caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Nitrourea and its salts
Could someone give me info on nitrourea and its salts (I mean, of course, nitrate and perchlorate of aforementioned compaund). Preparation of
nitrourea seems very simple. I'd like to know about usefulness of nitrate for some purposes, for example if it can be used as an oxidizer in solid
rocket propellants.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Nitrourea typically is found in the form of an anion [negetively charged ion] in its salts, for example the sodium salt of nitrourea.
Nitroguanidine, however, can form a nitroguanidine nitrate compound. I am not entirely certain, but I do not think nitrourea is basic
enough to form salts of this type.
This is not to say that nitrourea nitrate does not exist, but rather that such a compound would behave more as a mixture of concentrated nitric acid
mixed with nitrourea, and isolating it as a pure solid is likely impractical. Jared Legard mentioned "nitrourea nitrate" but it is to be suspected
that he confused this with urea nitrate, since he made several other mistakes of this type in the same book (for example confusing ammonium
perchlorate with ammonium chlorate which have very different properties).
The dinitrourea salt of nitroguanidine also exists, and has been mentioned on this forum.
http://www.pyronfo.com/high-explosives/synthesis-and-analyse...
[Edited on 21-1-2012 by AndersHoveland]
|
|
|
neptunium
National Hazard
Posts: 985
Registered: 12-12-2011
Location: between Uranium and Plutonium
Member Is Offline
|
|
i never was sure about this guy Jared Ledgard...he sometimes want to do some increadibly stupid things...like conc nitric acid pour directly into
gasoline! lol
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
Nitroguanadine is a fascinating cold explosive. During initial production it's extremely difficult to increase density levels due to almost
"fiber-like" needle crystals. Once the material has been dessicated in lab or industrial conditions, the needles will break and can be compacted
(basic crystal shaving techniques will work fine of the material has been dessicated). Nitrourea is generally too deliquescent to function outside of
a sealed module & is considerably slower. It can be used in water-gels if it's a by-product but forward production doesn't payoff (Dannenburg,
Contemporary History of Explosive Substances in America). NU also has a substantially slow VoD and low caloric release. Urea Nitrate on the other hand
is stable and has substantial utility. Nitroguanadine is used in TBSP, consistently utilized to the present time due to long shelf life and strength.
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Well, thanks, I asked mostly due to information, obtained from aforementioned book. It looks like Jared did not read all texts, that he included into
his famous book. I thought that nitrate of NU if such conpound exists and is more or less stable has good oxigen balance and can be used as an
oxidizer in solid propellants. Nitrourea can be prepared very simple and I have a solid guess, that this process needs no nitric acid at all- it can
be replaced by AN. Dinitrourea for its preparation requires more hard conditions and as I've read it is not very stable. This is why I thought, that
nitrourea nitrate may be something interesting.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Dinitrourea is chemically unstable, or at least vulnerable to hydrolysis. But the compound itself is not an extremely sensitive explosive.
Its salts especially show good explosive performance and moderate resistance to impact.
|
|
|
quicksilver
International Hazard
Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline
Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~
|
|
Mr Legard's book can make you quite frustrated. I have an opinion that he has or had an extremely well equipped lab with every reagent he needed at
his fingertips. Thus you see 1.52 HNO3, acidic anhydride being used at most every turn, quality lab hardware that many university level labs could
not afford and what appears a rush for finish & get it in print. What's more he frequently uses materials that are quite uncommon outside
industrial settings .
Industrial manufacturing techniques may appear to be beyond reach but not all IF you look at the big-picture and think about the chemical math and
process before going further. If a Legard formula interests you by all means get confirmation from a trusted source. If using a public patent,
remember that there is a "trade secret" law that took effect a few decades back and the patent may be misleading or omit vital nuances.
A great investment (IMO) are quality glassware, Stiring hotplate with assortment of bars, digital temp, a microscope (really helps in a lot of ways)
and Ph gauges and a caustic approved vacuum pump. Nytril gloves even though a bit baggy can be more protective, full face shield rather than goggles
give better protection & allow wearing glasses & shielding mouth). The water-bed tool can ruin a distillation due to alterations in water
pressure. Some places are much more prone to this. A toilet flushing, a dishwasher, or clothes washer can ruin a lot of hard work. Lab coats ARE worth
the cost or hassle to get them. Toxicity via skin contact is very easy to miss and with many materials having a mean LD50, it just is good insurance.
A VERY good answer to this problem is (aside from looking elsewhere from Legard's 2nd addition) is to scale way down experiments. You receive safety,
lower cost, easier environmental control and greater possibility of reagents availability.
|
|
|
Aqua_Fortis_100%
Hazard to Others
Posts: 302
Registered: 24-12-2006
Location: Brazil
Member Is Offline
Mood: †
|
|
Dinitrourea and its salts have interesting properties, but the synthesis is PITA (as AndersHoveland said, very prone to hydrolysis, its very difficult
to get rid of the acidic traces, chemically unstable, etc).
Attached are "Synthesis and Analysis of N,N'-Dinitrourea" and a patent of DPT synthesis from nitrourea.
The study attached was already in my patents/documents folder, but was already first posted by someone in some thread long time ago, IIRC.
DPT is interesting since it can be used to make HMX.
Attachment: dinitrourea.pdf (85kB)
This file has been downloaded 1348 times
Attachment: US4338442-dpt.pdf (134kB)
This file has been downloaded 1076 times
"The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant."
|
|
|
caterpillar
Hazard to Others
Posts: 472
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
I saw discussion on dinitrourea at this forum. You should understand, some experiments are interesting by themselfes. To make an explosion one needs
only AN+gasoline. I do not know, which lab has Mr. Ledgard (if any), but sometimes his book likes an compilation from difefrent sources, made without
tinyest criticism. Yeah, absence of many raw materials (like acetic anhydride) forced me to find what can be done with what can be obtained in a
market. This is why I tryed to replace HNO3 by H2SO4 + MeNO3 for example.
Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
|
|
|
AndersHoveland
Hazard to Other Members, due to repeated speculation and posting of untested highly dangerous procedures!
Posts: 1986
Registered: 2-3-2011
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Dinitrobiuret is another compound that is similar to nitrourea, I found this in some old literature:
Biuret has the structure NH2C(=O)-NH-C(=O)NH2. Nitrobiuret, O2N-NHC(=O)-NH-C(=O)NH2, is prepared by adding biuret in small portions to a mixture of
concentrated nitric and sulfuric acids, separates from water as a white, crystalline powder, which melts and decomposes at 165 degrees; it decomposes
in boiling water. The potassium and silver salts are anhydrous. Dinitrobiuret, NO2NHC(=O)NHC(=O)NHNO2, produced when the finely divided nitrobiuret is
added to fuming nitric acid cooled with a freezing mixture, crystallizes in methanol in white needles, and explodes at 124 degrees, decomposes in
boiling water. The potassium salt crystallizes from water in colorless, rhombic plates.
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
