weiming1998
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Nitric acid with bisulfate
I have just found some KNO3 at a shop. So the first thing I tried is making nitric acid with sodium bisulfate and potassium nitrate.
I first tried to boil a solution of both KNO3 and NaHSO4. Then I tried the copper test. It didn't work. Then I dried the solids in the solution and
tried heating it dry. The Bisulfate/nitrate mix liquefied (but the liquid turns back into a solid once it was cold, so that doesn't work), then it
started bubbling. I have a plastic cap with a plastic pipe placed in the hole of the cap, with the pipe leading to some water. At first it seems
normal, then a red cloud of NO2 rapidly rised, with the solution foaming rapidly. My pipe seems to not be working, as the NO2 leaked out of the
beaker, with a smell like a cross between SO2 and Cl2. The water is not bubbling. So I turned off the heat and disposed of the batch. The question
is, can you make nitric acid without a distillation setup with NaHSO4?
If you can't, then I'm either going to pick up some hydrochloric acid later at the pool shop, toss some copper in the solution, then use a dome to
catch NO2 and bubble it through water or some sulfuric acid on eBay.
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Pulverulescent
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Can you not just find sulphuric acid drain-cleaner?
Or boil the bejasus out of battery acid . . . ?
If you do, you'll be sooo glad you did! ( )
P
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
A Einstein
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entropy51
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I don't think so, it
would be hard enough with a distillation setup. Get some sulfuric drain opener, preferably Rooto.
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Rosco Bodine
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Using a bisulfate as a substitute for sulfuric acid, then you should probably try using a different nitrate that doesn't form an acid sulfate
byproduct. Then the dynamic for reaction would favor the production of nitric acid and a normal sulfate byproduct. For example magnesium nitrate,
aluminum nitrate, zinc nitrate, copper nitrate, or calcium nitrate but there would be an insoluble byproduct as complication for calcium nitrate. You
could make a dilute nitric acid by filtering out a nearly insoluble byproduct sulfate, but it would be dilute acid, probably 20% or less HNO3 and the
acid would have some amount of dissolved impurity of the byproduct sulfate salt.
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Mirage
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Do you mean, you will just mix the HCl and Cu and produce NO2 (which is impossible without nuclear chemistry) or do you mean HCl plus KNO3 plus Cu...
Check out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtPiwbRA4N8&feature=plcp&...
It's all there
Chemically yours
Mirage
[Edited on 6-2-2012 by Mirage]
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weiming1998
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Sorry for the oversimplified explanation. What I'm going to do is to mix the HCl with the KNO3, which the following reaction occurs:
HCl+KNO3====>HNO3+KCl. But the remaining HCl in the solution will destroy the HNO3 through: 3HCl+HNO3====>NOCl+Cl2+2H2O, and it is this reaction
that enables aqua regia to dissolve gold. So what I'm going to do is throw some copper in, and because copper is less reactive than hydrogen, no
hydrogen gas evolves when I dissolve copper in the solution. It would instead be: Cu+4 HNO3====>Cu(NO3)2+2H2O+2NO2. The NO2 bubbles through water
and dissociates into HNO3 and HNO2, and the HNO2 decomposes into NO and NO2, which reacts with the water and the cycle repeats until all the NO2 is
used up.
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weiming1998
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Quote: Originally posted by Rosco Bodine  | | Using a bisulfate as a substitute for sulfuric acid, then you should probably try using a different nitrate that doesn't form an acid sulfate
byproduct. Then the dynamic for reaction would favor the production of nitric acid and a normal sulfate byproduct. For example magnesium nitrate,
aluminum nitrate, zinc nitrate, copper nitrate, or calcium nitrate but there would be an insoluble byproduct as complication for calcium nitrate. You
could make a dilute nitric acid by filtering out a nearly insoluble byproduct sulfate, but it would be dilute acid, probably 20% or less HNO3 and the
acid would have some amount of dissolved impurity of the byproduct sulfate salt. |
The problem isn't having no acid. It's having gaseous NO2 evolution instead of liquid HNO3 evolution. Unless using a non-acid forming nitrate can help
with making the liquid form of the acid. Maybe using Ca(NO3)2 will help, as both the heating of the bisulfate/nitrate solution and the precipation of
CaSO4 will speed the reaction forward.
Also, would a solution of KNO2 and bisulfate make nitric acid? I assume the HNO2 will decompose into NO,NO2 and H2O. The NO2 will dissolve in while
the NO will gather an oxygen atom, then dissolve.
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weiming1998
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| Quote: Originally posted by Pulverulescent | Can you not just find sulphuric acid drain-cleaner?
Or boil the bejasus out of battery acid . . . ?
If you do, you'll be sooo glad you did! ()
P |
I don't know about you, but here, I think sulfuric acid drain cleaner has been phased out. I looked at Bunnings and the supermarket, and I did not
find one drain cleaner that was made of any acid, let alone sulfuric. Most were made of a sodium hydroxide solution or dirty hydroxide with aluminum
chunks in it. Perhaps acid is damaging to the pipe? There is an increase recently in the amount of "enzyme" drain cleaners recently, so I think sodium
hydroxide ones are getting phased out too. They don't trust the average Joe to deal with corrosive substances? But I found some sulfuric acid for a
good price on eBay though, $12.95US for 950mls of 98% acid.
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Pulverulescent
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Jeez weiming, your location seems bereft of any redeeming features!
Please tell us something good about the place?
P
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
A Einstein
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weiming1998
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Uh, chemical-wise, the only thing good is that obscure chemicals, like the isopropyl salt of glyphosate, benzalkonium chloride or Trichlorpyr as
butoxyethanol ester can be bought with no suspicion at all as commercial products. A good thing too, because I don't think anyone short of a
professional organic chemist is going to find uses for ANY of these.
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entropy51
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Nitric without Sulfuric
| Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 | | [I don't know about you, but here, I think sulfuric acid drain cleaner has been phased out. I looked at Bunnings and the supermarket, and I did not
find one drain cleaner that was made of any acid, let alone sulfuric. |
Fifty years ago I had very limited amounts of H2SO4 and I made HNO3 by the dry distillation of KNO3, CuSO4 and alum, but I could not remember the
stoichiometry.
I found a contemporary reference which gives the following quantities: 150 gm of KNO3, 150 gm of CuSO4, and 50 gm of KAl(SO4)2. Yield is said to be
70 gm of about 50% HNO3.
The reference states that the dry distillation was conducted at 800 C, but I believe it must be possible at lower temperatures because I used a Pyrex
retort and it was not damaged. I still have the retort.
This worked fifty years ago and I suspect it will work in the 21st century. I cannot recall my yields, but they were not trivial.
The reference is here: http://www.chemicke-listy.cz/docs/full/2002_12_05.pdf
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AirCowPeaCock
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Interesting, at a reasonable temperature for glass the reaction must proceed slowly, ought it?
BOLD
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entropy51
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My memory of
this is not too precise fifty years later, but I think it was probably an hour or two using a Bunsen flame for distillation. I probably used maybe
1/4 to 1/2 of the quantities cited in the reference.
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AirCowPeaCock
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Not bad, if you can't get H2SO4.
BOLD
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weiming1998
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If I had a retort, then I would of had no problem making nitric acid from sodium bisulfate because a pipe can easily be fitted over the retort, which
leads to some water. Or the neck of the retort could be submerged in ice water to dissolve the NO2 formed.
Anyway, my mum is worried about the air shipping of the eBay sulfuric acid being illegal in Australia. Anyone that lives in Australia/understands law
in Australia knows if it is illegal to ship small amounts of corrosive liquids internationally to Australia?
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AirCowPeaCock
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That information should be easy to find on the internet
BOLD
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Poppy
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| Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 | If I had a retort, then I would of had no problem making nitric acid from sodium bisulfate because a pipe can easily be fitted over the retort, which
leads to some water. Or the neck of the retort could be submerged in ice water to dissolve the NO2 formed.
Anyway, my mum is worried about the air shipping of the eBay sulfuric acid being illegal in Australia. Anyone that lives in Australia/understands law
in Australia knows if it is illegal to ship small amounts of corrosive liquids internationally to Australia? |
You sir no drink drinks outside Australia!
As you mentioned the retort, useing led would fit I think, at least in the closure of the lid and the condenser itself haha
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ScienceSquirrel
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| Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998 | If I had a retort, then I would of had no problem making nitric acid from sodium bisulfate because a pipe can easily be fitted over the retort, which
leads to some water. Or the neck of the retort could be submerged in ice water to dissolve the NO2 formed.
Anyway, my mum is worried about the air shipping of the eBay sulfuric acid being illegal in Australia. Anyone that lives in Australia/understands law
in Australia knows if it is illegal to ship small amounts of corrosive liquids internationally to Australia? |
There are lists of items that are prohibited from ordinary civilian air freight eg compressed gases. I suspect that corrosive liquids would be
included.
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