Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
Author: Subject: Mixture of KNO3 and sulfur doesn't burn..
bdbstone
Harmless
*




Posts: 18
Registered: 23-4-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 30-1-2012 at 16:45
Mixture of KNO3 and sulfur doesn't burn..


Well, I don't know where to ask this, but why doesn't the mixture of KNO3 + sulfur alone(without charcoal) burn at all? Whats the difference, between oxidizing one element and oidizing another..

My guess is its the temperature that doesn't get hot enough, so the KNO3 doesn't decompose at sucessfully oxidizing sulfur. So its only with this higher temperature burn elements that KNO3 will work with...
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 30-1-2012 at 16:54


Potassium nitrate and sulfur burns quite nicely. Melt down the sulfur, and stir in the correct amount of nitrate. Mix well and let it solidify. It will burn quite well and to completion, though not as fast as black powder.



U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bdbstone
Harmless
*




Posts: 18
Registered: 23-4-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 30-1-2012 at 17:43


Thanks, though isn't that a "little bit" dangerous? Bit looks like 'yellow powder'.

Well my questions was more of a thinking, about whats the chemical reaction behind. So I will have to ask now why KNO3+sulfur when melted burns, but KNO3+sulfur when mixed "dry" doesn't ;) I don't have chemical knowledge myself to answer this questions so I have to ask here..

[Edited on 31-1-2012 by bdbstone]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 30-1-2012 at 18:24


Probably wasn't intimently mixed, either that or your proportions weren't right.



U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bert
Super Administrator
*********




Posts: 2744
Registered: 12-3-2004
Member Is Offline

Mood: " I think we are all going to die. I think that love is an illusion. We are flawed, my darling".

[*] posted on 30-1-2012 at 22:17


Sulfer is actually a fairly high temperature fuel, and burns just fine with potassium nitrate. You may not have sufficiently fine nitrate particle size or adequate mixing-

Barium and Strontium nitrates do have a different decomposition depending on flame temperature, generally a metalic fuel will be needed to release all the Oxygen potentially available from these.



[Edited on 31-1-2012 by Bert]




Rapopart’s Rules for critical commentary:

1. Attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly and fairly that your target says: “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.”
2. List any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3. Mention anything you have learned from your target.
4. Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.

Anatol Rapoport was a Russian-born American mathematical psychologist (1911-2007).

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 31-1-2012 at 07:05


Its not hazardous if you use a boiling water bath the melt the sulfur and keep the quantities sane you'll be fine.

[Edited on 1-2-2012 by Bot0nist]




U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Adas
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 711
Registered: 21-9-2011
Location: Slovakia
Member Is Offline

Mood: Sensitive to shock and friction

[*] posted on 31-1-2012 at 09:53


Quote: Originally posted by bdbstone  
My guess is its the temperature that doesn't get hot enough, so the KNO3 doesn't decompose at sucessfully oxidizing sulfur. So its only with this higher temperature burn elements that KNO3 will work with...


This is so true. Here is it: Just add few grains of sugar on the top of the mix, light it up, and then it will work nicely.




Rest In Pieces!
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
AirCowPeaCock
National Hazard
****




Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline

Mood: Hazardous

[*] posted on 31-1-2012 at 12:47


Where'd you get your KNO3? It should burn (atleast alittle) even if the ratios are a quite a bit off.



BOLD

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 31-1-2012 at 13:36


Yeah, sulfur burns just fine in atmospheric oxygen. Add KNO3, in the right proportion and intimately mixed will burn great.



U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
quicksilver
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1820
Registered: 7-9-2005
Location: Inches from the keyboard....
Member Is Offline

Mood: ~-=SWINGS=-~

[*] posted on 31-1-2012 at 15:32


Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
Probably wasn't intimently mixed, either that or your proportions weren't right.



That's that I was going to say. :D In Black Powder you have carbon as a fuel and sulfur as both a fuel & reducing agent. It will lower to reduce heat stimulus but in most any MIXTURE (composition) the physical intimacy is nearly always they key to performance. While goring or friction/ impact mixture (see Stamp Mills) intimate mix is potentially very dangerous, They are mixed together (the charcoal and sulfur) till intimate (whether that's a melt and grind or a mill or straight grind). This is then mixed with a solution of KNO3/ H2O (water is at a temp of 60C or better)and that is manually solution is then mixed with the fuel. What this can do it adhere the fuel and oxidizer. To maintain an element of safety, one mixes your fuel(s) first and then adds the oxidizer as a solution: whereupon all are mixed as a whetted composition. This is the "separation process prior to corning".

This is extremely important. And just on the subject of BP alone I have personally witnessed some of the fastest BP I could ever hope to witness (much faster than factory) with minimal ash, enormous gas production is one of the shortest periods of time, that could approach theatrical Flash in speed!

Below is a summery of intimate mixing procedures: some very valuable points brought up.. intimate mixing brings the professional side of composition production to light. Remember the whetting solution is not just for safety but for intimate mixing and for utility prior to corning as a very small level of bonding agent may be used.


Deepest thanks for http://www.creagan.net in their professional presentation and excellent breakdown to BP speed, components and in-depth charcoal & fuels dialog.

Attachment: blackpowder.pdf (66kB)
This file has been downloaded 481 times



[Edited on 31-1-2012 by quicksilver]




View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pulverulescent
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 792
Registered: 31-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: Torn between two monikers ─ "hissingnoise" and the present incarnation!

[*] posted on 31-1-2012 at 15:46


"For the Saltpeter is the Soule, the Sulphur the Life, and the Coales the Body of it, Forsooth"! ─ John Bate.

P




"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"

A Einstein
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 31-1-2012 at 18:33


Thanks for the file and link quicksilver!
I always wet my powder with distilled H<sub>2</sub>O after the components are mixed. I will have to try the KNO<sub>3</sub> solution method.

I have made some crazy fast BP before as well. It was using lamp black and around 5 days in a ball mill. Can't remember the damn ratios, and it was before I ever started taking notes. I used a 20% EtOH v/v in distilled water to moisten. Not sure if that had any beneficial affects at all though. It burned with a hell of a WOOMP, and proved too much for my little rockets. About every other one ended up as a crappy fire cracker.

[Edited on 1-2-2012 by Bot0nist]




U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
AirCowPeaCock
National Hazard
****




Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline

Mood: Hazardous

[*] posted on 1-2-2012 at 09:31


I don't see how you managed to get even the fastest BP to turn a small rocket into a firecracker..You used meal right? And pressed the BP into the rocket with a strong clay plug holding then end in? Core burner or end burner? I like core burners personally, but there are advantages to the other types. A little FFFa can be added, but if you have good meal there is certainly no need..maybe your IR penetrated..add a little graphite powder next time, it solves any IR problems and catalyzes the reaction (or so I've heard..). Also I know many experienced pyros use binder when making their rockets, but if you do make sure to add a stochiometric amount of oxidizer afterwords. I use KClO4 to balance the binder, but make sure not to add any more sensitive oxidizers than KNO3 pre-milling. I use 4.2% dextrin, 4.2% Parlon and 8.3% KClO4 and wet with a 50-50 acetone water mix--its probably a bit excessive, but it doesn't slow down the BP, and I get very hard grains. Gee, its been awhile since I've done any pyro, I miss it. /:

[Edited on 2-1-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]




BOLD

View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pulverulescent
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 792
Registered: 31-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: Torn between two monikers ─ "hissingnoise" and the present incarnation!

[*] posted on 1-2-2012 at 09:40


Quote:
Gee, its been awhile since I've done any pyro, I miss it.

Ditto!

P




"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"

A Einstein
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 1-2-2012 at 11:20


Quote: Originally posted by AirCowPeaCock  
I don't see how you managed to get even the fastest BP to turn a small rocket into a firecracker..You used meal right? And pressed the BP into the rocket with a strong clay plug holding then end in? Core burner or end burner? I like core burners personally, but there are advantages to the other types. A little FFFa can be added, but if you have good meal there is certainly no need..maybe your IR penetrated..add a little graphite powder next time, it solves any IR problems and catalyzes the reaction (or so I've heard..). Also I know many experienced pyros use binder when making their rockets, but if you do make sure to add a stochiometric amount of oxidizer afterwords. I use KClO4 to balance the binder, but make sure not to add any more sensitive oxidizers than KNO3 pre-milling. I use 4.2% dextrin, 4.2% Parlon and 8.3% KClO4 and wet with a 50-50 acetone water mix--its probably a bit excessive, but it doesn't slow down the BP, and I get very hard grains. Gee, its been awhile since I've done any pyro, I miss it. /:

[Edited on 2-1-2012 by AirCowPeaCock]


They were cored. I blame poor construction and air-pockets over fast BP in the case of them bursting. It happens to me sometimes with BP and a lot with chlorate/sugar fuel.




U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
AirCowPeaCock
National Hazard
****




Posts: 311
Registered: 9-1-2012
Location: In your nation!
Member Is Offline

Mood: Hazardous

[*] posted on 1-2-2012 at 11:41


I've never tried chlorate sugar. But I was always a fan of R-candy, I nearly punched a hole through my house with that stuff! Some organization somewhere is trying to send a rocket to space with the stuff..that was a few years ago, they might have done it by now!



BOLD

View user's profile View All Posts By User

  Go To Top