.

Something I find more interesting than what is factual or counterfactual in terms of what is propaganda is what is intelligence in terms of good information and what is counterintelligence in terms of efforts at trying to prevent the identifying and obtaining or publishing of good information ......for whatever purpose may make that information news or propaganda.

[Edited on 16-3-2012 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 12:27


I need to research more into nuclear energy, but it may be the optimized, short-term solution. And yes, the vehicles we currently drive are still run on gasoline and the car-makers still producing same type of cars with same type of internal combustion engine with only a small percentage of hybrid and electric cars. But I do believe government should subsidize the hell out of those electric cars. I will put my tax dollars to that.

And if atomic energy is relatively safe, I'd think it is well worth to start building those stations immediately.
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 12:41


How can you put "your tax dollars" into anything if it is true what you have declared before that you do not care what such things cost since it isn't your money that will be paying for such things, since you are no capitalist and do not subscribe to the "theory" of capitalism ? Have you recently realized that whether or not you like it, through hidden taxes in everything ....if you buy anything at all you are a participant dragged kicking and screaming into that realm of evil capitalism .....even without your knowledge or consent ....that is still the sad reality that you have become conscripted as a "player" :D
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 14:39


Quote:

So ......instead of superhighways for automobiles and skyways for jet airliners for beef fed commuters in a modern idustrialized nation, through the use of hallucinogenic drugs there should be accomplished a religious conversion of everyone to being bicyclists dining on duckweed ?


Hah... Not quite. How about use the duckweed as feed and a source of starch for ethanol (or levulinates for diesel replacement) while simultaneously greatly reducing waste water treatment costs, nutrient runoff and total water usage? 6 times the starch production per acre vs corn, and no need to use agricultural land. And did I mention much greater protein production rate vs soy? So tell me, why not? No need to ride bikes, or eat duckweed if that's not your thing.

Watch the movie I mentioned above and then come back and tell us why hallucinogens aren't the most rapid/effective way to cause a mindless follower to value something other than instant gratification. Or do you think the average US citizin has no need for any consideration of the future? Believe it or not, people will not all of a sudden start caring about themselves or the rest world when the have cheaper energy. Of course it will help, but it is not the all encompassing solution you say it is.

Why the hell not coal as a transitionary energy source? The tech to provide liquid fuel from it is well proven. There is far more of it than we need for the next 20 years, and by then I'm pretty sure alternatives will be viable.

Do not underestimate the magnitude of the wastewater problem either. 100 trillion gallons of raw sewage per year released is not inconsequential! I'm not the first to assert that water will soon be a bigger problem than energy. Duckweed has the proven capability to manage this issue effectively and cheaply. Agriculture is probably a larger contributer to our nutrient waste load, considering we make over 150 million tons of NH3 per year.... So feeding duckweed even 10 million tons of N would yield enough starch to make as much ethanol as the world currently produces. All without the need for much new technology or any centralized industry at all... Sooo what's the problem?


[Edited on 17-3-2012 by 497]




A word to the wise: NEUROFEEDBACK

http://citizenworks.org/corp/dg/s2r1.pdf
http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/mg21228354.500-re...
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-414-hyperinflation-spe...

"To expose a 15 Trillion dollar ripoff of the American people by the stockholders of the 1000 largest corporations over the last 100 years will be a tall order of business."
Buckminster Fuller

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
Albert Einstein
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 14:50


Long lived species tend to fill very stable ecological niches.
Horshoe crabs have been around for a lot longer than we have and I suspect that they will out live us as a species.
I suspect that life on earth will outlive all the primates and even the mammals.
In millions of years time there will be a giant cockroach living on a beach under a dwarf red sun eating blue green algal scunge.
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 15:34


Human populations will die off because they choose to die off. Humans are intelligent enough to survive, but they will not act together collectively in a logical way to save themselves. Most individuals only care about themselves. It is a form of collective suicide.
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 16:03


Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Establishing a legally fixed value of the dollar directly associated with and redeemable for a fixed quantity of energy would cut through all the bullshit... it would fix the problem decades or more into the foreseeable future
Great idea, but I don't think it's going to fix the government's inability to continue manipulating people into being patriotic. Knowledge is power, not money. And knowledge is becoming more and more accessible, empowering the masses. People just aren't going to be as easily fooled as they used to be.

Some quotes on nationalism:
Quote:
I am by heritage a Jew, by citizenship a Swiss, and by makeup a human being, and only a human being, without any special attachment to any state or national entity whatsoever. Albert Einstein, in a letter to Alfred Kneser (7 June 1918); Doc. 560 in The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Vol. 8

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein, as quoted in "What Life Means to Einstein: An Interview by George Sylvester Viereck" The Saturday Evening Post (26 October 1929)

I am against any nationalism, even in the guise of mere patriotism. Privileges based on position and property have always seemed to me unjust and pernicious, as did any exaggerated personality cult. Albert Einstein, My Credo (1932)

Nations whose nationalism is destroyed are subject to ruin. Muammar al-Gaddafi

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nationalism






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I've never read any of Ayn Rand's work before but I really enjoyed the essay Rosco posted.
Quote:
Totalitarianism is collectivism.
I wasn't sure about this. After reading the wikipedia definitions I would say that they are not the same thing. Though collectivism would most likely just set the stage for totalitarianism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism
Quote:
No dictator could rise if men held as a sacred faith the conviction that they have inalienable rights of which they cannot be deprived for any cause whatsoever, by any man whatsoever, neither by evildoer nor supposed benefactor.
But this would require an end to religions and nationalistic indoctrination that forces children to "follow the leader".
Quote:
From the beginning of history, two antagonists have stood face to face, two opposite types of men: the Active and the Passive. The Active Man is the producer, the creator, the originator, the individualist... The Passive Man is... a parasite who expects to be taken care of by others, who wishes to be given directives, to obey, to submit, to be regulated, to be told.
Well said, and this fits very well with my own beliefs.





Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Some people are talented to be leaders and some are talented to be followers, and Rand seemed conspicuously biased towards the leader psyche .....of course because that was her own psyche.
This comes down to the nurture vs. nature argument. Personally I believe it is a nurture issue. I think when parents exert total control over their children and do not allow them to think for themselves, they produce passive children. I'm no psychologist but I'm guessing the human brain will adjust to it's environment and become passive in order to avoid trauma (spanking, punishment, verbal abuse).
Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
The only change the country needs is a change back to fundamentals that worked, not more of the same regulatory and legislative and budgetary poison that has toxified the country nearly to death already.
Capitalism is based on competition. Take for example the board game Monopoly; eventually 1 person will own all the properties and everyone else will be bankrupt. In the real world won't there be similar outcomes if the rich are not taxed and corporations regulated? An overwhelming amount of people are living paycheck to paycheck and worrying about how to feed and house their families. What is a civilized society to do? Housing prices have nearly doubled since the 70's yet average household income has stayed the same, so young and poor people have a much greater hurdle to jump.

http://www.publicaffairs.ubc.ca/2011/10/18/raising-a-family-...

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Coal fired powerplants are being shut down without any replacement for the generating capacity.
Maybe when people can no longer access their facebook accounts because of mandatory blackouts they will be motivated to build and discover new energy sources. :P

[Edited on 17-3-2012 by anotheronebitesthedust]

[Edited on 17-3-2012 by anotheronebitesthedust]
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 18:20


Quote: Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust  
Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Establishing a legally fixed value of the dollar directly associated with and redeemable for a fixed quantity of energy would cut through all the bullshit... it would fix the problem decades or more into the foreseeable future
Great idea, but I don't think it's going to fix the government's inability to continue manipulating people into being patriotic. Knowledge is power, not money.


That's been the mantra of educators forever till they get mugged, and then that illusion vanishes.

Quote:
And knowledge is becoming more and more accessible, empowering the masses. People just aren't going to be as easily fooled as they used to be.
Yes but in and of itself knowledge alone is not power. Think about Stephen Hawking or many other similar examples. Knowledge is an aspect of power but is not power per se. A gift of being well endowed with intellect and knowledge does not necessarily make one powerful. There are some not too bright persons who have had great power.
Quote:

Some quotes on nationalism:

Quote:
I am by heritage a Jew, by citizenship a Swiss, and by makeup a human being, and only a human being, without any special attachment to any state or national entity whatsoever. Albert Einstein, in a letter to Alfred Kneser (7 June 1918); Doc. 560 in The Collected Papers of Albert Einstein, Vol. 8

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. Albert Einstein, as quoted in "What Life Means to Einstein: An Interview by George Sylvester Viereck" The Saturday Evening Post (26 October 1929)

I am against any nationalism, even in the guise of mere patriotism. Privileges based on position and property have always seemed to me unjust and pernicious, as did any exaggerated personality cult. Albert Einstein, My Credo (1932)


Nations whose nationalism is destroyed are subject to ruin. Muammar al-Gaddafi

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nationalism


I would disagree with the absolutist view of both Einstein and Gaddafi as bothe extremes of the spectrum. And I would in greatest part agree with most of the points of both videos, while making note that Horace Mann was making reference to "republican" as of course making reference to the republic form of government not meaning reference to a specific political party ideal or ethic although that could and would be much the same in the context of the present century. Both parties have propagandized textbooks and history for service of "republican" aims.
Quote:

I've never read any of Ayn Rand's work before but I really enjoyed the essay Rosco posted.
Actually Rand was a genius, especially in regards to "rationalism" but the purist or extremist application of her philosophy caused most people to not buy everything at her store as a place for one stop shopping in philosophical terms. Rand must be taken with a grain of salt.....never forgetting that she is Rand like a fixed quantity of predictable "formula" rationality that is undeniable but in many ways it seems almost robotic and cold. She is coldly philosophical though correct in most of what she "analyzed"....I think missing some important points entirely, like a balance needing to be struck between conservative socialism, or altruism, and capitalism was not something I would believe that Rand understood. Neither do I think she understood the balance between logic and faith which can exist like a yin and yang rather than being an irreconcilable conflict or dishonesty. So in some respects Rand was like a monopole magnet a sort of contradiction itself. Clearly she was scarred by being young during the Bolshevik revolution and she lashed out at the ideology responsible which permanently biased her views in an uncompromising but not completely unyielding direction.
I don't like critiquing Rand because she was brilliant so far as that may go and completely forgiven for wherever it may have stopped short of the mark.
Quote:
Quote:
Totalitarianism is collectivism.
I wasn't sure about this. After reading the wikipedia definitions I would say that they are not the same thing. Though collectivism would most likely just set the stage for totalitarianism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivism

Right they are not precisely the same thing but close enough for government work in Readers Digest of 1944 :D That was just a brief snippet of Rand, a hello...good morning America.
Check this linked page for a more definitive comparison
and draw your own conclusions where is the altruism and totalitarianism nexus. You have to get that to understand Rand.
http://freedomkeys.com/collectivism.htm
With regards to the school video there is a book by the protege of Rand which compares the rise of Naziism with the decadence of America, the title is The Ominous Parallels.
havent read it but it looks interesting and since you raised the subject....I don't know if there is an e-book for this
http://www.amazon.com/Ominous-Parallels-Brilliant-parallels-...

Quote:
Quote:
No dictator could rise if men held as a sacred faith the conviction that they have inalienable rights of which they cannot be deprived for any cause whatsoever, by any man whatsoever, neither by evildoer nor supposed benefactor.
But this would require an end to religions and nationalistic indoctrination that forces children to "follow the leader".
Quote:
From the beginning of history, two antagonists have stood face to face, two opposite types of men: the Active and the Passive. The Active Man is the producer, the creator, the originator, the individualist... The Passive Man is... a parasite who expects to be taken care of by others, who wishes to be given directives, to obey, to submit, to be regulated, to be told.

Well said, and this fits very well with my own beliefs.

Yes I think it is mostly true but I would be more charitable in my characterization of the same thing essentially than is Rand. She would be a brutally tough "boss" to work for. :D
Quote:

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Some people are talented to be leaders and some are talented to be followers, and Rand seemed conspicuously biased towards the leader psyche .....of course because that was her own psyche.
This comes down to the nurture vs. nature argument. Personally I believe it is a nurture issue. I think when parents exert total control over their children and do not allow them to think for themselves, they produce passive children.
Parents don't want to break the spirit of their children, but they don't want them to perish during their formative years either, so there must be struck a balance.
Quote:
I'm no psychologist but I'm guessing the human brain will adjust to it's environment and become passive in order to avoid trauma (spanking, punishment, verbal abuse).
I think you may be confusing compliant with passive, compensation with transformation.
Quote:

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
The only change the country needs is a change back to fundamentals that worked, not more of the same regulatory and legislative and budgetary poison that has toxified the country nearly to death already.
Capitalism is based on competition. Take for example the board game Monopoly; eventually 1 person will own all the properties and everyone else will be bankrupt. In the real world won't there be similar outcomes if the rich are not taxed and corporations regulated? An overwhelming amount of people are living paycheck to paycheck and worrying about how to feed and house their families. What is a civilized society to do? Housing prices have nearly doubled since the 70's yet average household income has stayed the same, so young and poor people have a much greater hurdle to jump.

I think you are not making a distinction between trade imbalance and monopoly and fair trade capitalism.
Quote:

http://www.publicaffairs.ubc.ca/2011/10/18/raising-a-family-...

Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  
Coal fired powerplants are being shut down without any replacement for the generating capacity.
Maybe when people can no longer access their facebook accounts because of mandatory blackouts they will be motivated to build and discover new energy sources. :P


"New" like nuclear huh :D
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[*] posted on 16-3-2012 at 18:33


Dear God, that Bill Maher report video of Mississippi really speaks to what myself and few other mentioned here. Pure retardation, not surprisingly coupled with strong belief in Jesus. I also brushed my teeth for 10 minutes after seeing that guy's teeth.

As a side note, not to disturb or insult Rosco, but religion isn't 100% tied to intelligence. It has a sometimes to do with environment. If it was tied 100% to intelligence, Rosco would be a hardcore atheist. Those people in the video are religious because they are quite dumb and lived in generations of religious communities. That video does clearly demonstrate why faith and Christianity is very bad for this country. Those people thoughtlessly vote for liars who put on the mask of faith.

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