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Author: Subject: Expensive chemicals
Takron
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For an easy chemical to make at home that is expensive as hell. The first thing that comes to mind is Ammonium MetaVanadate. You can make it in pretty large at home quantities but it can cost upwards of 80 or more dollars for a few grams. Its used for presumptive drug testing.

You convert Vanadium Pentoxide with Sodium Carbonate to Sodium MetaVanadate and then you react that with an ammonium salt to yield Ammonium MetaVanadate.

Ammonium MetaVanadate is only slightly soluble in water so it should precipitate out after cooling and volume reduction.

Nicodem
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 Quote: Originally posted by Takron The first thing that comes to mind is Ammonium MetaVanadate. You can make it in pretty large at home quantities but it can cost upwards of 80 or more dollars for a few grams.

80 or more dollars for a few grams? Somebody is fooling you. Si*ma sells ammonium metavanadate (99% certified purity) for 229 EUR/kg. Some Chinese company sells it in the range of 40 to 90 $/kg. The bulk price in China is 8$/kg or less. This is an inexpensive chemical. Do you think you can compete against the Chinese?
White Yeti
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@Nicodem

What about the synthesis of copper aspirinate?

Large suppliers do not carry this compound and the precursors are quite cheap.
This would only work if this compound was not approved by the FDA, though.

"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
ScienceSquirrel
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 Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti @Nicodem What about the synthesis of copper aspirinate? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0hxp_1w0MQ Large suppliers do not carry this compound and the precursors are quite cheap. This would only work if this compound was not approved by the FDA, though.

But who would want it and what for?
White Yeti
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Quote: Originally posted by ScienceSquirrel
 Quote: Originally posted by White Yeti @Nicodem What about the synthesis of copper aspirinate? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0hxp_1w0MQ Large suppliers do not carry this compound and the precursors are quite cheap. This would only work if this compound was not approved by the FDA, though.

But who would want it and what for?

According to wikipedia, this compound is used to relieve pain in arthritis patients. Whether this drug is approved by the FDA is beyond me.

"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
ScienceSquirrel
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What you want to do is make something that requires the minimum of regulation.
This is why novel ligands or intermediates are so attractive.
All you need is some analytical data and you are away. You are selling to research labs so caveat emptor.
I make and sell beer and I have Customs & Excise and Environmental Health to deal with.
bbartlog
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 Quote: this compound is used to relieve pain in arthritis patients. Whether this drug is approved by the FDA is beyond me.

Seems like a bad idea, and FDA approval is very unlikely. If you take enough to get a conventional dose of the acetylsalicylic part, you get too much copper. One mmol of Cu(II) aspirinate (is that even a word?), which would give you only 360mg equivalent of aspirin (not a full adult dose) would already give you 63mg of copper, which is five times the daily intake limit recommended by the WHO.
Of course the dose may be less, but then it would seem that just supplementing with some other copper salt, like the 10mg doses of copper acetate mentioned in the Wikipedia reference link, would be simpler.
IrC
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Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog
 Quote: this compound is used to relieve pain in arthritis patients. Whether this drug is approved by the FDA is beyond me.

Seems like a bad idea, and FDA approval is very unlikely. If you take enough to get a conventional dose of the acetylsalicylic part, you get too much copper. One mmol of Cu(II) aspirinate (is that even a word?), which would give you only 360mg equivalent of aspirin (not a full adult dose) would already give you 63mg of copper, which is five times the daily intake limit recommended by the WHO.
Of course the dose may be less, but then it would seem that just supplementing with some other copper salt, like the 10mg doses of copper acetate mentioned in the Wikipedia reference link, would be simpler.

I am not so sure you are looking at the problem properly. Sounds like you are saying the usefulness as a medicine of this chemical is based merely upon the aspirin related effect and comparing it's effectiveness and dosage in terms of equal amounts of ordinary aspirin (mere inflammation reduction and pain relief alone). If so why would you not just take cheap aspirin and do without the copper poisoning entirely. I believe it's use is more related to the metabolism of Purines and the subsequent levels of Uric acid in the blood and the amount crystallizing in the joints. As we know this locks the joints as well as acting like sandpaper damaging the joints as you move, as well as the related inflammation problems. As in the use of Gold shots, could not this chemical be causing a more subtle effect in Uric acid levels requiring less dosage for effectiveness. In effect you are treating the disease not the symptoms alone as in the case with Aspirin dosage.

Notwithstanding Aspirin's reduction of inflammation effects which would be 'treating the problem' as opposed to mere pain relief, the reduction of Uric acid levels or possibly the elimination as opposed to crystallization would itself reduce pain by the reduction of the disease process itself.

Or am I grasping at straws here? Possibly I am it may be more related to a reduction in the body's seeing it's own tissues as enemies, but I think my previous line of thinking is closer to the truth.

[Edited on 11-26-2011 by IrC]

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
Takron
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 Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem Do you think you can compete against the Chinese?

Who the hell said I was competing against the Chinese? He was asking for chemicals that were costly that can be made cheaper at home, not how one of us could start competing against the Chinese. He's not going to be buying it in bulk and it is still a costly chemical compared to a lot of others. Plus it is in fact a lot cheaper to make it at home than to buy it unless you are buying tons, which he is not going to be doing just for home chemistry.

White Yeti
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Quote: Originally posted by Takron
 Quote: Originally posted by Nicodem Do you think you can compete against the Chinese?

Who the hell said I was competing against the Chinese? He was asking for chemicals that were costly that can be made cheaper at home, not how one of us could start competing against the Chinese. He's not going to be buying it in bulk and it is still a costly chemical compared to a lot of others. Plus it is in fact a lot cheaper to make it at home than to buy it unless you are buying tons, which he is not going to be doing just for home chemistry.

Even though this is an unfortunate fact, I agree with Nicodem. If I ever decide to make chemicals for the sole purpose of making a profit, I would have to compete with China. This is probably why no one makes chemicals at home to sell. If I make speciality chemicals, then perhaps, I wouldn't have to compete with the Chinese. Then again the problem with sociality chemicals is that they have few buyers.

"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
ScienceSquirrel
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There are people like me making money out of craft brewing beer, cider, traditional and country wines.
Making a good brew is a challenge and a test of your chemical knowledge and skills plus you have to operate on a large scale. My new plant that is going in early next year will make 100 litres in a run.
You have all the book keeping, regulation stuff to cope with and you have to sell the product.
You do not have to compete with the Chinese!
It keeps me busy at weekends and it is almost turning in to useful second income.
phlogiston
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If you pick only one or just a few specific chemicals, you run the risk that the market for these compounds will be small.

Rather, you could offer a custom synthesis service and cater to the needs of many customers. The price/profit margin can be high. I myself sometimes buy very special chemicals at a very very high price when it is really critical for my research, and I suspect many labs do that. You could ask pretty much any price you like.

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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
White Yeti
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This might be a long-shot, but how about extracting ursolic acid from apples? I have a yard full of apple trees and most of those apples are not fit for consumption. Every year, hundreds of kilos of apples go to waste because they are not aesthetically pleasing and not palatable either, but they surely contain the same chemicals as ordinary apples.

The problem though, is how could I extract this speciality chemical from hundreds of kilos of apples? Should I make apple juice and dry out the juice to get a dry powder to work with? Even then, what solvents should I use to extract this substance?

"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
turd
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Be realistic and make cider / cidre. If you can't sell it, at least you'll have something to enjoy for yourself.

To get rich quickly invent some pyramid or pump and dump scheme.
White Yeti
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 Quote: Originally posted by turd Be realistic and make cider / cidre. If you can't sell it, at least you'll have something to enjoy for yourself. To get rich quickly invent some pyramid or pump and dump scheme.

When I say unfit for consumption, I mean it. I don't even know if I can make good cider with those apples. Granted, the apples needed to make cider do not have to be perfect; but when the apples in my yard are ripe, they are smaller than the size of irregular tennis balls, with places that are rotten and some places infested with fungi and bugs. If I had to pick out only the best apples of the bunch, I would end up with enough to make five gallons of cider. Realistic but not profitable.

If you're wondering why these apples are as they are, my yard used to be an apple orchard ~60 years ago, so the apple trees are very old. In fact, every year, there's at least one apple tree that falls because of some kind of weather event. This year, we got more than one because of both hurricane Irene and the Halloween snow.

"Ja, Kalzium, das ist alles!" -Otto Loewi
AJKOER

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OK, so if you verify there is a market for a compound in small quantities, and you know of a large scale and high quality producer, just buy in bulk and re-package. You will need a storage area, safety equipment, bottles, your labels and may even decide to hire help. Be careful to factor in the time value of money invested in your average inventory position, as well a fair value for your labor, in your product pricing.

Your standard Pharmacy is probably using this business model to some extent.

A market that comes to mind is Iodine pills, a popular item on ebay in small quantities where price is more important than brand name.

[Edited on 24-2-2012 by AJKOER]
ScienceSquirrel
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24-2-2012 at 06:20
GreenD
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You can make novel chemicals and sell them for whatever you like.

Many of the larger organic molecules on sig-al that sell for >100$for a few mg are that price because it wouldn't make sense for them to synthesize them, sell them to the 5 people who actually want them, for a price that is closer to the average. If you isolated many different natural compounds in good purity (you'll probably need an NMR to tell exactly what you have) - then you could easily sell mg quantities for a good profit. Neil International Hazard Posts: 556 Registered: 19-3-2008 Member Is Offline Mood: No Mood  Quote: Originally posted by AJKOER OK, so if you verify there is a market for a compound in small quantities, and you know of a large scale and high quality producer, just buy in bulk and re-package. You will need a storage area, safety equipment, bottles, your labels and may even decide to hire help. Be careful to factor in the time value of money invested in your average inventory position, as well a fair value for your labor, in your product pricing. [Edited on 24-2-2012 by AJKOER] A 60lb bag of CaCl costs 36.00$ from a hardware store for me. A 250g bag of Damp rid from my local sailing supply shop costs 16.00$. GreenD International Hazard Posts: 615 Registered: 30-3-2011 Member Is Offline Mood: Totally f***ing high, man!  Quote: Originally posted by Neil A 60lb bag of CaCl costs 36.00$ from a hardware store for me. A 250g bag of Damp rid from my local sailing supply shop costs 16.00\$.

dur
Neil
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Is that some sort of query? I don't speak daft troll sorry.

If you thought about it you might have realized they buy these little packs from somewhere...
GreenD
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Its a local SAILING shop - of course everything in there will be over priced. You're selling to people with sail boats lol
ScienceSquirrel
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13-3-2012 at 05:32
Pyro
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I can't not say this:
''A boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money''
make KIO3 abd KBrO3 from KClO3 and I2/Br2

all above information is intellectual property of Pyro.
feacetech
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sodium chlorite and cirtic acid

make/resell these to heath shops nuts and quakes as MMS

they charge and arm and a leg for it you could too

look at these prices

http://www.miraclemineral.co.nz/product.html

[Edited on 26-11-2012 by feacetech]
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Fundamentals » Miscellaneous » Expensive chemicals Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Responsible Practices   » Miscellaneous   » The Wiki Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Radiochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues