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MineMan
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Alright. Very interesting. Everyday I check to see an update from you. I hope you can post more frequently because your updates are a treat
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Microtek
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So, I found another chinese paper (attached). It's about modifying HMX by dissolving it in DMSO along with triaminoguanidine nitrate, and then in
situ polymerizing the TAGN with glyoxal (this polymeric material is named TAGP in the paper). Supposedly, this traps the HMX molecules between
layers of the high nitrogen 2D polymer. Because of the pi-interactions between the TAGP layers, the HMX is forced into a less favoured conformation,
thereby introducing strain in the molecule, and also increasing the density.
The HMX to TAGP ratio can be adjusted via the amounts of TAGN and glyoxal. I aimed for the one they call HT-4 in the paper. The authors measured the
crystal density to be 2.04 g/cc for this variant. The synthesis proceeded as described in the SI, except that I would describe the colour as tan
rather than grey. This may simply be a translational error, since the colour of my material closely matches the pictures in the paper.
I then pressed the material at high pressure (about 50 MPa), which gave me a very hard and tough pellet of about 2.0 g/cc. In my first attempt, the
casing deformed from the pressure, so I had to remove the material from the casing. The pressed material is mechanically similar to hard candy, and
can be (carefully) machined if required.
In my standard plate dent test it gave 4.52 mm, corresponding to 104.8% of HMX(95)/viton(5).
Attachment: HMX-TAGP.pdf (1.2MB)
This file has been downloaded 29 times
Attachment: HMX-TAGP_SI.pdf (4.6MB)
This file has been downloaded 27 times
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MineMan
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Quote: Originally posted by Microtek  | So, I found another chinese paper (attached). It's about modifying HMX by dissolving it in DMSO along with triaminoguanidine nitrate, and then in
situ polymerizing the TAGN with glyoxal (this polymeric material is named TAGP in the paper). Supposedly, this traps the HMX molecules between
layers of the high nitrogen 2D polymer. Because of the pi-interactions between the TAGP layers, the HMX is forced into a less favoured conformation,
thereby introducing strain in the molecule, and also increasing the density.
The HMX to TAGP ratio can be adjusted via the amounts of TAGN and glyoxal. I aimed for the one they call HT-4 in the paper. The authors measured the
crystal density to be 2.04 g/cc for this variant. The synthesis proceeded as described in the SI, except that I would describe the colour as tan
rather than grey. This may simply be a translational error, since the colour of my material closely matches the pictures in the paper.
I then pressed the material at high pressure (about 50 MPa), which gave me a very hard and tough pellet of about 2.0 g/cc. In my first attempt, the
casing deformed from the pressure, so I had to remove the material from the casing. The pressed material is mechanically similar to hard candy, and
can be (carefully) machined if required.
In my standard plate dent test it gave 4.52 mm, corresponding to 104.8% of HMX(95)/viton(5). |
I read that paper as well and was very excited about it… however I thought there was so issues so as large inconsistency’s that precluded it from
being practical. You duplicating it obviously gives it a second wind.
My big question, can this be done with UZP or the other perchlorate mentioned earlier in this threat with a VOD of 9500m/s and a density of 2.0. If it
can be done with UZP
We are looking at 2.3 density.
I can’t remember the name of that other promising perchlorate you linked the paper too, but it was less sensitive than UZP
With a VOD of 9500m/s
Well done! Impressive! Still crazy the UZP has a larger dent…
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Microtek | So, I found another chinese paper (attached). It's about modifying HMX by dissolving it in DMSO along with triaminoguanidine nitrate, and then in
situ polymerizing the TAGN with glyoxal (this polymeric material is named TAGP in the paper). Supposedly, this traps the HMX molecules between
layers of the high nitrogen 2D polymer. Because of the pi-interactions between the TAGP layers, the HMX is forced into a less favoured conformation,
thereby introducing strain in the molecule, and also increasing the density.
The HMX to TAGP ratio can be adjusted via the amounts of TAGN and glyoxal. I aimed for the one they call HT-4 in the paper. The authors measured the
crystal density to be 2.04 g/cc for this variant. The synthesis proceeded as described in the SI, except that I would describe the colour as tan
rather than grey. This may simply be a translational error, since the colour of my material closely matches the pictures in the paper.
I then pressed the material at high pressure (about 50 MPa), which gave me a very hard and tough pellet of about 2.0 g/cc. In my first attempt, the
casing deformed from the pressure, so I had to remove the material from the casing. The pressed material is mechanically similar to hard candy, and
can be (carefully) machined if required.
In my standard plate dent test it gave 4.52 mm, corresponding to 104.8% of HMX(95)/viton(5). |
How did you prepare and cure the HMX Viton? I have searched for uncured viton but have not been able to find any… there are many many grades of
fluroelastomers and viton… which one did you use?
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Microtek
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A kind member on this forum had obtained a large amount of unvulcanized Viton and donated some to me. It is very easy to use since it is quite soluble
in acetone, so I just added 5 parts Viton and 95 parts HMX to enough acetone to dissolve the Viton. Then evaporated the solvent while stirring. When
it contains just a trace of acetone, it presses very well.
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Microtek
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Regarding the idea of using the TAGP (triaminoguanidine polymer) to modify UZP, I did consider it, and this is what I have come up with:
If UZP is sufficiently soluble in DMSO, then we have to find an anti-solvent which can precipitate the UZP-TAGP material. In the chinese paper they
use water, but that won't work with UZP. Maybe an alcohol or a non-polar solvent such as gasoline could work.
If it can be made to work, the question remains what effect it will have on the properties of UZP. UZP is inherently different from HMX in that it is
a salt, and I am not sure what that will do in this system. The reason that the density of HMX is enhanced is that normal HMX is an eight-membered
ring which, due to the bond angles in the molecule, can't be packed very closely (the "ring" is kinked). The TAGP layers act by squeezing the
molecule, thus flattening it to a degree, which allows it to pack qin more dense crystals (according to the paper).
UZP is a five-membered ring system which is planar, so I don't think we will see much enhancement of the density, but we won't know for sure until we
try.
Also, if the TAGP-system can work as an anti-hygroscopic barrier, that would easily be worth it. If the sensitivity is decreased, even more so.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Microtek | Regarding the idea of using the TAGP (triaminoguanidine polymer) to modify UZP, I did consider it, and this is what I have come up with:
If UZP is sufficiently soluble in DMSO, then we have to find an anti-solvent which can precipitate the UZP-TAGP material. In the chinese paper they
use water, but that won't work with UZP. Maybe an alcohol or a non-polar solvent such as gasoline could work.
If it can be made to work, the question remains what effect it will have on the properties of UZP. UZP is inherently different from HMX in that it is
a salt, and I am not sure what that will do in this system. The reason that the density of HMX is enhanced is that normal HMX is an eight-membered
ring which, due to the bond angles in the molecule, can't be packed very closely (the "ring" is kinked). The TAGP layers act by squeezing the
molecule, thus flattening it to a degree, which allows it to pack qin more dense crystals (according to the paper).
UZP is a five-membered ring system which is planar, so I don't think we will see much enhancement of the density, but we won't know for sure until we
try.
Also, if the TAGP-system can work as an anti-hygroscopic barrier, that would easily be worth it. If the sensitivity is decreased, even more so.
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I see! Would there be any other way to apply inter molecular pressure to increase the crystal density?
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Microtek
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None that I can think of just now.
Some people have speculated that it might be possible to nest one energetic molecule inside another. This kind of structure can be seen in zeolites,
and there was a report of a composite of nanoporous silicon and liquid oxygen some years ago. It was reportedly very powerful, but of course
completely impractical. The problem with experimenting with this kind of thing from my perspective, is that I have no access to the required
analytical equipment, so I would be shooting in the dark.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Microtek | None that I can think of just now.
Some people have speculated that it might be possible to nest one energetic molecule inside another. This kind of structure can be seen in zeolites,
and there was a report of a composite of nanoporous silicon and liquid oxygen some years ago. It was reportedly very powerful, but of course
completely impractical. The problem with experimenting with this kind of thing from my perspective, is that I have no access to the required
analytical equipment, so I would be shooting in the dark. |
The silicon and liquid oxygen was a sensational headline in my opinion. Some Russian guy claimed CL-20 type power but… look at the reaction. SiO2 is
the product. That does not fit detonation theory of being a good explosive.
Any updates with the UZP or higher concentrations like the H7 with more TAG binder? Microtek man, your one of the only ones keeping this place alive.
We love your updates. I do. If you get this, successfully I will build a shrine of you. Ok
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Microtek
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I did some experiments with UZP and DMSO to determine the viability of using in situ synthesized TAG-polymer to improve some of the properties of UZP.
It seems that DMSO does dissolve UZP, forming a clear solution. However, when I tried reprecipitating it by adding an antisolvent (isopropanol), only
unprotonated urazine was recovered. I also tried detergent gasoline (a mixture of alkanes), but it doesn't mix with DMSO. The possibility remains
that the presence of TAGP might change this behavior, but I'm not very hopeful.
I also think it likely that the glyoxal might react with the amino group of urazine which would alter the composition of the polymer. This could be a
good or a bad thing.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Microtek | I did some experiments with UZP and DMSO to determine the viability of using in situ synthesized TAG-polymer to improve some of the properties of UZP.
It seems that DMSO does dissolve UZP, forming a clear solution. However, when I tried reprecipitating it by adding an antisolvent (isopropanol), only
unprotonated urazine was recovered. I also tried detergent gasoline (a mixture of alkanes), but it doesn't mix with DMSO. The possibility remains
that the presence of TAGP might change this behavior, but I'm not very hopeful.
I also think it likely that the glyoxal might react with the amino group of urazine which would alter the composition of the polymer. This could be a
good or a bad thing. |
Ahh. Darn!
Would you be willing to try a debt test on the H-7… the one that contains more TAGP?
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Microtek
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Yes, I plan on doing that at some point. I may need to prepare some more HMX first though.
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MineMan
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Microtek any updates? Why not try H-7 with K6… easier and more powerful than HMx
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Microtek
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I am exploring some ideas with the TAGP system. I tried preparing a TAGP-UZP material using an aqueous system and the simply heating to drive the
water off. It seemed to work, but of course, I don't know if the same kind of intercalated compound was formed. The product was much less sensitive to
impact, but unfortunately still quite hygroscopic. I didn't test energetic properties, and now I've run out of urazine. In the mean time, I'm working
on something else which may have some potential. I will reveal more when I have something to report.
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MineMan
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| Quote: Originally posted by Microtek | | I am exploring some ideas with the TAGP system. I tried preparing a TAGP-UZP material using an aqueous system and the simply heating to drive the
water off. It seemed to work, but of course, I don't know if the same kind of intercalated compound was formed. The product was much less sensitive to
impact, but unfortunately still quite hygroscopic. I didn't test energetic properties, and now I've run out of urazine. In the mean time, I'm working
on something else which may have some potential. I will reveal more when I have something to report. |
Ok microtek. Amazing it worked with the UZP. Any ideas on density? I am curious what your current project is!
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