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plante1999
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Chemical route to Immortality
My bigest fear is the death , fallowing my understanding of this concept , with a chemist mind. Death is the end of catalists cycles in the cells,
which imediatly stop the possibility of thinking.This realy scare me.But there is chemicals that are able to extend life like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resveratrol
But is-it possible to extend more than 50% the lifespan? I will not ingest chemicals , but I will probably try on other cells like Saccharomyces
cerevisiae ....
Thanks!!!
[Edited on 19-12-2011 by plante1999]
I never asked for this.
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entropy51
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Quote: Originally posted by plante1999  | My bigest fear is the death , fallowing my understanding of this concept , with a chemist mind. Death is the end of catalists cycles in the cells,
which imediatly stop the possibility of thinking.This realy scare me.But there is chemicals that are able to extend life like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resveratrol
But is-it possible to extend more than 50% the lifespan? I will not ingest chemicals , but I will probably try on other cells like Saccharomyces
cerevisiae ....
Thanks!!! |
Science Madness is going to hell in a handbasket. Jeez.
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Endimion17
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Yes, it is possible, in vitro, on cell cultures. But we are not in vitro, and we're certainly not cell cultures.
There is an immense amount of uncertainty with extension of human life and I'd say that any attempt to declare something as a cure for greatly
extending life or even an elixir of life is actually pseudoscience which when applied to medicine yields quackery.
No one will live forever. Even if we ever manage to handle our bodies perfectly (including the brain and our consciousness it stores in the form of
charged molecules) and avoid accidents which would've kill us, the entropy of the universe is increasing. The energy is turning from a useful form
into waste heat.
Memento mori. 
If we (as our minds) will cease to exist permanently, which is very likely (though I hope it isn't), there's nothing really to worry about, as we will
be in the same state of mind before we were born. A point in the coordinate system beyond the definition of function.
As Epicurus said, when we die, we feel no pain because we no longer exist. When we exist, death does not, and when death exists, we exist no more.
It's not a quote, I'm paraphrasing.
Supposedly, his epitaph was "Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo", meaning "I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
Rarely anyone feels an instant relief reading this. It's something one has to settle with, and it takes time. Hell, it's still isn't over for me, and
I've started thinking about it long time ago.
[Edited on 19-12-2011 by Endimion17]
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phlogiston
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@entropy, there is actually lot of professional research going on to investigate aging, and what causes it.
Currently, however, immortality is out of reach still, although in some experiments indeed up to approx 50% increase was shown. But this is a lot
actually, imagine people living to become 120 _on_average_! Image what that would to do retirement funds...!
One of the best investigated 'methods' that has so far yielded results in every species investigated (suggesting it works through a highly conserved
mechanism) is called caloric restriction. Essentially, it just means eating a lot less than you normally would. Some work has shown that altering the
composition of the diet rather than dramatically limiting food intake may also be somewhat effective.
There have been spectacular results with primates that become a lot older in good health, so it is very likely that it will work in humans as well,
but obviously nobody has tried that and it is not very ethical to do so. Perhaps some individuals are crazy enough to test it on themselves, but any
results will then be anecdotal at best, and therefore nearly useless from a scientific perspective.
[Edited on 19-12-2011 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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fledarmus
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An interesting book review from a blog dedicated to exposing poor science in alternative medicine...
Life Extension: Science or Pipe Dream?
At least a start into the literature on the subject...
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston | @entropy, there is actually lot of professional research going on to investigate aging, and what causes it.
Currently, however, immortality is out of reach still, although in some experiments indeed up to approx 50% increase was shown. But this is a lot
actually, imagine people living to become 120 _on_average_! Image what that would to do retirement funds...!
One of the best investigated 'methods' that has so far yielded results in every species investigated (suggesting it works through a highly conserved
mechanism) is called caloric restriction. Essentially, it just means eating a lot less than you normally would. Some work has shown that altering the
composition of the diet rather than dramatically limiting food intake may also be somewhat effective.
There have been spectacular results with primates that become a lot older in good health, so it is very likely that it will work in humans as well,
but obviously nobody has tried that and it is not very ethical to do so. Perhaps some individuals are crazy enough to test it on themselves, but any
results will then be anecdotal at best, and therefore nearly useless from a scientific perspective.
[Edited on 19-12-2011 by phlogiston] |
It's not "a lot less". It's just eating in a way to avoid feeling full. Always "leave a little extra room" in your stomach. That's basically what it
is.
If combined with good healthcare, it could statistically improve a nation's health and life span, without producing lots of chronically sick old
people.
But people like to stuff their faces and the whole concept falls apart.
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Adas
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This is my opinion, if you don't agree, just don't read it:
I believe in God. I believe that death is just the beginning of something new and beautiful. This is my only hope - because we won't live here
forever. That's impossible. There are many people who went through NDE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience). There are many articles about it. And I know God exists and helps me, because I feel it
everyday. If I didn't feel it, I wouldn't be where I am. And my experiences with God are not just ordinary, like he helps me in my math test or so,
but I even have some "supernatural" experiences. But God's existence can't be DIRECTLY proven, because it is individual, everybody must go through it
themselves. PM me if you wanna know more.
Again, if you don't agree with this, just simply ignore this post.
Rest In Pieces!
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Mr. Wizard
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I'm theorizing out loud here. The one proven chemical route to immortality is called reproduction. Life is a chemical reaction with a history. It is a
'program' that 'runs' in a certain chemical environment, just like a computer program runs in a computer's environment. Life allows memories of
'working', that is surviving, chemical reactions to move forward. The actual living contemporary organisms can also be programmed and their 'thinking'
is analogous to a program running in a computer. Bad programs tend to be removed as non functional. Civilization and social organizations are
programming that exists among the living beings.
I've never seen this actually printed anywhere, but it just seems an obvious extension from computer programming.
When you speak of immortality, do you just mean the living DNA of your cells? I'm guessing you also mean the cognitive awareness that comes with the
programming of your life's experience, which adds another layer of difficulty to your project. Simple DNA immortality does seem to be a possibility,
as in cloning, but even then there are problems. If civilization, the program that runs among some of us, continues to operate, I think the answer to
everlasting life can and will be solved. This will only happen if civilization has enough wealth to afford the non essential explorations we
associate with scientific advancement, and the mindset to allow it. Current trends are not bullish.
In short, find a nice promising DNA partner and make lots of babies, and teach them about the world. It's hard work, but proven successful.
edit: spelling
[Edited on 19-12-2011 by Mr. Wizard]
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Wizzard
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Gravity, degeration of grown organs and structures, and mental capacity degradation are all causes of death beyond natural cell longevity  Sure, a stone on the ground can live eons. How about a structure, like the Greeks and
Romans built, made of stone?
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Bot0nist
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"What we do in life echos in eternity."
Have kids and teach them.
Leave a legacy.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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fledarmus
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Chemical route to immortality - discover, develop, and popularize a new and incredibly useful synthetic reaction.
2nd chemical route to immortality - develop a new framework for understanding and expanding our current chemical knowledge.
3rd chemical route to immortality - teach and mentor a new generation of chemists.
Make sure that the life you have now is worth living before worrying about trying to extend it.
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Bot0nist
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Very wise words fledarmus. Everybody dies. Not everybody really lives.
OK, I met my cliche quota for the day.
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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plante1999
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I prefer to be imortal without any reason for it than die and have an un-aclomplished mission... But studying chemistry is a good reason to be
imortal!
Mr. Wizard: If ''Bad programs tend to be removed as non functional'' Why not making an realy well working ''programs''...
Now back on the subject: In fact from immortality I want to said the ability of one antity (complete organism) to be unalterable to time.
I never asked for this.
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Sedit
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http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/could-age-reversal-mice-be-ap...
Just the first hit off of google to bring the topic up, there is much better resources out there for this branch of life extension. Antioxidants may
be quackery but i think there is great promise in the area of Telomeres to make man live much longer. I am impressed with the progress that is being
made since I first heard of this when I was a teen.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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Mr. Wizard
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| Quote: Originally posted by plante1999 |
I prefer to be imortal without any reason for it than die and have an un-aclomplished mission... But studying chemistry is a good reason to be
imortal!
Mr. Wizard: If ''Bad programs tend to be removed as non functional'' Why not making an realy well working ''programs''...
Now back on the subject: In fact from immortality I want to said the ability of one antity (complete organism) to be unalterable to time.
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Studying chemistry to prolong life is like studying electronics to write computer programs. Yes, life is chemicals, but the way the chemicals are
ordered is essential, just like the coding in a computer.
My comment on bad programs refers to evolution. Given enough time we could learn the secret to eternal or very long life. Many steps will eventually
get us there. I would love to see it as I approach my 'allotted span'.
Hurray for your dreams and wishes. I do not mean to splash cold water on them. All progress in this field and most others will come from scientific
knowledge.
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by Adas | This is my opinion, if you don't agree, just don't read it:
I believe in God. I believe that death is just the beginning of something new and beautiful. This is my only hope - because we won't live here
forever. That's impossible. There are many people who went through NDE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience). There are many articles about it. And I know God exists and helps me, because I feel it
everyday. If I didn't feel it, I wouldn't be where I am. And my experiences with God are not just ordinary, like he helps me in my math test or so,
but I even have some "supernatural" experiences. But God's existence can't be DIRECTLY proven, because it is individual, everybody must go through it
themselves. PM me if you wanna know more.
Again, if you don't agree with this, just simply ignore this post. |
While there's nothing in the world that could be a reason to say there isn't a god (it is impossible to prove its nonexistence or existence), "near
death experiences" are just woo woo.
A pertaining scientist can believe there's something beyond this existence (I myself hope there is, that's it), but saying that near death
experiences are any proof of it is a hammer in the head of a nail in the coffin of his credibility.
NDE is brain getting messed up while dying. Period. It's all physiology and while its proven explanation is not so old, it was thought it happens like
that for more than 50 years.
I really have no problems with anyone's beliefs, but when faced with absolute statements based on nothing, I react.
| Quote: Originally posted by Mr. Wizard | I'm theorizing out loud here. The one proven chemical route to immortality is called reproduction. Life is a chemical reaction with a history. It is a
'program' that 'runs' in a certain chemical environment, just like a computer program runs in a computer's environment. Life allows memories of
'working', that is surviving, chemical reactions to move forward. The actual living contemporary organisms can also be programmed and their 'thinking'
is analogous to a program running in a computer. Bad programs tend to be removed as non functional. Civilization and social organizations are
programming that exists among the living beings.
I've never seen this actually printed anywhere, but it just seems an obvious extension from computer programming.
When you speak of immortality, do you just mean the living DNA of your cells? I'm guessing you also mean the cognitive awareness that comes with the
programming of your life's experience, which adds another layer of difficulty to your project. Simple DNA immortality does seem to be a possibility,
as in cloning, but even then there are problems. If civilization, the program that runs among some of us, continues to operate, I think the answer to
everlasting life can and will be solved. This will only happen if civilization has enough wealth to afford the non essential explorations we
associate with scientific advancement, and the mindset to allow it. Current trends are not bullish.
In short, find a nice promising DNA partner and make lots of babies, and teach them about the world. It's hard work, but proven successful.
edit: spelling
[Edited on 19-12-2011 by Mr. Wizard] |
I think he's talking about our awareness. That's the only thing that truly matters when talking about immortality. Whether it's in the form of neural
pathways in a squishy brain, or electrical charges in a tomorrow's vastly complicated supercomputer, it's about preserving out consciousness and
memories.
Genome is nothing, really. Just a blueprint for making a host.
Reproduction saves half of our genome. Our grandchildren will possess one quarter. Their children one eighth, etc. It gets dilluted heavily by the
time we reach fifth generation.
Immortality is just impossible, but extension of quality life... I'm all for that.
| Quote: Originally posted by fledarmus | Chemical route to immortality - discover, develop, and popularize a new and incredibly useful synthetic reaction.
2nd chemical route to immortality - develop a new framework for understanding and expanding our current chemical knowledge.
3rd chemical route to immortality - teach and mentor a new generation of chemists.
Make sure that the life you have now is worth living before worrying about trying to extend it.
|
That is a beautiful post to read in the morning before going to work. Thank you.
| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/could-age-reversal-mice-be-ap...
Just the first hit off of google to bring the topic up, there is much better resources out there for this branch of life extension. Antioxidants may
be quackery but i think there is great promise in the area of Telomeres to make man live much longer. I am impressed with the progress that is being
made since I first heard of this when I was a teen. |
Antioxidants aren't quackery. Selling them and saying they will give you 30 extra years is.
They're quite useful for cell biochemistry.
Telomeres are one of the keys, true. It's an exciting era for molecular biology.
[Edited on 20-12-2011 by Endimion17]
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peach
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| Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston |
There have been spectacular results with primates that become a lot older in good health, so it is very likely that it will work in humans as well,
but obviously nobody has tried that and it is not very ethical to do so. Perhaps some individuals are crazy enough to test it on themselves, but any
results will then be anecdotal at best, and therefore nearly useless from a scientific perspective. |
People have started trying it on themselves. Many people around the world also have it forced on them by not having access to the gross indulgence we
enjoy food wise.
I think an idea like that could only be successful in countries like the US and UK, where obesity and a piss poor diet are prominent. It's not going
to work. At least, anywhere close to the way they're thinking, as is. The effect only works well in lifeforms that have genetically adapted to run on
next to nothing to begin with. There is a base level below which we can't go with our normal metabolism.
What they're really perposing, under a different name, and what's actually at work, is a.) not being a jabba, b.) eating things the body was designed
to function on (not a diet designed mainly around refined corn and modified versions of corn, carbohydrate and sugar fillers in every bite, drenched
in fats).***
The standard approach for prolonging life so far has been to wait for the pathology of aging to appear and to then try to remedy that, usually with
some form of drug (e.g. for Alzheimers).
After genetics became a big deal, people started thinking it wouldn't be long until we could engineer babies to be super humans that could live
exponentially longer. Modifying DNA at such a base level (metabolism and other body wide complex, life sustaining systems) is not as simple as
scanning embryos for one missing gene, or swapping a gene for eye colour.
A more interesting approach is that there are not many root causes of the serious problems associated with aging and there are already systems in
place in the body to repair the damage they normally cause, up to a point.
Metabolism, for instance, requires the constant mopping up of free radicals and repair where they have managed to damage some cell component. The
process occurs continually throughout life. But not perfectly. Over time, the damage gradually accumulates.
The same is true of other systems, such as plaques forming in the brain. Which causes little harm to younger people, but lead on to neurological
issues (Alzheimers / dementia) later in life.
And the unwinding of the telomeres.
There are a few others as well, but not that many, lying at the root of the pathologies seen in later life. Rather than try to engineer those out
entirely at a genetic level (very difficult), or wait for their effects to appear and use drugs (too late on), more focus is now being put on
preventative intervention earlier in life to instead help the body fix the wear and tear it's self. That seems like the most realistic method of
extending lifespans by any major step in the near future.
Aubrey De Grey is a name you will likely find appearing frequently in searches related to aging.
| Quote: | | Dr. Aubrey de Grey is a biomedical gerontologist based in Cambridge, UK, and is the Chief Science Officer of SENS Foundation, a California-based
501(c)(3) charity dedicated to combating the aging process. He is also Editor-in-Chief of Rejuvenation Research, the world’s highest-impact
peer-reviewed journal focused on intervention in aging. He received his BA and Ph.D. from the University of Cambridge in 1985 and 2000 respectively.
His original field was computer science, and he did research in the private sector for six years in the area of software verification before switching
to biogerontology in the mid-1990s. His research interests encompass the characterisation of all the accumulating and eventually pathogenic molecular
and cellular side-effects of metabolism (“damage”) that constitute mammalian aging and the design of interventions to repair and/or obviate that
damage. He has developed a possibly comprehensive plan for such repair, termed Strategies for Engineered Negligible Senescence (SENS), which breaks
aging down into seven major classes of damage and identifies detailed approaches to addressing each one. A key aspect of SENS is that it can
potentially extend healthy lifespan without limit, even though these repair processes will probably never be perfect, as the repair only needs to
approach perfection rapidly enough to keep the overall level of damage below pathogenic levels. Dr. de Grey has termed this required rate of
improvement of repair therapies “longevity escape velocity”. Dr. de Grey is a Fellow of both the Gerontological Society of America and the
American Aging Association, and sits on the editorial and scientific advisory boards of numerous journals and organisations. |
***I think a lot of you would enjoy the documentary Food Inc. It is not about vegetarianism or veganism, it is about how the food industry works; e.g.
Monstanto owning most of the farms via intellectual property, sending their rough boys round to visit the farmers and their ex employees sitting on
the boards that regulate food products (blocking the labeling of products containing genetically modified strains and the nutritional content labels
on fast food).
[Edited on 20-12-2011 by peach]
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Adas
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| Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17 |
While there's nothing in the world that could be a reason to say there isn't a god (it is impossible to prove its nonexistence or existence), "near
death experiences" are just woo woo.
A pertaining scientist can believe there's something beyond this existence (I myself hope there is, that's it), but saying that near death
experiences are any proof of it is a hammer in the head of a nail in the coffin of his credibility.
NDE is brain getting messed up while dying. Period. It's all physiology and while its proven explanation is not so old, it was thought it happens like
that for more than 50 years.[Edited on 20-12-2011 by Endimion17] |
Okay, you say NDE is caused by "brain getting messed up". But there were cases of NDE in pacients with as low sugar levels in brain as 1 mg/dl. Their
brain was almost DEAD. Almost dead brain can not produce so clear and fantastic experiences.
So I am not talking shit. I have done some research before.
Rest In Pieces!
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Bot0nist
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Can you post some of the sources and research youve you've?
U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!
Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
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Adas
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2793638/posts
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/science/near-death-experiences-30-years-of-research-part-1-61547.html
Rest In Pieces!
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by Adas | | Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17 |
While there's nothing in the world that could be a reason to say there isn't a god (it is impossible to prove its nonexistence or existence), "near
death experiences" are just woo woo.
A pertaining scientist can believe there's something beyond this existence (I myself hope there is, that's it), but saying that near death
experiences are any proof of it is a hammer in the head of a nail in the coffin of his credibility.
NDE is brain getting messed up while dying. Period. It's all physiology and while its proven explanation is not so old, it was thought it happens like
that for more than 50 years.[Edited on 20-12-2011 by Endimion17] |
Okay, you say NDE is caused by "brain getting messed up". But there were cases of NDE in pacients with as low sugar levels in brain as 1 mg/dl. Their
brain was almost DEAD. Almost dead brain can not produce so clear and fantastic experiences.
So I am not talking shit. I have done some research before. |
And who says all of those experiences occur right at that very moment? Why couldn't they occur during the waking up?
Dreams can seem to last for few years, you can grow old in your dream, but in reality, they usually not longer than half an hour.
You're missing the fact that there's no reference point. A dying brain is shuts down its consciousness and sensory inputs get inside and become
garbled, mix with older data. Rebooting can last for few minutes during which new unique "experiences" are made which are then processed when
consciousness kicks back in, tricking the person to think they were on a fantastic journey through whatever their mind made up.
NDE is messed brain, glowing tunnel is nervus olfactorius shutting down. That's what we know. Those things aren't mystical, but hardcore
clinical shit studied for decades. Some think it's morbid, but I find it quite interesting.
If anyone wants to believe something else, that's their opinion. Some people believe in tooth fairies, too. But saying it's science... that's just
wrong. Those things belong with "soul weight measuring" bullshit.
[Edited on 20-12-2011 by Endimion17]
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AndersHoveland
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The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long. The quality of life is more important than quantity.
If you are so concerned about your chemical knowledge vanishing with you, perhaps you should write a book, to leave behind for posterity.
Many ancient Chinese alchemists spent [wasted] their entire lives searching for the "secrets of immortality". No use struggling against the
inevitible.
Even if, hypothetically, it some day becomes possible to extend human life without limit, I do not really see any point. Cells in the human body are
constantly dying and being repalced by other cells. This is really no different from humans dying and being replaced by the next generation.
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Sedit
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Every cell does not contain ones conciseness so yes, there is a huge difference between the two. I would love to live "forever" or at lest something
close to it.
After death nothing that ever happened will have happened... that's the fucked up part of it all. I look at my life and don't like the idea of this
never happening which means death is a shitty option. At one point I would not mind to die perhaps but as it stands I would like a lot more time then
the possible 100 years at best I am looking at right now if I'm lucky.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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AndersHoveland
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| Quote: Originally posted by Sedit | Every cell does not contain ones conciseness so yes, there is a huge difference between the two. I would love to live "forever" or at lest something
close to it.
After death nothing that ever happened will have happened... that's the fucked up part of it all. I look at my life and don't like the idea of this
never happening which means death is a shitty option. |
What exactly is "consciousness"? Does it actually exist, or is it just a convenient human conception, a way of perceiving reality?
What about the theories that speculate that the universe will repeat over and over again, that time and space are circular?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=118239
[Edited on 21-12-2011 by AndersHoveland]
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Sedit
International Hazard
Posts: 1939
Registered: 23-11-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: Manic Expressive
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I know about the continuous universe theories but they are that... theories. I don't wish to base my existence off of someones assumptions.
I also don't wish to base my existence off my own assumptions. This means I need more time to think and must live longer then possible right now. I
think most of us on this forum will live to 120-150 and perhaps longer. The progress is being made so fast that we may live much longer. Who knows
where Nano Technology will take us. Immortality seems viable when you can rebuild things from the atom up.
Knowledge is useless to useless people...
"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the
fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story
before."~Maynard James Keenan
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