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Author: Subject: Ellement Collecting: finding/synthesizing
niertap
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[*] posted on 11-4-2012 at 17:12
Ellement Collecting: finding/synthesizing


A discussion of synthesizing and finding the elements.

On my list of current ideas are reducing the following to their elemental form. Ba(NO3)2, Sr(NO3)2, ammonium molybdenate, and ammonium metavandate.


What all has everyone tried or collected?




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Ramblesthegoat
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[*] posted on 11-4-2012 at 18:24


Well, you can get Sr and Ba through electrolysis, but the other chemicals you mentioned might be harder. Just convert the nitrates into halides, melt down the chemicals and pass a strong current through them with non reactive electrodes ,most people use carbon (graphite).
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elementcollector1
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[*] posted on 11-4-2012 at 20:58


Expect problems with carbon electrodes. They have a high resistance, so you might need to pump more current through them than the cell's efficiency level. A great how-to on electrolysis (of sorts) can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9xS9t-KMpc
I wrote an 80+-page book on collecting elements, so if you have questions, just ask.
What are your plans for the ammonium metavanadate, and how did you obtain it?




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weiming1998
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[*] posted on 11-4-2012 at 21:33


You can make vanadium using ammonium metavandate by first heating it to about 200 degrees celsius, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanadium(V)_oxide) forming V2O5, then make the metal through thermite with aluminum/magnesium powder.

Molybdenum can be made by acidifying the ammonium molybdenate, extracting the oxide formed, then making the metal through thermite (again).
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Hexavalent
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[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 00:45


Ammonium metavanadate IIRC is very expensive, and V2O5 is actually quite cheap from pottery suppliers and I think I've seen it a few times on eBay - so if I were you, I'd start there and conserve your supply of the former.

Don't forget displacement reactions - you'll have to be pretty selective for which elements to extract using this method, but it can work a treat for many of them. Reductions are also a possibility if you have the right gear, especially for some of the more reactive metals such as potassium, perhaps sodium, maybe even some of the alkali earths as well, as was discussed for a long time on this board and the German equivalent. NurdRage made a video of it on his YouTube channel, so for a visual demo check him out.





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a_bab
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[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 00:52


1. When dealing with elements we say "isolating" rather then "synthesizing" unless you are either God or work in the radiochemistry.
2. Thermite is not the answer as it may seem; V will be very impure (about 50% IIRC) while Mo can be recovered from lightbulbs - do your homework. Hint: it's not the filament.

Sr and Ba can be reasonably obtained with Ca reduction, however some special aparatuys must be built. Ba is tough to get purer then 90%. Brauer has good descriptions of the processes.


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Hexavalent
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[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 01:04


With regards to the molybdenum, to be slightly more helpful than a_bab, molybdenum is used to make support wires for the filaments.



In this diagram, I think the Mo is in position 6.




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MrHomeScientist
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[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 10:52


Hexavalent, where is that diagram from? I'm interested to know what all the other numbers refer to. Lightbulbs are a surprisingly rich source for the element collector - I've gotten 3 from them so far: argon (2), tungsten (3), and molybdenum (6).
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elementcollector1
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[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 15:21


Not counting the special krypton, xenon, and mercury types.
Furthermore, I prefer to take barium out of a vacuum tube, they use it as the 'getter'.




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thethule
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[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 18:11


Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  

I wrote an 80+-page book on collecting elements, so if you have questions, just ask.


Can i ask, where one could go about having a look/buying this book?


Cheers

Marc
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[*] posted on 14-4-2012 at 10:17


i used to have 74 of the 90+ elements in little jars and i am currently working on a phosphorus (white and red ) i know about the big topic!
but i be glad to help you as well as reading that 80 page ! sounds very interesting!




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Hexavalent
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[*] posted on 14-4-2012 at 10:27


mrhomescientist, I think the image was from the Wikipedia page for Incadenscent light bulbs . . .here is the full list of what the numbers mean;




1. Outline of Glass bulb
2. Low pressure inert gas (argon, nitrogen, krypton, xenon)
3. Tungsten filament
4. Contact wire (goes out of stem)
5. Contact wire (goes into stem)
6. Support wires (one end embedded in stem; conduct no current)
7. Stem (glass mount)
8. Contact wire (goes out of stem)
9. Cap (sleeve)
10. Insulation (vitrite)
11. Electrical contact




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barley81
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[*] posted on 14-4-2012 at 14:30


Lamp autopsy:
http://www.teralab.co.uk/Glass_Blowing/Lamp_Autopsy/Lamp_Aut...
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[*] posted on 14-4-2012 at 15:13


Here is a paper that shows simple methods of making oxygen and chlorine from bleaching powder. The latter is catalytically decomposed to oxygen by cobalt oxide, and also oxidizes hydrochloric acid to chlorine. Clear instructions are given and simple equipment is used.

Attachment: krauskopf1935.pdf (1.5MB)
This file has been downloaded 711 times

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mycotheologist
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[*] posted on 14-4-2012 at 16:11


I don't have an element collection but theres a few elements I want to obtain because they are so mysterious to me. One is yttrium. I have never heard anything about this element. Another one is astatine. Its a mysterious halogen that I've never heard anything about. I'm fascinated by promethium because all the pictures I've seen show it as a glowing green substance but I stay away from radioactive substances for obvious reasons. I'm guessing they can be safely stored in the home lab in the right container though.
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[*] posted on 14-4-2012 at 17:17


Quote: Originally posted by elementcollector1  
Not counting the special krypton, xenon, and mercury types.
Furthermore, I prefer to take barium out of a vacuum tube, they use it as the 'getter'.
Don't use any of the early tubes..look for ones made during and after the 60's for Barium. Kindly avoid "harvesting" certain tubes though: 6T5, 1629, 6E5..Eye tubes mostly.Those are not often made anymore and I only know of 5 factories making ANY eye tubes at all...and those have a Magnesium getter more often than not. Loktal Tubes are also not so good for Barium as far as I know. Plenty of Molybdenum in them though: a lot of the grid wires where made from it. if you want to scrape off the white emitter you might even get Strontium from old tubes.
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neptunium
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[*] posted on 15-4-2012 at 18:41


Quote: Originally posted by mycotheologist  
One is yttrium. I have never heard anything about this element. Another one is astatine. Its a mysterious halogen that I've never heard anything about. I'm fascinated by promethium


Promethium and Technetium are very rare elements because they do not have any stable isotopes some of them are long lived and can be stored safely (like uranium) some other isotopes are too radioactive and glow (like radium)
Technetium is often used as a Xray source in portable radiography set up.

Astatine has been isolated in the mg quantity but never really found any industrial or medical applications .

Yttrium can be found in a few minerals some old TV tube contained the phosphate for the color red. Y is not as rare as the others though






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a_bab
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[*] posted on 16-4-2012 at 00:56


"Astatine has been isolated in the mg quantity " - you meant in micrograms (μg) amounts.

Besides it is made rather then isolated. One of the little cases where an element is created.

[Edited on 16-4-2012 by a_bab]
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neptunium
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[*] posted on 16-4-2012 at 05:57


yes thats correct i meant ug (cant find the micro sign...)
by neutron capture of Bi209 we get At211 with a half life of 7.2 hours..




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watson.fawkes
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[*] posted on 16-4-2012 at 13:39


Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
yes thats correct i meant ug (cant find the micro sign...)
by neutron capture of Bi209 we get At211 with a half life of 7.2 hours..
To make the symbol "μ", type "μ" (that's ampersand-"m"-"u"-semicolon) in the editor. If you ever want to see how somebody wrote something, just start to reply to the post and you'll see the raw markup in the editor. (Remember not to reply if that's all you're doing.)
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elementcollector1
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[*] posted on 21-4-2012 at 06:19


I'm back! :D
@Funkerman23, I had no idea. I assumed that all tubes in production were barium tubes.
@thethule and neptunium: Attached, and hopefully readable.

Attachment: Getting the Elements.docx (92kB)
This file has been downloaded 1698 times





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