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Author: Subject: Exploitation of the global economy, the coming collapse
DerAlte
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anotherbitofdust wrote:

 Quote: The average senior wakes up every morning, drinks his coffee, reads his newspaper and doesn't create or produce anything. Once they all die off their savings and properties will be injected back into the system, and my generation will be able to flourish.

How did you know? I do just that. And a few other things, like responding to idiots on ScienceMadness.

"The economic instability is being caused by the extended lifespans of the baby boomer generation"

I think not: the economic instability is being caused by your generation, which is incapable of saving a cent, incapable of understanding a mortgage contract, and thinks plastic is real money. You live on debt - other peoples's money. And you can't even pay the interest, let alone the principal...

"... doesn't create or produce anything..."

But has created: have you created anything worth while? He (or his wife - we did not have a 60% divorce rate then like you do) are entitled to their savings, if they managed to accrue any, are they not? Or are you a communist?

".. inflated pensions and health care costs.."

You are referring to Government pensions I assume. Private pension are not a matter of public debt. We paid money into those, were forced to by law, whilst if we had the option on privately investing, we could have done far better, considering government's inefficiency and the rise in inflation. That is, if you are smart enough.

As for heath care costs, I agree thay are out of hand these days. But they were not back in the 1970's. Of course, everyone then did not go whining to their doctor with a slight cold. You only went if you were sick. We didn't have 'sick days' which must be taken as vacation days. Most companies that offered a health plan had a minimum annual cost proviso which, provided you had no serious condition, was hard to meet. This kept plan costs low.

"..Once they all die off their savings and properties will be injected back into the system, and my generation will be able to flourish."

Dream on. We intend to spend it all. The idea of letting it fall into the hands of a load of dimwitted welfare addicts is not on our agenda.

Sadly, I do not think your generation will flourish, even given all the welfare you want.

Der Alte
froot
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Ok wouldn't this work? Spoken in layman's terms...

Increasing an indebted country's turnover is the only way I can see a route through this other than handing the keys over to the lender.

So basically, you come to my restaurant and ask for food. I feed you and then you can't pay me. I send you to my kitchen to work for me until your wage settles the account.
Spain goes to Germany and asks for money. Germany gives Spain money and now Spain cannot pay Germany back. Germany goes to Spain, sets up industry and hands them a clock card and tells them to clock in and work for Germany. Germany settles Spain's debt by taking the profits from this industry while creating jobs and boosting Spain's economy. Once settled Germany hands this industry over to Spain, infrastructure and all so that Spain can continue floating. Done and dusted. This may be a long drawn out process but there is no quick fix and the sooner they implement it the better.

We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com
497
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 Quote: handing the keys over to the lender.

I doubt they'd be willing to pass up the opportunity to own countries outright!

So the banks knowingly make risky loans using money that they just created, and then when it turns out nobody can pay them back, they get to own it all...? And then they get huge taxpayer $, subsidies, or nationalization to keep them "afloat" after their little magic trick? Then they get caught throwing lavish parties and retiring with millions, and still nobody really cares? A system with this few people paying attention seems thoroughly doomed. A word to the wise: NEUROFEEDBACK http://citizenworks.org/corp/dg/s2r1.pdf http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/mg21228354.500-re... http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-414-hyperinflation-spe... "To expose a 15 Trillion dollar ripoff of the American people by the stockholders of the 1000 largest corporations over the last 100 years will be a tall order of business." Buckminster Fuller "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it." Albert Einstein AndersHoveland Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures! Posts: 1986 Registered: 2-3-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood That is the very nature of "money" in the USA. The value of the US dollar is about 50 percent all those residential mortgages held by the Federal Reserve Bank (and its subsiduaries), and 50 percent US Treasury bonds. In other words half of a dollar is just houses. If all the houses just disappeared, the dollar would suddenly become worth half as much. If the USA completely defaulted on all its debt, the dollar would also become worth half as much. The value of money also comes from the governments right to impose taxation. Theoretically any form of economic exchange between two individuals is subject to this tax, even if money is not used as the medium of exchange. If I trade 10 apples for 10 bananas, I have to give the "fair market value" of a certain percentage of those bananas to the government. So I must sell 1 banana (if the tax is 10%) to someone to get the money to pay the taxes. And what does the government do with the money they collect? Essentially they buy my banana. If the government does not want my banana, the market price will essentially be zero, and then I will not have to pay any taxes on it. Of course, it is more complicated than this, but this example shows the basic concept. This actually led to some interesting problems in the USA when the only form of money was gold, because some people had no gold to pay their taxes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion For simplification, let us assume the only tax was the income tax. If everyone became completely self-sufficient, and if everyone paid off their mortgages, the US dollar would essentially become completely worthless. The common myth that money is merely worthless paper, and is only a neutral medium of exchange, is simply NOT true. The US dollar is a bank note, and as such is backed by the reserve assets held by the issuing bank (in this case the Federal Reserve Bank). Paper money is very different from gold in this way, because the price of gold is very much higher than its actual worth, and gold actually is a neutral medium of exchange in many ways. All too many people mistakenly assume that people would still use paper money as a medium of exchange if those notes were not backed by anything. But is the Federal Reserve illegally getting the Treasury to print more money for them than they have reserve assets to back it? Yes! Where do you think they get the money to try to artificially alter interest rates? [Edited on 20-4-2012 by AndersHoveland] DerAlte International Hazard Posts: 779 Registered: 14-5-2007 Location: Erehwon Member Is Offline Mood: Disgusted The increasing wages in China and the very high cost of energy (especially natural gas) plus a scarcity of some raw materials there are causing a re-think. Another factor is the cost of transportation from a remote location, important for large bulky items. Since Natural gas is plentiful and cheap in the US, chemical industries and large equipment manufacturers are especially concerned – computer, etc. less so. See also the video by Cramer (I usually can’t stand the guy!) on the cnbc.com main page: Large Manufacturers More Likely to Move From China to US http://www.cnbc.com/id/47097720 Fears Rise That Recovery May Falter in the Spring http://www.cnbc.com/id/47114936 (A general overview). Excerpt: Most of all, officials will urge Europe to bolster economic growth in countries like Italy and Spain, while raising new lending capacity for the monetary fund itself. “With the anxieties late last year, I think the E.C.B.’s extraordinary actions were appropriate, but I think some misled themselves because they only bought time,” said Robert B. Zoellick, the outgoing head of the World Bank, on Thursday. “Further actions are going to be called for.” Domestically, most analysts still see an economy with a self-sustaining recovery, if not a spectacular one. “These things just don’t go up in a straight line,” Mr. Shepherdson said. “It is a tango.” This story originally appeared in The New York Times Der Alte Goorlap Harmless Posts: 29 Registered: 15-11-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by anotheronebitesthedust The economic instability is being caused by the extended lifespans of the baby boomer generation. They are taxing the system with their inflated pensions and health care costs. The average senior wakes up every morning, drinks his coffee, reads his newspaper and doesn't create or produce anything. Once they all die off their savings and properties will be injected back into the system, and my generation will be able to flourish. That would be true, if world population would decrease, which isn't the case, of course [Edited on 20-4-2012 by Goorlap] Life is short. Enjoy it DerAlte International Hazard Posts: 779 Registered: 14-5-2007 Location: Erehwon Member Is Offline Mood: Disgusted Worth a read: Brusca: The Euro's Death...and a German End Game? http://www.cnbc.com/id/47120477 Excerpt: The references made by the IMF laud LTRO and generally applaud can-kicking (as in "down the road") without reference to real fixing. Indeed, there is no reference to what is really wrong in the Zone: None at all. It mentions Eurozone break up as a throw-away line under the heading "tail risk." Der Alte Rosco Bodine International Hazard Posts: 6331 Registered: 29-9-2004 Member Is Offline Mood: analytical Austrian school of economics ....... http://mises.org/page/1443/What-is-Austrian-Economics True liberalism ....classical liberalism.....is about freedom ...and is absolutely not the "liberalism" of 2012 propaganda "newspeak" http://mises.org/daily/4113 Ludwig von Mises Institute http://mises.org/page/1468/Biography-of-Ludwig-von-Mises-188... http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Mises_Institute Mises Institute Media online 34 playlist lectures http://www.youtube.com/user/misesmedia/videos?view=1 361 videos http://www.youtube.com/user/misesmedia/videos?view=0 Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito (Latin: Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it) Judge Andrew Napolitano lecture at Mises Institute <iframe sandbox width="622" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0sNWbiAMf80" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Ron Paul comment on Mises Institute and Napolitano <iframe sandbox width="622" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/OhZManp0Oaw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> [Edited on 24-4-2012 by Rosco Bodine] dann2 International Hazard Posts: 1523 Registered: 31-1-2007 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood " Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it" Thank goodness the Red Indian did not have the power to action this (glorious honourable and just) maxim or the pesky gits would have denied many European immigrants there honest rights and resources. Dann2 Where's that link of the banned cartoon making my point clearer............ FFS franklyn International Hazard Posts: 2993 Registered: 30-5-2006 Location: Da Big Apple Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Stay ahead of the pack, avoid large crowds through small doors. A critical fiscal re-evaluation likely in the next three weeks. Where do Park Avenue dowagers park their investment trust ? A substantial portion doubtlessly contains U.S. Treasury securities. As an asset class it has done spectacularly well over the past 30 years with compounded growth, compared to gold which remained stagnant for most of the same period and only in the last ten years appreciated by a factor of six. A rare insight into this stealth investment discussed in depth at the end of 2011 here => www.wealthtrack.com/previous_12-30-2011.php [file]18481[/file] Who owns what => www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Docum... I believe that China was tipped off that 30 year treasuries would be bought up last year when China bought out ~ 150 Billion worth beginning in June then gradually sold those off during the remainder of the year reaping a windfall with operation twist initiated in August. All others buyers have continued to increase their holdings. A chart plotting the action in the last few years of 30 year Treasury bonds (TLT Fund) relative to the €uro / Dollar currency pair (FXE Fund) www.marketwatch.com/investing/fund/FXE/charts?countryCode=US... Note the cyclical correspondence when the €uro loses value in global equity crashes, treasury bonds escalate inversely to all other assets. An impending plunge in the value of the €uro will characteristically send U.S. Treasury assets briskly upward. http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000085610&startTim... Understanding the Modern Monetary System http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Delivery.cfm/SSRN_ID2031797_code1264969.pdf [Edited on 25-4-2012 by franklyn] gregxy National Hazard Posts: 421 Registered: 26-5-2006 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood Money is also going into real estate, but not through the normal channel. Here in San Jose for each house sold on the normal market at least 3 are sold through the auction on the court house steps. Purchase at these auctions is tricky, the relators don't want to mess with it, you need all cash in hand and it seems to be difficult to get the full title. The banks are now starting to lease properties back to their owners instead of forclosing and selling them. So much for the dream of a home for every American. If I believed in conspiracies I'd say this one went exactly as planned. bquirky National Hazard Posts: 316 Registered: 22-10-2008 Location: Perth Western Australia Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood *Looks around at pigeons pecking at the ground* *lobs in an angry cat & runs* Climate change alarmist warnings all hot air, says British scientist James Lovelock http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/climate-cha... GreenD International Hazard Posts: 615 Registered: 30-3-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: Totally f***ing high, man!  Quote: Originally posted by bquirky *Looks around at pigeons pecking at the ground* *lobs in an angry cat & runs* Climate change alarmist warnings all hot air, says British scientist James Lovelock http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/climate-cha... Did you read the article? "Every single year from 2001 on has been one of the 13 hottest years on record and the clear scientific evidence is that it is human activities driving temperatures ever higher ... we can't get complacent about what needs to be done," she said." ʃ Ψ*Ψ Keepin' it real. Check out my new collaborated site: MNMLimpact.com DerAlte International Hazard Posts: 779 Registered: 14-5-2007 Location: Erehwon Member Is Offline Mood: Disgusted For naysayers and doomsdaymen: Cramer: The Best Run U.S. Companies http://www.cnbc.com/id/47174146 I don’t like Cramer much but have to agree on his assessment. I own – and am glad to own – five of these and wish I owned a sixth. Dupont, to be precise. I wanted to buy a bundle of this in 2009 @20 as a dividend play but my broker strongly advised against. His co. probably didn’t make a market in it. Should have followed my hunch, Dupont closed @ 53 odd today and still yields 3.7% and the dividend is still the same. So I was wrong about Apple, temporarily. But come back next year. Remember RIM, Nokia and other essentially one product companies. Re Europe, I refuse to keep posting Cassandra-like comments. However, I would like to hear our European friends here comment from a European viewpoint. @ bquirky & GreenD: Off Topic Please do not pollute this thread with AGW. I don't really blame GreenD for replying but suggest Bq keep on topic. GreenD has a thread going where GW/AGW is rearing its ugly head again... Der Alte Rosco Bodine International Hazard Posts: 6331 Registered: 29-9-2004 Member Is Offline Mood: analytical Understanding the monetary system for dummies <iframe sandbox width="622" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/yCdlsZLNSJE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Back to the future ?? .....hehehe .....who's da man ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Transparency_Ac... For three years Congress has been trying to pry the door open for bank examiners to audit the Fed ..... (and an audit of the gold inventory of Fort Knox and Manhattan bullion respositories would be done too) http://www.fitsnews.com/2011/06/16/is-there-gold-in-fort-kno... Yet for the same three years there is not even a bona fide government operating budget ...so just WTF is really going on ? ? ? ? Does anybody have a clue ? [Edited on 26-4-2012 by Rosco Bodine] franklyn International Hazard Posts: 2993 Registered: 30-5-2006 Location: Da Big Apple Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood " Now is the winter of our discontent , made glorious summer " Richard the III - Shakespeare http://seekingalpha.com/article/532871-this-is-why-i-am-buyi... . Rosco Bodine International Hazard Posts: 6331 Registered: 29-9-2004 Member Is Offline Mood: analytical NG to methanol and NG to gasoline Every year NG is simply flared off as a waste product which if converted to liquid fuel as methanol or gasoline would replace something like a quarter of the gasoline presently used if the flared NG was converted. As a bonus the converted NG to liquid fuel is economically viable and it reduces CO2 emission while conserving petroleum reserves. Further consideration should be given to the abundance of NG which has become available as a synthesis raw material even more appealing for synfuel production than coal gasification synfuel processes which are more expensive and less efficient, while understanding also that no coal reserves are being flared off continuously as a CO2 contributing waste product. Presently NG to methanol production costs about 75 cents per gallon and methanol produced is sold at$1.25 per gallon. As an automotive fuel methanol has about 67% the energy content of gasoline ....however it is higher octane and results in about 10% horsepower increase in the same engine which is why methanol is used as a racing fuel.
Flexfuel automobiles can use it directly. Methanol is considered to be a superior fuel to ethanol and can also be blended with gasoline, but requires no diversion of agricultural land to fuel production as does ethanol. Therefore, the use of methanol does not produce a collateral unitended consequence of increasing food prices for the diversion of animal feed to fuel production. Methanol also can be produced from cellulosic feedstocks more efficiently than can ethanol.

Natural gas can be efficiently converted not only to methanol but all the way to gasoline at about a 10% efficiency penalty for the added steps. It is a commercially viable process which was used in New Zealand for years to produce a substantial fraction of the gasoline need there, and the conversion process was developed by the Mobil oil company.

Huge reserves of NG presently exist and are available.
The technology for NG conversion is available and is proven.
On site NG to methanol conversion units are even operated
on some offshore platforms as an alternative to flaring as waste the NG because the conversion is cheaper than either wasting the NG by flaring it, cheaper than transporting it compressed by pipeline or liquifying the NG for tanker transport.

There seems to be no technical reason why economically viable dollar a gallon gasoline could not be made available very quickly and kept available for the foreseeable future for the next hundred years if there was genuine interest in accomplishing that task.

Likewise there are technically feasible nuclear power generation schemes for making available cheap electricity for a very long time into the future many times beyond just that next one hundred years.

But neither of these technologies will be implemented by government which acts to discourage the development and availability of cheap fuel and cheap electricity. Such development can only occur when government gets out of the way as an obstacle to the industry which can then supply the cheap abundant clean energy needs.

To achieve the aims of the "green energy revolution" which is so vocally demanded by the masses .....will require that the Marxist revolution which has been underway instead, take a powder and take a hike .....once and for all.

<iframe sandbox width="622" height="350" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wK94mZ465LI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Patrick Henry with a skirt is what they call Monica Crowley
(She has a philosophically challenged wayward brother-in-law named Alan Colmes)

watson.fawkes
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 Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine Every year NG is simply flared off as a waste product which if converted to liquid fuel as methanol or gasoline would replace something like a quarter of the gasoline presently used if the flared NG was converted.
Compressing the natural gas is likely to be more economical all around. It doesn't need to go straight to retail to get started; it can get going with fleet vehicles that already fuel at depot. Read about Fred Smith, founder of FedEx, on energy trends. They'll be converting their fleet over the next few years to CNG and electrical vehicles. My guess is that they'll also be installing micro-generators running on NG at their charging stations. But also note his comments on CNG filling stations on interstate routes.
Rosco Bodine
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Converting the NG to an easily storable non-cryogenic liquid like methanol is a better more practical and more economical way to go for the individual consumer than either compressed NG or LNG fleet conversion scenarios. Gasoline and diesel are the standard fuels they are regardless of the original raw material feedstock. See atached file for a description of the NG to methanol conversion. Also some old discussion from years ago at a chevy volt blog is at the following link .....

[file]18548[/file]

Attachment: Topsoe_large_scale_methanol_prod_paper.pdf (388kB)

franklyn
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A horse ! a horse ! my kingdom for a horse !
Richard the III - Shakespeare

www.cnbc.com/id/47112006

http://seekingalpha.com/article/539651-coming-week-market-mo...

www.bloomberg.com/markets/economic-calendar

http://seekingalpha.com/article/543231-it-s-time-to-cut-your...

_______________________________

Spain is an economy robbed of all promise, backed by
the full lack of faith and credit of eroding bond valuation

http://seekingalpha.com/article/542011-22-signs-that-the-col...

http://soberlook.com/2012/04/spains-loan-delinquencies-accel...

________________________________

.

[Edited on 30-4-2012 by franklyn]
Rosco Bodine
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Here's another paper linked from that chevy volt forum whioch describes the conversion of NG to methanol and the conversion of the methanol to gasoline.

Attachment: NG to methanol to gasoline.pdf (234kB)

AndersHoveland
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Some of those schemes are rather silly and ignorant of economic realities.

I have both seen proposed schemes to convert hydrogen to natural gas, and other schemes to convert natural gas to hydrogen! Obviously one of these ideas (if not both) are economically pointless!

The conversion of one form of fuel/energy to another usually consumes a large quantity of energy itself. I think the most practical solution is to just try to directly use the type of energy available. For example, just modify cars to use natural gas. And rather than trying to convert crops into biofuel, just use these crops to power wood-gas generators for electrical production, to offset the burning of natural gas for electrical production.

If hydrogen is desired, it would be more economical to simply chemically convert the wood gas into hydrogen, rather than burning the wood gas to power a generator to make electricity to use for the electrolysis of water, which would be far less efficient.

For hydrogen fuel cell transportation, liquified natural gas could be converted onboard into hydrogen using a heated catalyst bed. It is easier to store liquified natural gas than hydrogen. The transportation could also have a regular combustion motor that could initially burn the natural gas (the resulting heat used to initiate the catalyst bed). This would be a sort of hybrid, with both electrical and internal combustion motors, but both ultimately running off the same fuel.

Despite the opening comment in this post, it can actually potentially be more efficient to convert the fuel into hydrogen, since hydrogen fuel cells are so much more efficient at generating electric power than steam turbines. There are already some prototype coal power plants in operation that first convert the coal into hydrogen, for higher efficiency.

[Edited on 30-4-2012 by AndersHoveland]
Rosco Bodine
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Ya think? Silly me huh. And silly Mobil Oil.
franklyn
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www.cnbc.com/id/47232833
same video longer duration _
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000087304

Egan Jones has today lowered Spain's credit rating ,
www.zerohedge.com/news/egan-jones-cuts-spain-second-time-two...

May 3 , European Central Bank ( ECB ) council meeting

May 6 , French and Greek elections

May , Bond Issuance

[file]18557[/file]

[Edited on 30-4-2012 by franklyn]

DerAlte
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Spain Default Could Hit US Market 10%-20%: Economist

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47232833

Although I feel this is a gross exaggeration, and a few % likely at most, some points made are valid.

Excerpt:
Spain's problems are far worse than what happened in Greece, he added. "Spain has higher unemployment than Greece, higher total public and private debt than Greece," as well as a bigger housing bubble, a higher percentage of subprime mortgages, and the country has "one of the highest percentages of debt owed to foreigners," Dent said. He called Spain one of those nations that are "too big to fail, too big to bail."

Der Alte
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Non-chemistry » Detritus » Exploitation of the global economy, the coming collapse Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Detritus   » Test Forum