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Author: Subject: Chemical route to Immortality
DerAlte
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[*] posted on 20-12-2011 at 22:12


AH wrote:

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What exactly is "consciousness"?


Don't even ask! Or this thread will go on for ever.

Sedit wrote:

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I think most of us on this forum will live to 120-150 and perhaps longer.


Really? Who is going to work to pay the Social Services you will no doubt need to service your aging decrepit frame at that age? Your great great grandchild? No, he/she will be working for his/her aging parents. As for the world's population, you think China's is large now? When you are 150 it will be in the trillions. Or maybe there will be state order sterilization at birth except for party members of the global world order. Do not wish for disaster.

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[*] posted on 20-12-2011 at 22:24


I didn't suggest I think it is right, I just suggested what I see as a general trend in modern medicine and understanding of the biological system. In under 100 years we have greatly increased the lifespan of the body.

I understand your age DerAlte and I understand my own. At only 30 I do not really include myself in the portion I think will live to be these ages however never underestimate the rate of progress. It is happening very fast. Possibly faster then we can handle like you mentioned about china but that is a topic for the responsibility of humanity thread not this one.

Many deaths are from heart failer.... we are quickly reaching the time where growing you a new heart from your own genes is not even a little bit out of the question. If you extend there lives imagine the lives of those from liver, lung, and brain issues.... You are looking at a much larger global average in life span if we could fix even the basics. This is not even touching on the technologies of Nanotech or Telomeres. With there help it will make small issues like heart failer look like a thing of the past.





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Endimion17
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[*] posted on 21-12-2011 at 03:32


Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
What exactly is "consciousness"? Does it actually exist, or is it just a convenient human conception, a way of perceiving reality?

What about the theories that speculate that the universe will repeat over and over again, that time and space are circular?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=118239

[Edited on 21-12-2011 by AndersHoveland]


Consciousness is an emergent property of our brain, like one tree is one tree, but 5000 trees is 5000 trees, but also a forest. That's the elegant explanation. A way of perceiving reality, that's also a good one. Always keep it simple and elegant.

If universe really repeats itself, that doesn't matter to anyone. I am now and I will not be again, because if I am every now and then, it would be a part od me, part of my memories.
The same thing goes for reincarnation, which is by fat the most idiotic idea I've ever came across that's somehow so popular with hipsters in the West. "Yay, I'm going to be born again!".... FAIL, you're not. :D




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[*] posted on 21-12-2011 at 08:04


I like the old startrek puzzle.

If you go into a fictional teleporter and every atom in you dis integrated and there state transmitted and reconstructed. are you the same person ? is the reel you dead and a copy with your memory in its place? how would you tell ? the copy of you will claim to be you and in good health and pass any test a observer might conceive.

but then is that really any different than waking up each morning with nothing but a memory of your previous life ? could it be that you 'die' and get resurrected everyday ? if so then would the method of resurrection make any difference at all ?



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Endimion17
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[*] posted on 21-12-2011 at 08:17


Quote: Originally posted by bquirky  
I like the old startrek puzzle.

If you go into a fictional teleporter and every atom in you dis integrated and there state transmitted and reconstructed. are you the same person ? is the reel you dead and a copy with your memory in its place? how would you tell ? the copy of you will claim to be you and in good health and pass any test a observer might conceive.

but then is that really any different than waking up each morning with nothing but a memory of your previous life ? could it be that you 'die' and get resurrected everyday ? if so then would the method of resurrection make any difference at all ?





That's fictious teleportation and irrelevant, but also only mildly scary.

Real, scary teleportation would be scanning the quantum information of every particle in your body, thus destroying the integrity of the particles (basically killing you, turning you into a mush of atoms and molecules), and then transmitting and applying collected info to a distant machine that has all the necessary particles in storage.

Teleportation doesn't destroy the matter. It is not a cut-paste operation, but copy-paste, and if you want it to look like a cut-paste, you have to delete the original. That's the fucked up part.

From the quantum mechanics viewpoint, the copied particle is basically the same one, as there are no means of distinguishing one from another.
But humans (matter and information contained in it) aren't just particles. They're a set of particles, sorted in a specific way in a point of time. That really means a killing would be neccessary, which is of course, unethical.




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White Yeti
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[*] posted on 28-12-2011 at 08:07


A human being in his highest state of entropy is a dead man. So why try to be immortal? When we try to extend our life expectancies, we start to fall ill to diseases, heretofore unseen. Difficult to cure diseases like cancer, Alzheimer's, and countless others arise when the body lives longer than it was naturally designed to live. It only gets worse as we try to live longer. So why bother?



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[*] posted on 28-12-2011 at 14:54


there was this show on curiosity in the us
Can we live forever
http://www.videoweed.es/file/4e9c28b5cc0e3
after deleting adds

if any one has a better full video to watch this show online please post link.

[Edited on 29-12-2011 by symboom]
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 14:12


http://www.viewzone.com/aging.html

This is some good read for basics of aging. Since oxidation damage is the main reason our normal cell need to repair to divide(beyond repair) and that vitamin C could decrease the oxidation damage, does that mean taking in vitamin C can increase your life span?

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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 18:07


The last time I looked at the Big-S Science for life extension, the things you could do to extend your lifespan were:

1. Don't smoke, drink excessively, or use illegal drugs.
2. Live in a first world country with enough money to pay for your care.
3. Be in a long term relationship.
4. Maintain regular social connections, particularly in your later years.
5. Retain some degree of physical activity.
6. Wear a seatbelt and drive the speed limit.
7. Maintain a caloric restriction diet.
8. If male, seek castration.


Anecdotally I'll add a one more based on personal experience.
9. During your later years aggressively pursue medical care.
- My mother (78) (Active, mobile, no-dementia, private health insurance) was diagnosed in November with kidney stones. While diagnosing this they also found a tiny (< 2 mm) tumor. She spent two painful months going to different doctors attempting to find someone to treat her and remove the tumor. Multiple doctors refused and offerred to send her home with a painkiller dispensing pump to make her comfortable until her death. Treated, stage 1 Renal Cell Carcinoma has a 96% survival rate.

There are a prodigious number of other claims regarding the longevity effects of reservatrol, anti-oxidants, statins, vitamin supplements, CoQ10, etc. I haven't researched these in any depth and leave that to you. Beware the confused and charlatans. Seek published sources and keep a healthy dose of skepticism. Please write back if you find anything promising.

Full disclosure: I am a member of the Cryonics institute, cryonics.org, and the Life Extension Foundation. I materially support both organizations for my greedy self-interest of not dying. (that's plan A.)




My Journal has moved to http://extraparts.info
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Chemosynthesis
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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 19:14


Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
Yes, it is possible, in vitro, on cell cultures. But we are not in vitro, and we're certainly not cell cultures.

This. I work with cell cultures every day, for the express purpose of prolonging life or alleviating suffering... and cell cultures can be radically different from a whole organism, or other organisms. Even looking at clinical metadatasets, stats can be skewed for funding pretty easily.

Quote: Originally posted by fledarmus  
An interesting book review from a blog dedicated to exposing poor science in alternative medicine...

Life Extension: Science or Pipe Dream?

Pretty accurate from my experiences. Not just that, but arguably the biggest progenitor of resveratrol hype has been questioned as to the veracity of studies, and so a critical eye must be turned towards to some of the claims.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/756905
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/red-wine-researcher-dr-dipak-k-d...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larryhusten/2012/01/16/resveratr...

It's also important to keep in mind correlative studies are not at all causal, and are easy for people to show up on Dr. Oz with unsubstantiated claims regarding them, and make a merchandising fortune overnight.
That said, there is still a lot of hope for improved quality of life, though it is important to remember how many promising drugs fail at stage 3 clinical trials, and that organisms are different.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/03/science/senescent-cells-ha...
Edit- and death is not the end of catalyst cycles in cells, at least not initially. Proteases and various enzymes are allowed to essentially run rampant in cells at death, and is one reason the body begins to decay. Sequestration of components via membranes breaks down rapidly, which leads to unrestrained catalytic activity, such as calcium mediated excitotoxicity and caspase activation, for example.



[Edited on 2-4-2014 by Chemosynthesis]
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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 20:13


Here's an easy way to be immortal:
Step 1) Be a jellyfish.
Step 2) Sting some tourists, but gently - some of them might have pointy things.
Step 4) Continue to be a jellyfish.




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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 20:55


I think that the truly significant increases in human lifespan yet to be implemented are in the form of gene therapy technologies. Senescence and related diseases are genetic in origin but there is no necessity for their existence. There is very little selection pressure on genes which are deleterious to an individual after reproductive age, these genes have also been increasingly perpetuated in populations with access to modern medicine which allows these traits to be passed on. Eventually germ line gene therapy will allow us to gradually eliminate undesirable alleles or genes as they become documented.
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Sedit
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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 21:15


Quote: Originally posted by ElizabethGreene  


8. If male, seek castration.



Wait....
What...
Hell noooo...
Stop saying that...it hurts...

Anyway. Pardon my skepticism when one of the few woman on our forum suggest we all get Castrated :P

Seriously though why does this extend lifespan. Can't there be some form of chemical castration to mimic the life extending properties of Castration such as hormone alteration instead of cutting off my nuts?





Knowledge is useless to useless people...

"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan
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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 21:35


I believe it has to do with statistics. Higher testosterone is correlated with higher mortality from accidents.

Quote: Originally posted by ElizabethGreene  

7. Maintain a caloric restriction diet.


there was also a recent study saying more muscle mass can be correlated with a longer life. Seems at odds with this.

[Edited on 2-4-14 by The_Davster]
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Chemosynthesis
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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 21:37


Quote: Originally posted by crazyboy  
I think that the truly significant increases in human lifespan yet to be implemented are in the form of gene therapy technologies. Senescence and related diseases are genetic in origin but there is no necessity for their existence. There is very little selection pressure on genes which are deleterious to an individual after reproductive age, these genes have also been increasingly perpetuated in populations with access to modern medicine which allows these traits to be passed on. Eventually germ line gene therapy will allow us to gradually eliminate undesirable alleles or genes as they become documented.

I wouldn't say that senescence serves no purpose; the Hayflick limit helps reduce proliferation of worn out cells and directly suppresses carcinogenesis. Additionally, I would not stroke with so broad a brush as to say there is very little selective pressure on all genes post-reproductive age, as housekeeping genes are always under selective pressure, and apoptosis mechanisms and pathways don't shut off, nor do proofreading mechanisms.

Additionally, gene therapies themselves don't necessarily target epigenetic expressional issues that currently require small molecule pharmacological treatments still in their infancy, such as methylating agents, DNA methyltransferase inhibitors, demethylators, histone deacetylase inhibitors, etc.
PMID: 12495905
PMID: 20025605
PMID: 18851683
doi: 10.1158/1078-0432.CCR-06-2076

Some pharmacotherapeutic agents with carcinoprotective properties in one tissue are actually carcinogenic in others (ex. estrogen in breast vs. ovarian cancer, among others). This makes proper drug targeting vital, which is awkward.
PMID: 23061769
PMID: 10933270

While pharmacological targeting of mitochondrial DNA has yet to offer any success stories I can point towards, I speculate that gene therapies on mtDNA might prove more fruitful in the short term than nuclear. We're still minimizing stochastic issues with gene therapy from decades ago that don't have easy solutions.

http://www.stjude.org/stjude/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=59c8d3ce3...

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/genetherapy/gtchallen...

PMID: 16369569
PMID: 17320506

Excuse the cancer-centric articles, but they are the flipside for aging, and are largely healing/developmental mechanisms gone awry, which I not only view as the opposite of apoptosis and senescence, but an area of experience for me.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v436/n7051/edsumm/e0508...
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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 21:47


I do believe that at the end of the day what should be the primary focus of immortality is figuring out how to store and mimic the brain. If we could keep conciseness alive via a computer or better yet have the ability to implant your memories into another living body then this is where we will truly find the road to immortality. Everything else is Pseudo-immortality because there is no way it could last for as long as the human race does. Memory transfer in theory could last as long as the human race.




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"I see a lot of patterns in our behavior as a nation that parallel a lot of other historical processes. The fall of Rome, the fall of Germany — the fall of the ruling country, the people who think they can do whatever they want without anybody else's consent. I've seen this story before."~Maynard James Keenan
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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 21:54


^Unfortunately, that brings back us back to the more philosophical and less scientific debate about copies vs. originals, which can rapidly devolve into a semantics debate about the definitions of life, mortality, immortality, and other unresolved issues. I mean, if NASA can argue about whether chemically active rocks can constitute alien life (sorry, no citation, but my friends at NASA have told me all kinds of drinking stories), I wouldn't want to go there.
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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 21:55


I wasn't suggesting that senescence serves no purpose, rather that it is not a biological inevitability as evidenced by some organisms which do not appear to exhibit aging. I agree we're a long way off from curing cancer or aging, it seems that every attempt to tinker with our biological machinery has unintended side effects. It may be decades before gene therapy is a viable treatment in all but the most idealized cases.
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Chemosynthesis
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[*] posted on 1-4-2014 at 21:58


Quote: Originally posted by crazyboy  
I wasn't suggesting that senescence serves no purpose, rather that it is not a biological inevitability as evidenced by some organisms which do not appear to exhibit aging. I agree we're a long way off from curing cancer or aging, it seems that every attempt to tinker with our biological machinery has unintended side effects. It may be decades before gene therapy is a viable treatment in all but the most idealized cases.

Duly noted. I didn't infer what was implied from your post, and that's on me for not reading more carefully. I am still amazed daily at how little humanity does understand about what goes on inside cells under various conditions, much to my wonder and aggravation. It makes hypothesizing and grant writing that much more imaginative and tenuous, respectively.
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DubaiAmateurRocketry
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[*] posted on 2-4-2014 at 01:35


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
I do believe that at the end of the day what should be the primary focus of immortality is figuring out how to store and mimic the brain. If we could keep conciseness alive via a computer or better yet have the ability to implant your memories into another living body then this is where we will truly find the road to immortality. Everything else is Pseudo-immortality because there is no way it could last for as long as the human race does. Memory transfer in theory could last as long as the human race.


Is it possible to stay alive forever, say if we took some less important body parts out - eg everything except heart, lungs, and head.

http://cdn1.akamai.coub.com/coub/simple/cw_image/ea9b417681e...

Something like this ? ^
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[*] posted on 2-4-2014 at 08:27


Quote: Originally posted by Sedit  
I do believe that at the end of the day what should be the primary focus of immortality is figuring out how to store and mimic the brain. If we could keep conciseness alive via a computer or better yet have the ability to implant your memories into another living body then this is where we will truly find the road to immortality. Everything else is Pseudo-immortality because there is no way it could last for as long as the human race does. Memory transfer in theory could last as long as the human race.

Definitely agree. I'm very much looking forward to seeing Transcendence when it comes out in a few weeks!
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[*] posted on 2-4-2014 at 13:19


If you skip the the 7 minute 50 second mark, there's some food for thought, although he doesn't touch on every scenario or how the endgame might play out if we do succeed in living forever as an open book.
What will our understanding be then when/if we put it all together? What if the spinning stars only have so much to tell or vastly intelligent life forms are just a print job away, complete intelligence nothing more valuable than a grain of sand?

The 4 stories we tell ourselves about death
http://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_cave_the_4_stories_we_tell_...
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[*] posted on 8-4-2014 at 08:24


Achieving immortality isnt too difficult. You simply clone yourself, allow the clone to live to, say, 20, then do a brain transplant of your brain into the clone's. You will have replaced your ageing body with a brand new version. This also has the added advantage that no new technology has to be invented for it to work.

Another idea, much more difficult though, is to download the content of the brain onto/into a computer, and achieve immortality as well as artificial intelligence.

I admit that neither of these are chemical methods, but the general topic is hardley chemistry itself. Besides, they answer the question.




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[*] posted on 8-4-2014 at 09:17


Hey, are we talking about our hardware (the meat sack sitting in front of the computer), our software (the part of you reading this) or the whole system here?

The hardware doesn't last. Hell, all the cells are being constantly replaced. Not a lot of you physically WAS you 10 years ago.

The software is constantly changing. Are you really the same person you were at age 5?

The system is in permanent flux... You never step into the same river twice & all.

Maybe some of the better bits of information can be recorded, ideally internalized by others (your good ideas live on, not your meat sack or a memory of last week's laundry list). The system sure isn't going to run on forever and still be "you" anyhow.




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[*] posted on 8-4-2014 at 10:17


Quote: Originally posted by The_Davster  
I believe it has to do with statistics. Higher testosterone is correlated with higher mortality from accidents.

Testosterone also increases hemoglobin and hematocrit, which may increase the risk of heart failure in older males... additionally, early stage prostate cancer is androgen sensitive, and the current initial treatment includes castration to starve cells of testosterone. This usually only prolongs life until androgen insensitivity develops, which is much harder to treat, but it can theoretically prolong life.
Quote: Originally posted by eidolonicaurum  
Achieving immortality isnt too difficult. You simply clone yourself, allow the clone to live to, say, 20, then do a brain transplant of your brain into the clone's. You will have replaced your ageing body with a brand new version. This also has the added advantage that no new technology has to be invented for it to work.

Another idea, much more difficult though, is to download the content of the brain onto/into a computer, and achieve immortality as well as artificial intelligence.

I admit that neither of these are chemical methods, but the general topic is hardley chemistry itself. Besides, they answer the question.

While simple in concept, the practice of either of those is unforeseeable without new science and technology, unless you take "content of the brain" as a very rough approximate model.

[Edited on 8-4-2014 by Chemosynthesis]
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