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rstar
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how to find the presence of methanol
Hi geeks,
I've got a alcohol solution (if u know about it then its a homeopathic medicine, so-called mother tincture)
It's said that the solution is made of ethanol, but it might have some methanol (adulteration issues -_-;; ).
how can i find out if it contains methanol or not ? pls tell simplest ways that don't require lots of chemicals (if there are any,  )
thx in advance
[Edited on 26-1-2012 by rstar]
"A tidy laboratory means a lazy chemist "
- Jöns Jacob Berzelius
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fledarmus
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Run an NMR. If there is more than a couple of percent, you should be able to find it easily.
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neptunium
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Quote: Originally posted by rstar  |
pls tell simplest ways that don't require lots of chemicals (if there are any,
[Edited on 26-1-2012 by rstar] |
NMR ? it doesnt look like this would be in the budget of a 13 years old. or even practical
[Edited on 26-1-2012 by neptunium]
[Edited on 26-1-2012 by neptunium]
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bahamuth
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If the alkohol solution is anhydrous, which I guess it's not, one could possible go by some derivative like the alkoxide and measure the
melting/boiling point to determine the purity.
May be way off here but without a GC or a NMR it may be the only way.
This actually peaks my interest since it would be nice to have a method of detecting methanol in ethanol (the ethanol being from "non-taxed"
sources...).
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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GreenD
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other than nmr, gc, ms, lc - don't know. Maybe a long column... but yeah then I still don't know how you'd do it.
You could always give it to your cat. If you notice the cat running into walls methanol may be present.
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by rstar | Hi geeks,
I've got a alcohol solution (if u know about it then its a homeopathic medicine, so-called mother tincture)
It's said that the solution is made of ethanol, but it might have some methanol (adulteration issues -_-;; ).
how can i find out if it contains methanol or not ? pls tell simplest ways that don't require lots of chemicals (if there are any, )
thx in advance
[Edited on 26-1-2012 by rstar] |
First of all, calling anything homeopathic as "medicine" is quite frankly ridiculous.
Second, there's the boric acid test. I don't know exactly how sensitive it is, but if you see any green colour, there's probably enough methanol
inside to be quite toxic.
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GreenD
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| Quote: | [quote=234486&tid=18646&author=Endimion17]
First of all, calling anything homeopathic as "medicine" is quite frankly ridiculous. |
Why? You should look further into the studies done on homeopathic medicine in acclaimed university chemistry/medicine labs. . . Don't be so quick to
judge.
[Edited on 26-1-2012 by GreenD]
[Edited on 26-1-2012 by GreenD]
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neptunium
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i find the problem very interesting detecting methanol without ethanol interfering with it is a problem i came accross in the past as well .
never heard of anything involving boric acid except to make a green flame in pyrotechnic. nut it doesnt mean its not out there...
i am going to do some search and run some test i`ll keep you posted.
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entropy51
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http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ie50195a027
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bahamuth
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| Quote: | | Quote: Originally posted by GreenD | [quote=234486&tid=18646&author=Endimion17]
First of all, calling anything homeopathic as "medicine" is quite frankly ridiculous. |
Why? You should look further into the studies done on homeopathic medicine in acclaimed university chemistry/medicine labs. . . Don't be so quick to
judge.
[Edited on 26-1-2012 by GreenD]
[Edited on 26-1-2012 by GreenD] |
Hope you refrain from posting on a scientific forum if you have any belief in homeopatic methods, or opening your mouth at all.
Belief in homeopathy equals ignorance, and any study suggesting it can be easily disproven by anyone with the slightest knowledge of placebo and how
an unbiased trial should be conducted.
Knowledge is wasted on the stupid!
Sometime wish homeopath believers would overdose on the trace compounds in the drinking water...
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by GreenD | | Why? You should look further into the studies done on homeopathic medicine in acclaimed university chemistry/medicine labs. . . Don't be so quick to
judge. |
Oh dear...
| Quote: Originally posted by neptunium | i find the problem very interesting detecting methanol without ethanol interfering with it is a problem i came accross in the past as well .
never heard of anything involving boric acid except to make a green flame in pyrotechnic. nut it doesnt mean its not out there...
i am going to do some search and run some test i`ll keep you posted.
|
Methanol easily reacts to form methyl borate which gives off green flame. It's a textbook example of distinguishing ethanol from methanol. Again, I'm
not sure how sensitive the method is. There's obviously a limit.
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weiming1998
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Are you going to dilute the alcohol until there is not even one molecule of ethanol/methanol left? If so, then there is no point testing the alcohol
for methanol; it's just water anyway.
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rstar
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nope i'm not going to dilute this,
how about this 
"A tidy laboratory means a lazy chemist "
- Jöns Jacob Berzelius
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weiming1998
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How can you not dilute it if you are going to use it for homeopathy? If you are worried about people getting methanol poisoning after they drink it,
then don't worry, there's (by far) not enough methanol in your homeopathy "remedy" to cause methanol poisoning, even if the person chugged down the
whole bottle.
Anyway, the boric acid test, suggested by previous posts, will help. A copper sulfate test for methanol will help also (copper sulfate does not
dissolve in ethanol at all, I tried) of course, those tests won't work on trace amounts of methanol, but if that's the case, it shouldn't cause any
harm to people (as I said previously.) But don't drink it straight from the bottle, there is still a risk.
One last thing, is your alcohol anhydrous? Because if it is not, then neither boric acid nor copper sulfate test will work (both soluble in water)
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neptunium
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you can distill the alcohol mixture and conduct the test on the first few drops that comes out...if there s any methanol it will be there and not in
the rest of the bottle...
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GreenD
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bahamut, Edimom - homeopathy
Without insulting you for your ignorance:
Bahamut, Edimom
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1475491609...
Just cause you can't explain it, and don't have enough of an open mind to consider it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
PS, a "CH" dilution of >12 means there is theoretically less than 1 molecule per mole of water. <1 part per 1x10^24
[Edited on 27-1-2012 by GreenD]
[Edited on 27-1-2012 by GreenD]
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Endimion17
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What a troll.
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Lambda-Eyde
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So, you're frequenting a chemistry forum and at the same time arguing that higher dilutions are more active than concentrated? Seriously, dude...
This just in: 95,5 % of the world population lives outside the USA
You should really listen to ABBAPlease drop by our IRC channel: #sciencemadness @ irc.efnet.org
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watson.fawkes
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| Quote: Originally posted by Lambda-Eyde | | So, you're frequenting a chemistry forum and at the same time arguing that higher dilutions are more active than concentrated? |
This is the same are arguing that biological systems have entirely monotonic reactions to increasing concentrations, a claim already
known to be false. Indeed, lower dosages can be more active up to a point. All this means is that some agents have local maxima with respect to dosage
or concentration.
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes | | Quote: Originally posted by Lambda-Eyde | | So, you're frequenting a chemistry forum and at the same time arguing that higher dilutions are more active than concentrated? |
This is the same are arguing that biological systems have entirely monotonic reactions to increasing concentrations, a claim already
known to be false. Indeed, lower dosages can be more active up to a point. All this means is that some agents have local maxima with respect to dosage
or concentration. |
The only problem is that homeopathy is all about "solutions" that contain no solutes, but "energy imprint in the water molecules", which is PURE
BULLSHIT.
Its concept is all wrong, basically a dead end in the beggining of modern medicine, and it's proven to be bogus.
Honestly, shit like homeopathy should be banned from SM. What's next, horoscopes, palm reading, pyramid power, crystal healing, dowsing?
If we're up to that, this whole forum can go to hell straight away. There are some standards forums like these should respect.
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bbartlog
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Tangentially, not everything sold under the rubric 'homeopathic' consists of an infinitely dilute solution of whatever. See e.g. http://www.hylands.com/products/teethinggel.php and note the tropane alkaloids... since homeopathy in practice is an amalgam of Hahnemann's fever
dream and traditional herbal remedies, there are some products that are not derived from the dilution-of-the-hair-of-the-dog-that-bit-you.
| Quote: | | "energy imprint in the water molecules", which is PURE BULLSHIT. |
Water has structure above and beyond the individual molecules. Now, it is true that it has within the past ten years been found, *by experiment*, that
these structures are evanescent; but your attempt to reason backwards from theory (in this case your apparent certainty that we know all there is to
know about water) is a poor way of doing science.
The less you bet, the more you lose when you win.
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entropy51
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| Quote: Originally posted by watson.fawkes | | This is the same are arguing that biological systems have entirely monotonic reactions to increasing concentrations, a claim already known to be
false. Indeed, lower dosages can be more active up to a point. All this means is that some agents have local maxima with respect to dosage or
concentration. |
Well yes, but if you extend the dose-response measurements down below conventional
pharmacological concentrations into the homeopathic range of doses, guess what? They monotonically trend to negliglible, or less, as Feynman used to
say. There are no magical maxima down there in the range of homeopathic doses.
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weiming1998
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Even if water has a memory, would it last long enough? What about curing a disease caused by bacteria and viruses (which are living compounds made of
molecules) simply with a memory? All the water in the world should be a homeopathic dilution then, as all the water on earth has been in contact with
billions of things. No need to buy homeopathic medicine, just drink tap water! Also, some of the solutions are so dilute that even the memory of the
memory of a single molecule of the original substance is gone. How do you explain that?
Also, why is people asking homeopathic questions on a chemistry forum? Go to a site like this: http://homeopathyplus.com.au/ and share testimonials!
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Neil
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My tap water told me it was last blue whale piss.
small amounts of methanol are natural in dirty fermentations like red grape juice -->red wine.
Is it made from raw distilled liquor or was it made from denatured alcohol?
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Endimion17
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| Quote: Originally posted by bbartlog | | Tangentially, not everything sold under the rubric 'homeopathic' consists of an infinitely dilute solution of whatever. See e.g. http://www.hylands.com/products/teethinggel.php and note the tropane alkaloids... since homeopathy in practice is an amalgam of Hahnemann's fever
dream and traditional herbal remedies, there are some products that are not derived from the dilution-of-the-hair-of-the-dog-that-bit-you.
|
Early homeopathy was dealing with minute quantities which didn't work. Today's homeopathy prefers infinitesimal dillutions. Yeah, I know that 0.001%
tinctures are being sold, but dillution that's not the only problem with homeopathy. It's the fact it has never ever been proven to work (though
people tried and tried), and the very concept is bogus.
Here's one great guy that has explained it quite well.
<iframe sandbox width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BWE1tH93G9U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
| Quote: | Water has structure above and beyond the individual molecules. Now, it is true that it has within the past ten years been found, *by experiment*, that
these structures are evanescent; but your attempt to reason backwards from theory (in this case your apparent certainty that we know all there is to
know about water) is a poor way of doing science.
|
I'm not "trying to do science" here. I'm just informing you of facts. I'm crushing the homeopathy statements, and I don't need to be an omniscent
being to tell that water can't do that stuff.
Your argument is close to the famous copper "problem", and it goes something like: "If we didn't measure and determine properties of all copper
atoms in the universe, we can't say that all copper in the universe conducts electricity."
Well, yeah, speaking strictly, we can't. But that's irrelevant. We use statistics and logic induction. And it works. No copper sample we've ever
encountered is an isolator, and no sample of water showed any memory capabilities.
And if we ever find a piece of copper that doesn't conduct electricity, or water sample that remembers what was it part of, our knowledge of copper
and water will be greater. Let me just be nonscientific and say that will never happen.
I know water molecules form structures, and I know that they last for a ridiculously tiny amount of time. It's nothing new, and they were certainly
known to exist for a much longer time than ten years.
So better think about your way of doing science, because if you're going to use absolute statements, you'll never ever be able to conclude anything
from any experiment.
That's philosophy you're dealing with, not natural science.
[Edited on 28-1-2012 by Endimion17]
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