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Author: Subject: Diphoronepentaperoxide (DPPP)
fatkangaroo
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[*] posted on 27-1-2005 at 14:47


Well I have playing with the stuff this morning and I can find no major differences between the 3 substances. I was using medicine capsules for containers each one held less than a gram. I only used fuse for ignition. All I can do different now is try to use a small detonater to see if the DPPP will go to hyper speed. :cool: Anyway I have decided to go back to square one and started a new batch.
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 27-1-2005 at 15:02
DPPP appears intermediate between AP and HMTD


That's the way it is looking to me so far at 9.5 mm diameter . The density of the stuff is low and that looks like it could be improved by recrystallization . Or perhaps an ideal condition of acidity , temperature and rate of addition during synthesis would favor a more dense crystal product .
Maybe the addition of a solvent to the reaction mixture , or even a coprecipitated product with AP would have a higher density .
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Matsumoto_Hideki
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mad.gif posted on 27-1-2005 at 16:26
I want to give the film can test a try before you nail the coffin


I will try the film can test again, this time with my filtered stuff and see if it doesn't punch a hole in 1/2" steel plate.

Don't give up on it, i might actaully have different stuff than you do?? Like I said I have different results.
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PainKilla
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[*] posted on 27-1-2005 at 16:37


OK, I hate snow. I am in the process of doing the first part of my experiment. 30% H2SO4 (to equal 30% HCl) was added to acetone, one sample will be held at room temperature, another will be heated exactly the way everyone is doing DPPP. Depeding on the results we can have:

DPPP is made from this method, then the DPPP is really some sort of mesitylene or its derative.

DPPP is not made, no other "special" changes. The product is DPPP or chloroacetone derative.

I will also be attempting to peroxidise chloroacetone sometime. Here is the results of the Room temp h2so4/acetone: *(ill be deleting and updating every few hours)*

+ 0 hours: A clear mixture with reddish haze to it.

+ 6 hours: A slightly yellowed but mostly clear mixture. Still smells LIGHTLY of acetone, but it has some aromatic smell to it, but faint. It is going to be kept stoppered through the experiment.

+24 Hours: Yellowish tint, undescrabable smell.

+48 Hours: I am now REALLy sick, but mixture is yellow like on hideki procedure.... and it has this undescibable smell.... MEANING that no phorone! Too bad.... no Cl garbage either. Bascailly its TeAP or mesitylene or derative peroxide.

Please post any suggestions.




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BromicAcid
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[*] posted on 27-1-2005 at 17:33


Please, can someone titrate to find the % active oxygen? Find a good density measurement, determine an accurate melting point. These should be easy things that should be known with every compound and are easy to do at home.

More advanced would be for someone to get a solid IR of DPPP and compare it to AP, maybe get a UV spec of the precursor solution. On another site Matsumoto said the key was to distill the solution although he hasn't said so here, if it does have a set boiling point it would greatly limit the amount of compounds form which to select for it's identity. This thread keeps going around in circles, all these witness plates and tests, different procedures and such, everything in the last 15 pages of this thread could probably be condensed into two pages, just fill in the blanks:

Density:
Melting Point:
% Active Oxygen:
Solubility:

IF these were found accurately it would be simple to determine if this is AP or not. Books on organic peroxides give examples on how to titrate and determine the peroxo linkages, they even give AP's values, not that you couldn't just measure them yourself. Someone out there can do this.




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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 27-1-2005 at 18:15


You betcha I can do density , solubility , and a full and complete melting point analysis , which I shall get around to in due course . It's just that all drudge work and no blowing up shit makes Jack a dull boy ....and Rosco too :D
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Matsumoto_Hideki
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 01:00
yellow colour has already been explained


Painkilla during all of our synth methods the yellow colour is coming from mesityl oxide which is normally clear but in this case the heat and light cause it to change colour. Mesityl oxide is a byproduct of phorone production from HCl on acetone, as in this case and has a camphor like-odor to it. THIS HAS BEEN EXPLAINED ! WE KNOW THIS FOR A FACT!

Doing some searching on TCAP and HMTD and found that AP (TCAP) is quoted as 5300m/s and HMTD as 4311m/s. So why were some of you telling us that HMTD was more powerful than AP? CLEARLY THIS IS WRONG! DPPP then must be AT LEAST detonating around 6-7Km/s then. AP is reported as stronger than HMTD
by Meglomania, ATF and others.

I quote:"it won't matter though and I will seem very repetitive I assure you. The DPPP may be a little stronger than AP but it is not stronger than HMTD"

[Edited on 28-1-2005 by Matsumoto_Hideki]
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 03:28


Matsumoto, VoD and brisance are not the same. Read my post before this. Imagine that you mix a fast thing, like AP, and a energetic thing, like aluminized chlorate powder, and you achieve both the energy and VoD of the pentrite. Well, the brisance of this mix wil not be the one of the pentrite, but much lower, because most of the energy comes from the redox reaction between aluminum and oxigen, wich is slow. Since I understand, the best brisance comes from the energy trapped in stressed molecules.
Just compare AP and HMTD and believe what see your eyes.


It is even possible that certain impurities can act as a binder, improving mechanical transmision of the wave, form denser material , as rosco said, or lead to a more stressed cristaline form?

[Edited on 28-1-2005 by WaveFront]
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 06:22


There are several factors which have bearing on the performance of a particular explosive , and the velocity numbers really are only one part of the equation which describes what a particular explosive will actually do under a given set of conditions . Low density is a huge problem to be overcome if any bulk strength and brisance equivalency for "DPPP" is to be demonstrated in comparison with other materials which have double the loose pouring density . Nitrostarch suffers the same problem , and the velocity number for nitrostarch under the best condition is higher than for
other materials which are far more effective at doing actual work upon the target material . The velocity number for a particular material is very much irrelevant when there are more pertinent characteristics to be considered for a particular use , like initiating ability , or cutting ability , or heaving ability , one of which characteristic is particularly good makes that material desirable for a particular use , regardless of what the velocity numbers or other measured values may be . The "work value" of what the material actually does is more significant than what any numbers would suggest it is capable of doing .

As for AP versus HMTD , it doesn't matter what the numbers are for velocity , HMTD is a much more dense material in terms of its pouring density , and its self accelleration across a short distance from point of ignition to reach high order detonation and maximum velocity is certainly greater than AP , which makes HMTD a far better initiating explosive than AP , in a size constrained scenario like a detonator capsule . Regardless of the velocity HMTD is also more brisant , probably because of its density . A more dense explosive is likely to have a higher kinetic energy charcteristic about its expanding plasma upon detonation , and it is that quantity which does the actual energy delivery to the target material , and this is a quite different quantity than the velocity figure for the progression of a detonation wave through the material itself . It's sort of like a drag race between two cars where the car winning the race has little to do with which driver can push the gas pedal to the floor the quickest . It's more a whole lot of other factors which determines what happens in the larger scheme of things .

[Edited on 28-1-2005 by Rosco Bodine]
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 09:17


Quote:
Originally posted by Matsumoto_Hideki
Painkilla during all of our synth methods the yellow colour is coming from mesityl oxide which is normally clear but in this case the heat and light cause it to change colour. Mesityl oxide is a byproduct of phorone production from HCl on acetone, as in this case and has a camphor like-odor to it. THIS HAS BEEN EXPLAINED ! WE KNOW THIS FOR A FACT!
[Edited on 28-1-2005 by Matsumoto_Hideki]


Where exactly has this been proven...I would like to see some REAL references and none of YOUR "proven" bullshit observations. As far as I see you claim that you know the by products of a obviosuly very complex process while meanwhile you do not know the difference between the brinsance and VoD. Until I see REAL references I am regarding this as new.

+ 0 hours: A clear mixture with reddish haze to it.

+ 6 hours: A slightly yellowed but mostly clear mixture. Still smells LIGHTLY of acetone, but it has some aromatic smell to it, but faint. It is going to be kept stoppered through the experiment.

+24 Hours: Yellowish tint, undescrabable smell.

+48 Hours: I am now REALLy sick, but mixture is yellow like on hideki procedure.... and it has this undescibable smell.... MEANING that no phorone! Too bad.... no Cl garbage either. Bascailly its TeAP or mesitylene or derative peroxide.

+72 Hours: Mixture has almost no acetone smell, undescribable aromatic. Yellow is darknening very very slightly orange, but still a deep deep yellow. The mixture is also more viscous than it was originally.




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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 09:52


At what temp is this, Painkilla? If it's room temp, be prepared to wait for anohter couple of weeks.
Add some water, and see if you get someinsoluble oil - which should be mesitylene/mesityl oxide. A yellow precipitate, when neutralised, means phorone.
Did you add h2O2 yet?

Bromic, you are right, the peroxide titration can be done. Will look into the references and post this. This should determine how much peroxide there is per gram of AP, HMTD or 'DPPP'.




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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 10:05
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT


This is room temperature, in a sealed flask. I will wait 7 days and see what happens. Depending how fast I fnish this essay for school, I may also heat a sample.

I do believe that Methyl Isobutenyl Ketone PEROXIDE is what we are getting here. I finished one of the essays i needed to do and ehated the mixture same way, everything the same but with sulfuric.... well I got the same results. I have yet to peroxidse the product but I think it is important to realize that it is H+ that affects this not Cl-. This means there is no Cl intermediate and therefore unlikely that any phorone is formed.

Well at least we more or less know what this compound is.... the more important thing to know is whether it is worth making over AP or HMTD. As of now we have no REAL conclusive results besides the makeshifted lead block test. I will try and do some test though, I have no camera and will have to do a more accurate test, which will probably take more time. Still, it is a good finding....

Here is also some important notes:

  1. Almost mineral Acid can be used
  2. The acid must be able to have a good ablilty to add H+ to the acetone
  3. The acid is a catalyst basically, the more you use the faster the reaction will go, you can also use little acid and a lot of acetone
  4. Heating is not neccasary but, 1/2 hour heating at 60-70degreees is equal to 1 day of letting same mixture stand at room temperature


I will do soluibity and stuff of the precursor soon. Then the peroxide.

O yea it tastes like shit, like when I get dust from cleaning my cat's litter box in my mouth... and i cant get rid of it its so fucking gross GAH!


[Edited on 28-1-2005 by PainKilla]

[Edited on 28-1-2005 by PainKilla]




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Matsumoto_Hideki
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shocked.gif posted on 28-1-2005 at 15:49
NEw results


I don't know what this is but I have made something different that is dark green !

150ml of actone were heated with 60ml of HCl @ 31.5%vol

the solution did not change colour until the rest of the 190ml were added, then the solution turned from clear to red then to black-green. any thoughts without flaming. :o

[Edited on 29-1-2005 by Matsumoto_Hideki]
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 15:54


I don't think that it matters what color it is. It's just the darkening of the mesityl oxide.

[Edited on 29-1-2005 by PainKilla]




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Matsumoto_Hideki
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 16:07
what quote?


Mesitylene and Mesityl oxide according that chemsynth site form around phoron, especially during the HCl on acetone reaction.
I beleive this is correct.

Can you prove there is no phorne being produced?


Oh, I think I have a new reaction due to a different colour being produced. It might be signifigant? it might not? don't blow it off.:mad:

[Edited on 29-1-2005 by Matsumoto_Hideki]
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 16:11


I am quite puzzled right now, I neutralized one of my mesitylene oxide, and it lost all of its color and turn clear, I got no precipate besides nahso4. How interesting..... nonetheless, because of this i think there is no phorone. I will try freezing this solution.



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Matsumoto_Hideki
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 16:23
?What did you use to nutralize it with?


What did you nutralize your liquid with?

I am at a loss as to what is happening here.
Some of you are contradicting yourselves with that Dov and overall explosive energy. Why is 9km/sec going to melt through a .75in steel plate, but when AP and HMTD are compaired AP has a higher Dov yet it does less damage, so maybe if this peroxide we are forming is indeed lower energy than HMTD but detonates faster and we have missed this point?

BTW *** How do you explain the micro sized brass dust left from a .233 shell tamped with DPPP vs large twisted metal fragments with TCAP @ 1.6g
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 16:31


I used NaHCO3 to neutralize. Regarding your probelm understanding the pwoer....


Brisance is basically how fast an explsoive can gather and realase its under at the max pressure. Or the shattereing effct. It's sort of liek this:

Imagine a propane tank filled with explsoive A and B. Explosive A can build up it pressure really fast and the sudden change in pressure literally shatters apart the metal. This would be like HMTD. Explosive B however, has a low brisance but has a larger VoD. It will basically force the metal to rip apart because of all the pressure thats in there. This is like AP.

Now (dont argue with AP/hmtd just making an example ), while HMTD has a lower VoD, its able to pack more power in its punch I guess. AP final speed is faster, but it releases its enegery slower.

You can almost imagine it as the strong one hit knockout fighter comapred to the weak but really fast fighter.

In other words, it's more dependant on how fast you can release you energy (brisance) than what the maximum speed is.

The thing Im most curios about is its sensitivty.


Quote:

BTW *** How do you explain the micro sized brass dust left from a .233 shell tamped with DPPP vs large twisted metal fragments with TCAP @ 1.6g


AP built up so much pressure it ripped the shell apart like a pressure device. The DPPP relased its enrgy so fast that metal basically shattered itself into little bits of dust, which was helped by the extra output of energy.

[Edited on 29-1-2005 by PainKilla]




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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 17:41


I get the same result(green-black) when making mesitylene. It is initially the dark red, but on additional standing I get the green. I have a batch that is currently like this. It's easy to see the color when sloshing on the sides of the beaker or pulling the thermometer out. It goes from a dark red layer, to a dark green layer, to a tarish material on top. I don't know what it means either. I assume some polymersation, or something evaporating. Without some very expensive equiptment I don't think we will know for sure.

I am not confirming nor denying the DPPP. I have reason to think it isn't, but I have seen to definate proof in either direction. I think it has been pretty well established that it is acid catalysed, not just HCl. Just making mesitylene will prove this. The colors are exactly the same.

I brought up the topic of a more dilute acid to Pain Killa. That is the only true way to determine if it is acid catalysed or a specific acid is neccesary. 30% Sulfuric acid happens to have the same Normality as HCl. It appears that it is indeed acid catalysed. Since you seem to have the proceedure down very well perhaps you would want to try this and see what results you obtain.
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 18:28


Quote:
Originally posted by Matsumoto_Hideki
Some of you are contradicting yourselves with that Dov and overall explosive energy. Why is 9km/sec going to melt through a .75in steel plate, but when AP and HMTD are compaired AP has a higher Dov yet it does less damage, so maybe if this peroxide we are forming is indeed lower energy than HMTD but detonates faster and we have missed this point?
Just for a hypothetical example , suppose we had some ultra high velocity explosive Xenon No-such Pentaperoxide which had a detonation velocity of 30 Km/sec and a density of .01 grams per cubic cm because of the aerogel like crystal lattice structure . How would you suppose the "power" of the hypothetical explosive would compare with PETN ?
Thinking two dimensionally , you would undoubtedly proclaim that the Xenon No-such Pentaperoxide is by far the more powerful explosive since it has more than three times the detonation velocity than PETN ......and you would be absolutely incorrect , because you are not taking into account the other factors besides velocity which apply to determining which material is "more powerful" .
Quote:

BTW *** How do you explain the micro sized brass dust left from a .233 shell tamped with DPPP vs large twisted metal fragments with TCAP @ 1.6g

That is a weight range where the differing plates could be produced by separate firings of the same material , one goes high order and the other doesn't quite get there . Many tests and ignition schemes to rule out this variable would be required for establishing the facts .
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Matsumoto_Hideki
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 18:55
I understood this point.


Yes but why did you claim that if DPPP detonates at 9km/sec it would drill a hole in .75" steel.? This when you started to confuse me. none the less I still don't undertsand why when I use exactly 1.6g of AP vs DPPP in a .223 rifle shell I get two totally different detonations with totally different energy signatures. the size of the fragmements = power or velocity? Brass penetrating steel pate is idicitive of? as this is what happend in both plate tests.

What about adding Acetone to boiling HCl or the reverse? would this affect the material produced?

[Edited on 29-1-2005 by Matsumoto_Hideki]
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 19:08


Here's what I think about it. Velocity of detonation is not the only thing that effects power, however it is a factor. A high VoD will create a higher brisance, all other factors being equal. However, in the case of AP vs. HMTD, HMTD has a much better OB, hence a higher energy content, as well as a higher density. These allow it to be more brisant than AP.

In this case, although perhaps the DPPP does have a very high VoD, the total energy release would be fairly low as the OB is very poor compared to most other explosives. The low density will also effect the results. Hence something like RDX will be much more powerful due to the higher density as well as the much greater energy content.
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 19:12


Matsumoto :

If you understood the point you wouldn't keep saying the same thing and getting the same reply , the legitimacy of which you refuse to accept . You could repeat the test a dozen times , and get one pair of plates showing just the opposite result , or six showing AP and six showing DPPP with better plates . You cannot make accurate conclusions with the variables involved from a single plate test . I don't know what your obsession is about with DPPP , but it definitely impairs your objectivity . This weekend I am going to do the residual peroxide test which will probably show that DPPP is not even actually DPPP , so then what ? Where is the discussion going next if DPPP turns out not to even be DPPP at all ?

[Edited on 29-1-2005 by Rosco Bodine]
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Rosco Bodine
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 22:52


Okay I never said phorone was a necessary precursor for the formation of a phorone derivative , so what are you going on about ? I have even said flat out several times that I didn't see phorone even being involved in the reactions which may form DPPP , if indeed any DPPP is the actual product . I think we are going to discover that DPPP is not the product , but something else , not necessarily AP , nor DPPP either , but possibly another entirely different organic peroxide , and its detonation rate won't be any 9 Km/sec either , but more like 5.5 to 6 Km/sec .
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biggrin.gif posted on 29-1-2005 at 00:04
Phorone made


alrighty something strange is going on here, I just did another synth this time Hot 35%HCl to Acetone
550ml HCl to 450ml acetone and an instant reaction took place. Drops of green-yellow phorne started to condense on the upper lid of the pressure canning jar. (all glass) These hardend later into needlike yellow crystals. Phorone if I have ever seen it. Photos will be along shortly.
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