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tom haggen
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Registered: 29-11-2003
Location: PNW
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Mood: a better mood
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Oh ya magpie, I actually hate concentrating my own H2SO4, releasing large amounts of sulfur oxides into the atmosphere is not my idea of a good time.
If I didn't care about being anonymous I would definitely order chemicals off of the internet.
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hodges
National Hazard
Posts: 525
Registered: 17-12-2003
Location: Midwest
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I order chemicals online all the time (USA). I'm not doing anything illegal, and if someone is watching what I order I doubt my orders for 2oz
of Mg or 4oz of Fe2O3 or even things like 70% HNO3 and KI are going to look that suspicious. Certainly not enough quantities to make much of a bomb
out of - there would be far easier alternatives I'm sure. The closest thing I have to anything organic is denatured ethyl alcohol and sodium
acetate, so if someone thinks I might be making drugs then they must not know too much.
Living in an apartment, I'm far more corncened what my neighbors might think vs. what authorities might think. I know that I have never had a
serious accident and that my chemicals are not likely to pose even as much of a hazard as (say) a gas grill that I see people storing on their patios.
I know that, but if I were to get a package labeled "DANGER - EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS" my neighbors might (rightfully) feel a bit of concern.
Fortunately, almost every chemical I have ordered has been delivered in "plain" packaging. I get a ton of science and electronics stuff
through the mail, and those packages tend to be well labeled, so hopefully that is everyone's first guess as to what the other packages contain.
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S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
Posts: 2419
Registered: 7-5-2004
Location: Cornworld, Central USA
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Risky? Chemistry? Good! Killing or maiming themselves is a good way get those who don't belong in this field out of it before they can do more
harm. Some people cannot accept the fact that they don't plan well enough to do chemistry. These words are not directed at the picture poster,
shit happens to everyone.
Accidents happen. So when handling things like sulfuric acid, you have to be more careful. After doing this chemistry thing for a while, and have
various bad experiences, you learn from your errors. You see some accidents as errors, because many of them are preventable to a degree. At least the
ones I've had.
But I'm not so careful either, using the battery acid and pyrex "not for stovetop or broiler use" to 500F in the oven. I can't
imagine doing this on the stovetop in visionware, the fuming in air is horrible if the oven door is opened while the acid is hot. But I do take
precautions, the bowl is in a deep, heavy cast-iron skillet. The heat is raised very gradually. No problems, yet.
Advice for what its worth for those in the US:
Some chemicals are better bought than made, and auctions, well...Red P is very much a controlled substance, yet people sell and buy it on ebay. There
was just listed a very freaky auction, a grab bag of some very freaky chems. And I doubt that there will be any problems, except the cost of shipping.
BTW, on that huge Gallade order, exactly how much is the shipping on that item? So, people are buying these. Email them in a couple months, and see
what they say, if they respond, if you really want to know.
Buy all the chemicals you can, using your credit card, while you can. Because the buying situation is not going to improve, in person or online. Shop
around, prices are incredibly variable. Better yet, start your own chemical business, selling to individuals.
Just look at all the crap they put in slx and sunnyside alcohol, for profit or otherwise. Almost chemically useless. The other OTC chems are next, and
many have been taken off the shelves in some states already. I do not care if people use, make, or sell meth, but I am very pissed at the cooks and
the media for the chemical controls. P cpds. are so organically useful. I guess if it wasn't for the meth hysteria, we'd have the
environmental hysteria that the EU does.
If no one buys from the retail sellers due to paranoia, they won't have enough incentive to continue selling to individuals. They will not have
any incentive to fight proposed legislation. Then what? Will we be pissing on wood ash/mulch piles for KNO3 like in the old days?
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BromicAcid
International Hazard
Posts: 3227
Registered: 13-7-2003
Location: Wisconsin
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Mood: Rock n' Roll
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I buy my H2SO4 from the hardware store for cleaning drains, it says industrial strength right on the bottle and says not for sale to individuals but
I've never had a problem purchasing it. 1 L bottles, $16, on the back it says, guaranteed 99% H2SO4, works very well.
But I used to boil down my own acid, I would boil it down in of all things, a metal pan. Those ones with the really thin layer of ceramic on them.
It worked fine several times but on one attempt a piece of it must have flaked off because the acid looked like it was boiling all the sudden really
localized and it went straight though the pan and into my cheap heating element, took that sucker out quick but one odd thing, I had
a portion of this boiled down acid sitting around all winter and it was nearly clear when I put it away, come summer it was still clear but a large
amount of yellow precipitate was on the bottom of the container, looked like sulfur but I didn't test it.
However I do buy many of my chemicals, but there is a hazmat fee on any high concentration >45% that I've seen. Strange considering I've
bout benzene by the liter with no hazmat. Must be just corrosives and explosives that require hazmat.
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tom haggen
Hazard to Others
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Registered: 29-11-2003
Location: PNW
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Mood: a better mood
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Ya the only thing is that drain cleaner crap is contaminated with some type of dye. I noticed some strange variations between 2 different jugs of
sulfuric acid I bought. They were both clear at 33%, but when I concentrated one it would turn a much darker yellow color while the other would stay
almost clear when concentrated. Both were from NAPA I don't really understand it.
[Edited on 10-6-2004 by tom haggen]
[Edited on 10-6-2004 by tom haggen]
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Saerynide
National Hazard
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Location: The Void
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The one that turns dark yellow/brown has trace amounts of contaminants in it. I posted links in this thread which mentions this.
All the H2SO4 Ive made looks like that when it gets more concentrated too.
Someone suggested that the acid be passed through carbon filters if i remember correctly.
[Edit]: I havent tried the carbon filter thing yet though.
[Edited on 10-6-2004 by Saerynide]
"Microsoft reserves the right at all times to monitor communications on the Service and disclose any information Microsoft deems necessary to...
satisfy any applicable law, regulation or legal process"
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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OTC's becoming rare?
I have read S. C. Wack's post and agree on many points. I too feel that the OTC's will likely become less available and/or more crapped up
with useless additives.
I'm stocking up agressively now on reagent chemicals and generic glassware. I'm buying basic reagents like oxalic acid, methanol, sodium
hydroxide, etc. Just today I searched on the internet for lye and couldn't find a supply! Many soapmakers on the internet said they
couldn't find it anymore due to all the meth making in their area. I was so concerned I went right out to see if I could find some. Much to my
pleasant surprise I found Red Devil lye in two different chain grocery stores. I bought a 1lb container.
I found a good supply of Drygas methanol at a chain drugstore and bought 2 bottles. The Heet methanol is being phased over to IsoHeet isopropyl
alcohol.
I have already mentioned that I no longer see toluene in Home Depot or Lowe's. I think this may be another casualty of the drug war. They have
apparently substituted xylene.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Mendeleev
Hazard to Others
Posts: 237
Registered: 25-12-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: stoned
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Yea, the DEA sucks ass. I don't see toluene at Home Depot or Lowes anymore, but Ace Hardware still has it. Heet gas line antifreeze methanol is
found everywhere even wal mart, and red devil pure lye is also found at any grocery store, hardware store, and Wal-Mart. I have not seen any evidence
to indicate them dissapearing, but knowing the DEA they just might. I've attached a pdf file about the DEA's actions, which shows just what
dicks they are. I don't think they will be able to take away sulfuric acid though, it is the most produced chemical in the United States, and at
the very least it will be found in batteries.
All the hardware stores I've been to also sell concentrated sulfuric acid, but it is dyed black, and when attempting to distinguish the layer of
nitroglycerine from the layer of mixed acids, the fact that everything is pitch black doesn't help, the same goes for TNT nitration. I generally
use the hardware store acid for distilling nitric because the black crap does not distill over, but if the acid is actually physically present in the
reaction mixture, I boil down the clear battery acid. I bought more sulfuric acid at NAPA today, this time I told the lady I wanted the 5 gallon
container and it was all good. She showed me all three sized that you mentioned tom haggen, and I got my pick, thanks  .
As I mentioned before I am considering ordering that 200 L drum of sulfuric acid for around $115 from Gallade Chemical. Now I wouldn't be
concerned about ordering even red phosphorus or hydroiodic acid in 4 oz quantities but 200 L of sulfuric acid means I am up to something, and the
truth is, its just the most useful chemical in the lab and having 200 L of it makes me feel comfortable. It's used to produce any acid from its
salt, catalyze nitrations through water removal, purify iodine, make phosphorus, its just extremely usefull. I am almost positive if I order such a
large drum I will get either a call or a personal visit from the DEA, and I will tell them that it is my personal business and they can kiss my ass.
Luckily this country has not become Nazi yet and a purchase is not enough to justify a search warrant. The web site I want to order the drum from is
http://www.galladechem.com/ . I am almost sure they sell to individuals because in their line of questions they ask you in the check out order
form, they ask what you what will you be using the chemical for and one of the answer options is household, and also they ask if the delivery will be
to a residential or business address.
[Edited on 10-6-2004 by Mendeleev]
[Edited on 10-6-2004 by Mendeleev]
Attachment: dea.pdf (85kB)
This file has been downloaded 764 times
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon. . .
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Cyrus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 397
Registered: 24-4-2004
Location: Ancient Persia
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Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BromicAcid
I buy my H2SO4 from the hardware store for cleaning drains, it says industrial strength right on the bottle and says not for sale to individuals but
I've never had a problem purchasing it. 1 L bottles, $16, on the back it says, guaranteed 99% H2SO4, works very well.
hazmat. |
Ouch!! Home Depot had a discount on sulfuric acid when I got my acid, so I got mine for about $2 a L! No dyes at all that I can see, however, I dropped a piece of the paper inner liner in there by accident when trying
to remove it, so now one of the bottles of acid is all brown
[Edited on 10-6-2004 by Cyrus]
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Mendeleev
Hazard to Others
Posts: 237
Registered: 25-12-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: stoned
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It's clear?! What brand is it?
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon. . .
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Quantum
Hazard to Others
Posts: 300
Registered: 2-12-2003
Location: Nowhereville
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Mood: Interested
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Please...Please tell us the brand
What if, what is isn\'t true?
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Cyrus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 397
Registered: 24-4-2004
Location: Ancient Persia
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The label says;
instant
POWER GUARANTEED (to the right a picture of an orange sun, to the left a picture of a p-trap (plumbing))
PRO lIQUID
DRAIN OPENER (in large slanted bright orange letters)
below this,
DANGER POISON (to the right a skull and
crossbones, and a test
tube pouring acid on
someone's hand )
below this,
(to the left) Concentrated
Sulfuric Acid
(on the right) CAUSES SEVERE IMMEDIATE BURNS: hmm, duh, its H2SO4
MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED no, really, I can't use it as an antacid?
KEEP OUT OF CHILDREN'S REACH (mine is stored at ground level)
below this, on the left,
CONTENTS 1LITER
( 33.8 Fl. OZ. US)
to the right
Before use, read all directions, cautions & first aid on the label.
sorry I can't get a digital pic.
On the back, among many stupid things such as "if you squeeze this bottle hard while it is open, acid may come out the top" (not a direct
quote) it says,
Distributed by
SCOTCH CORPORATION
P.O. BOX 4466
DALLAS, TX 75208
214-9434605
5/02 - yes I got this a while ago.
Contains:
93% Sulfuric Acid
CAS# 7664-93-9
If this is not enough information, I can give more, but the bright orange lettering is pretty distictive- I should note that it had a faint yellow
color last time I checked, but that could be because of my contaminations, nothing like the blackish purple crap in the other bottles!
EDIT-sorry guys I said earlier that the acid was all brown, it is just very slightly yellow. Must have been my evil clone...
[Edited on 12-6-2004 by Cyrus]
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S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
Posts: 2419
Registered: 7-5-2004
Location: Cornworld, Central USA
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Mood: Enhanced
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Yeah, thats the crap. Note the smell of anything you make with it. Note the way the inside of the container has been turned black. Not good enough for
certain uses.
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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drain cleaner comparison
I surveyed the stores in my area for sulfuric acid drain cleaners today and found three: Lightning, MCC, and Roebic. I haven't tried them so
can't say which are any good. But based on the label the Lightning is probably no good as it has "twelve buffers." How in the fuck do
you buffer sulfuric acid?
I checked Lightning's website and found an interesting comparison chart for drain cleaners:
http://www.liquidlightning.net/ll/Compare.html
Based on this chart the good ones look like Ramout and Instant Power. But according to above posts Instant Power may not be good for all applications.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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S.C. Wack says
| Quote: |
Yeah, thats the crap. Note the smell of anything you make with it. Note the way the inside of the container has been turned black. Not good enough for
certain uses.
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That could very well be carbon particles from the deterioration of the inside of the container. I don't know of any cheap plastics that can
stand up to sulfuric acid for any length of time, especially if it gets too hot.
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Mendeleev
Hazard to Others
Posts: 237
Registered: 25-12-2003
Location: USA
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Yea, the infamous instant power. I have the lightning stuff as well as roebic, san-teen, and liquid fire, and all are black. I can't believe my
home depot doesn't have the instant power stuff, what state do you live in Cyrus?
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon. . .
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Cyrus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 397
Registered: 24-4-2004
Location: Ancient Persia
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Mood: No Mood
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Well now, that's a pretty big assumption!
Who says I live in a state of the United States at all?
Actually, I am the famous Cyrus from ancient Persia, yes, thats right, the very one who diverted the course of the Tigris, well, its been several
thousand years, so I can't remember if it was the Tigris or the Euphrates, but then I sacked Babylon!
So currently I am living in a mansion deep in the hidden recesses of Persia, (with broadband internet access from Persia On Line), but I visit
Washington a lot.
That's where the acid was purchased.
sc wack, I didn't say the acid was perfect. All I said, basically, is that this brand is better than the purple crap.
If you want to do some delicate reactions, buy your acid from Flinn, Frey, etc. if you want to do general stuff- ie dissolve the metal off of a light
bulb/make boric trimethylether/dehydrate things/react with bases/etc...
This stuff is fine.
It never makes black stuff- presumably carbon, unless it is heated a lot, and even then, the reaction went fine. And I don't even know if the
black stuff was the acid's fault.
[Edited on 13-6-2004 by Cyrus]
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Mendeleev
Hazard to Others
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Location: USA
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Mood: stoned
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They let you carry acid on a plane?
[Edited on 13-6-2004 by Mendeleev]
Trogdor was a man. A dragon man. Or maybe just a dragon. . .
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Cyrus
Hazard to Others
Posts: 397
Registered: 24-4-2004
Location: Ancient Persia
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Mood: No Mood
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All I'll say is; "it is good to be the king."
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: USA
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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finding a good H2SO4 drain cleaner
The sulfuric acid drain cleaners I find in the hardware stores seem to be loaded with bullshit additives to make them "safe." However, the
chart link I posted earlier listed a promising candidate, i.e., Clobber by Hercules. A plumbing supplier carries it but will not sell it to anyone
but plumbers. I might be able to work around this. Does anyone have any experience with Clobber?
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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Polverone
Now celebrating 21 years of madness
Posts: 3186
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Location: The Sunny Pacific Northwest
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Since you are in the USA
I will recommend "ROOTO" brand sulfuric acid drain opener, if you can find it. The acid is strong and has just a light yellow color to it.
There's nothing but H2SO4 and some small percentage of water present.
PGP Key and corresponding e-mail address
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newby
Harmless
Posts: 4
Registered: 23-6-2004
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Battery Acid
Hi, Just came accross this thread, so thought I would add my experience of this somewhat theoretical idea. First I got some battery acid as far as I
am aware it is around 35% concentration, I then set up for simple distillation and distilled around two thirds of water from the solution, checking
and emptying the collection flask periodically until what was coming over began to undicate acid to litmus paper. The temperature of the hotplate was
kept around 150c, Next I did a rough calculation of the density and assumed a density of 1586, that is 1586 grams per litre. Knowing concentrated
H2S04 to be 1850 grams per litre, I was some way off of my target. The next problem was my hotplate, with a max temp for liquids of 250c this would
not do, I needed to get the temp up to at least 290c but keep it below 340c less my acid began to break up. I decided to use a heating mantle with a
max temp of 450c. The acid was boiled in this and I used several condensers one on top of each other as a sort of glass exhaust to vent the noxious
fumes, I began boiling with a thermometer in the solution, however some of the fumes began to drift down around the flask so I kept my distance, I did
to runs boiling the contents until dense white smoke began to issue from my makeshift exhaust and then kept it going for about 10 minutes. Cracking
was heard from the flask and I assumed this to be water molecules being forced out of solution by the heat. After letting the solution cool, I
wondered if I had breached the upper temperature limit of 340c as I had not checked the thermometer temp due to the fumes. The resulting solution
indicated strong acid to litmus paper, practically dissolving my strip of litmus, but the acid was not clear, it had turned to a golden colour not
unlike brake fluid maybe slightly darker, possibly I had breached it's upper temp limit, it should be clear, or possibly there is something else
in there that has caused discolouration. Theoretically I think lesser concentrations could be concentrated by this method but a good heating mantle
with a thermostat or boiling the acid in a bath of oil of a known boiling point temp which does not exceed around 300c would be needed. I hav'nt
worked out the sp of this golden acid so I cant tell you what it's concentration is but working back from how much water has been removed it must
be almost there. If anyone out there is thinking of trying this, do so with extreme caution, first and foremost on my mind was safety, I also used
quality labglass, lab stands and hotplates.
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newby
Harmless
Posts: 4
Registered: 23-6-2004
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Re Battery Acid
It seems you can clean this acid if coloured with contaminants by using the easily available Hydrogen Peroxide
Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is effective in removing colour from Sulphuric acid and the rate at which hydrogen peroxide clears up the acid varies with
the acid temperature, the quantity of SO2 dissolved in the acid and the strength of H2O2.
Bench scale test should be performed to determine the amount of hydrogen peroxide to be added, the temperature and residence required to produce a
product acid of acceptable quality
For a small sample I would think we are talking in the few drops range at a temperature of 80c, If anyone has tried this I would be interested in how
it turned out 
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Reverend Necroticus Rex
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Location: Right behind you.......
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Adding hydrogen peroxide would produce caro's acid aka peroxymonosulfuric acid, which is unstable I think, and certainly quite mean (I speak from
personal experience here) Caro's acid is known as piranha bath, for obvious reasons, as it is one hell of a strong acid.
The sun is shining on a brand new day
Blackened corpses burn where they were slain
Self-flagellation prompts him to confess, Bless me father, for I made this mess.
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newby
Harmless
Posts: 4
Registered: 23-6-2004
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The h202 used is a 50% solution, it is not a concentrated solution being added to S03, your starting with H2S04, The amount used to clean discoloured
sulphuric acid for a given quantity is whatever is found in bench testing or roughly 1.5kg h202 to the ton H2S04, so I am assuming a small sample
would require dropwise amounts. I understand this to be the process used in industry if they, for whatever reason end up with a batch of discoloured
concentrated sulphuric acid, trying to lighten this by diluting with large amounts of pure clean acid is'nt very effective. I assume this
process of cleaning discoloured acid works by bleaching the contaminants while having no reaction with the H2S04 which is relatively stable. If
industry use this process to add 'Value' to there acid, I would think this to mean they can sell there acid for applications which require a
higher grade instead of selling it for drain cleaner or the like. I am not talking about adding h202 to free S03
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