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Author: Subject: Possibility of sulphuric acid?
Jome
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[*] posted on 23-6-2004 at 14:55


When adding oxalic acid to saturated CuSO4 solution insoluble copper-oxalate is formed, and sulfuric acid is released. The reaction is probably a equilibrium, Cu+2 SO4-2 + (COOH)2 ----> Cu(COO)2 + H2SO4.

Perhaps this dilute acid could be made more concentrated if Cu(COO)2 is removed and more CuSO4 and oxalic is added?
Anyone with access to accurate indicators who can measure the pH of the equlilibrium?
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[*] posted on 23-6-2004 at 15:48


If you can make SO<sub>2</sub> in generous quantities but not a decent flow, maybe you could sacrifice some of your beloved NaOH to be near the source and convert it to Na<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>3</sub>. As I haven't tried it though, I don't know whether it needs to be in solution with the gas bubbled through or if it can remain as a solid, or even if both would work equally well. When you feel that you're ready for the flow, fire up your catalyst and pour on your sufficiently strong acid of choice slowly enough.



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darkflame89
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[*] posted on 24-6-2004 at 02:35


Quote:

When adding oxalic acid to saturated CuSO4 solution insoluble copper-oxalate is formed, and sulfuric acid is released. The reaction is probably a equilibrium, Cu+2 SO4-2 + (COOH)2 ----> Cu(COO)2 + H2SO4.


well, that is roughly the same of what i am trying to do; add phosphoric acid to MgSO4. The ppt magnesium phosphate can be filtered, leaving behind sulphuric acid.




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Jome
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[*] posted on 29-6-2004 at 15:09


If a flow of SO2 is created somehow, why not bubble it into H2O2-solution to get H2SO4 instantly instead of using a catalyst to turn it into SO3 and then absorbing this into water?:cool:

Or, you could electrolyse copper out of a saturated solution of copper-sulfate, and then boil this ~1,38M sulfuric acid down until its concentrated.... The advantage of using copper instead of magnesium sulfate is that copper doesent spontaneusly (sp?) react back with the acid, therefore no salt-bridge is necessary.
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Cyrus
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[*] posted on 20-3-2005 at 22:35


Ahh, arc furnaces.

Organikum, I'm just an electronics newbie, but I thought that transformers would help the efficiency of the arc; an arc draws 20 volts (from 120 volt wall socket, say), say, so the other 100 volts are wasted. If the wall socket can take only 15 amps, then the power used by the arc (VA IIRC) would be 300 "W", right? Now if the transformer transforms from 120 volts to 60 volts, then the arc still takes 20 volts, but it can draw 30 amps, right? That means the arc gets 600 "W". Now w/ the transformer the current draw will fluctuate more w/ a given amount of variation in the distance of the electrodes (which corresponds with the voltage drop across them) but that's ok to a certain extent, but if the transformer went all the way down to, say, 20 volts, then the fluctuation in current would be bad. Don't ask me to explain this one. ;) For ballast I plan to use an inductor, and shunts on the transformer. Please correct me (in reasonably simple terminology) if I"m wrong.

Lesse, I also want to use a rectifier to get DC going to the arc- it's more efficient, and only one electrode erodes significantly, meaning that the distance between the electrodes can be adjusted with a simple motor and zener diode setup. As the electrodes erode and get farther apart, the voltage across them increases, letting current though the zener diode and the motor.... I hope.

As for insulation- I was planning on using kaowool (ceramic insulation blanket) for the outer layer but I think I'll save that for a new furnace. So the refractory would be a layer of clay-based stuff (perhaps paperclay, which apparently has almost no shrinkage from when it's wet to when it's fired, meaning that it won't crack as much.) and then on the inside I'm planning to use a mix of 95% zircon and 5% kaolin (clay stuff). I'll have to experiment with the exact proportions though.... Axehandle, if you can get this stuff, I think it would work admirably.... the m.p. of zircon is 2680 deg. C. !!!! You have access to a several ton press too, right? I was thinking about making zircon/kaolin tiles in a tile press (can rent one at the ceramics place for $4 an hour), I don't know how much it will help the strength though.




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BromicAcid
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[*] posted on 8-6-2005 at 10:23


IF... someone gets a good sulfur burner design that works. I found an interesting method to produce sulfuric acid that is simple and could easily be made continuous. The premise is to bubble SO2 and oxygen into a collum filled with water (in the experiments they used 100 ml) with a small precentage of manganese sulfate. The solutions can be made readily to concentrations of about 40% where the effectiveness of this procedure slacks off. Reading though the article it looks fairly promising (but I cannot upload it because it is >1 M).

Recovery of Sulfur Dioxide as Dilute Sulfuric Acid
Raymond L. Copson, John W. Payne;
Ind. Eng. Chem.; 1933; 25(8); 909-916.




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axehandle
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[*] posted on 8-6-2005 at 11:21


BromicAcid: Could you upload it to the FTP? It sounds very interesting.
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BromicAcid
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[*] posted on 8-6-2005 at 18:23


Not a problem, uploaded it to the FTP. Also uploaded it to my website for quick access for those who don't have FTP access.

SO2manganese.pdf




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Pyridinium
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[*] posted on 8-6-2005 at 19:37


Quote:
Originally posted by Jome
If a flow of SO2 is created somehow, why not bubble it into H2O2-solution to get H2SO4 instantly instead of using a catalyst to turn it into SO3 and then absorbing this into water


That very procedure appears in an old Chemcraft manual I used to have. I think it was from about 1953. Collect SO2 from burning sulfur, deliver it into a jar containing H2O2, then cork the jar and shake it up. Only problem was, you'd get maybe 3% sulfuric when you were done (grocery store peroxide).

It was still a good little experiment. I think that manual was from a set marked "ages 10 and up". The set had basic copper carbonate (malachite), sodium bisulfate, logwood (hematoxylin), cobalt chloride, etc... quite a variety. Now those were the days of good chemistry sets.
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[*] posted on 8-6-2005 at 22:20


Very interesting experiment although curious to know how the manganese sulphate is removed after reaction. I might try this although need catalyst. Could I react managese (II) oxide with weak battery acid to produce manganese sulphate?
MnO + H2SO4 -> MnSO4 + H2O
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BromicAcid
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[*] posted on 9-6-2005 at 18:27


Many of the sulfates are for the most part insoluble in concentrated H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> I was recently reading a paper on the recovery of sulfuric acid from waste waters that contained ferrous sulfate and when the solution was heated and concentrated to ~75% the ferrous sulfate precipiated out. So it may prove that during the concentration process the manganese salt would precipitate out.



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[*] posted on 1-10-2005 at 14:25


MnO2+4HCl--->MnCl2+Cl2+2H2O. Then MnCl2 soln is filtered and the salt dried.
Now to the question: would addition of zinc or aluminium precipate Mn-metal from MnCl2 soln?

If so, making MnSO4 should be easy, just addning the obtained metallic Mn to copper sulphate.




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