Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1    3  ..  7
Author: Subject: cheddite
Vikascoder
National Hazard
****




Posts: 309
Registered: 28-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-4-2012 at 23:07
cheddite


hello friends
on searching net i found a pdf file which stated that generally we make cheddite explosive bu potassium chlorate and petroleum jelly but in this pdf file i read that it can be substituted by potassium permanganate also. is it true?

Attachment: Blasting Explosives 1883 English Patent 5624.pdf (99kB)
This file has been downloaded 918 times

[Edited on 12-4-2012 by Vikascoder]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fossil
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 131
Registered: 4-4-2012
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 06:21


In theory it should work since potassium permanganate is a very powerful oxidizer. I would suggest you first try it first in a small quantity, using the same ratio as cheddite type O, which i believe is 9:1, and see how that goes. I have never tried making cheddite using potassium permanganate, but i have made cheddite type O with potassium chlorate.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Vikascoder
National Hazard
****




Posts: 309
Registered: 28-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 06:37


ya i used the same ratio 9:1 potassium permangante to petroleum jelly i tried to burn . it burned pretty nice with a crackin sound . i making hmtd to detonate it
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2879
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 11:41


KMnO4 or MnO2 are catalyst for a faster realeasing of O2 out of KClO3 (or NaClO3)...at lower temperatures...this is how O2 was produced in the past for lab demos without risks.

So you may even think to a mix of traces of KMnO4 or MnO2 within your chlorate mix in a way to improve sensitivity.

Note that usually they use nitrobenzene or nitrated hydrocarbons...aside the fuel.
I personnaly used nitrated naphtaline in my KClO3 mixes.





PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
caterpillar
National Hazard
****




Posts: 335
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 12:28


Mixtures with KClO3 are much more powerful than their analogues with KMnO4. The last compound contents less active oxygen. I think, mixtures of KClO3 with reducing agents are sensitive enough, therefore one has to think how decrease their sensitivity, but not increase.



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 15:41


Many cheddite mixes, like ones employing wax or petroleum jelly are not very sensitive at all, and it takes a well made, hefty cap or a booster to get them moving, IIRC.



U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
497
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: HSbF6

[*] posted on 12-4-2012 at 16:26


Sorry for being a little OT.

A well mixed combination frozen N2O4 crystals in cold gelled kerosene should be extremely insensitive if kept frozen. When ready to use, place it in position, let it thaw and it should become a cap sensitive homogeneous liquid with properties between PGDN and NG. N2O4 isn't too hard to make from OTC materials. If frozen immediately after production the toxicity is not a major problem with normal precautions (being outside!)




A word to the wise: NEUROFEEDBACK

http://citizenworks.org/corp/dg/s2r1.pdf
http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/mg21228354.500-re...
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-414-hyperinflation-spe...

"To expose a 15 Trillion dollar ripoff of the American people by the stockholders of the 1000 largest corporations over the last 100 years will be a tall order of business."
Buckminster Fuller

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
Albert Einstein
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2879
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 01:13


Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
Many cheddite mixes, like ones employing wax or petroleum jelly are not very sensitive at all, and it takes a well made, hefty cap or a booster to get them moving, IIRC.

You got it :) that is why I proposed an alternative mix of KClO3 and little KMnO4 to ensure better sensitivity to det-caps.




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2879
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 01:17


Quote: Originally posted by 497  
Sorry for being a little OT.

A well mixed combination frozen N2O4 crystals in cold gelled kerosene should be extremely insensitive if kept frozen. When ready to use, place it in position, let it thaw and it should become a cap sensitive homogeneous liquid with properties between PGDN and NG. N2O4 isn't too hard to make from OTC materials. If frozen immediately after production the toxicity is not a major problem with normal precautions (being outside!)

More than an little Of Topic ;) ... you speak about panclastites...here the subject is cheddites.
But anyway what you wrote is true :D and valuable info. Sole problem is the dangerousity of panclastites vs cheddites towards shock or heat.




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Vikascoder
National Hazard
****




Posts: 309
Registered: 28-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 01:29


if i am not wrong 1.5 grams of hmtd without booster can easily detonate cheddites i.e potassium chlorate and petroleum jelly. if this is correct i am going to use 1.5 grams of hmtd to check whethere potassium permangante and paraffin wax can be detonated by it or not.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bquirky
National Hazard
****




Posts: 316
Registered: 22-10-2008
Location: Perth Western Australia
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 02:44


cheddite: sounds like its an explosive made from cheese :)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Pulverulescent
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 792
Registered: 31-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: Torn between two monikers ─ "hissingnoise" and the present incarnation!

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 02:48


Quote:
Sole problem is the dangerousity of panclastites vs cheddites towards shock or heat.

Very difficult to prepare ─ too dangerous to handle!
They're best avoided . . .




"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"

A Einstein
View user's profile View All Posts By User
PHILOU Zrealone
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2879
Registered: 20-5-2002
Location: Brussel
Member Is Offline

Mood: Bis-diazo-dinitro-hydroquinonic

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 05:53


Quote: Originally posted by bquirky  
cheddite: sounds like its an explosive made from cheese :)

Let me guess ... Cheddar :) not a french cheese at all...

Cheddite explosive name comes from the name of the village of Chedde in France....:cool:




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Vikascoder
National Hazard
****




Posts: 309
Registered: 28-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 07:08


scientists leave the name where it is derived from or what it is in name :P please tell about potassium permangante substitution for potassium chlorate .
View user's profile View All Posts By User
497
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: HSbF6

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 13:20


Quote:
you speak about panclastites


I know.. I guess I figured being old, French and ending in "ite" was enough :P.

Quote:
Very difficult to prepare ─ too dangerous to handle! They're best avoided . . .


Not very difficult to prepare if done creatively. No nitrations to run away, no acids at all in fact. Yes, if simply mixed at stoiciometric ratios, the sensitivity can be high. If you read the patents you will find that nonstoiciometric ratios actually become quite insensitive. Regardless of sensitivity, a creative way to remotely mix the binary components in the field would eliminate the handling issues. N2O4 can be made quite cheap, but I admit that would only be a factor if you were using larger quantities.

As for remote mixing, another way to do it: pour a few grams of baking soda into a bucket (shaped charge) containing kerosene or xylene, then pour in appropriate amount of frozen N2O4, place cap, and walk away. At no point would you have been in any danger of accidental detonation. Once you are far away, the N2O4 will finish melting. As the liquid sinks to the bottom it will react with the baking soda, causing bubbles that will effictively mix the two components.

Can you use cheddites in shaped charges? Cause N2O4+toluene is known to be nearly equivalent to NG...

[Edited on 13-4-2012 by 497]




A word to the wise: NEUROFEEDBACK

http://citizenworks.org/corp/dg/s2r1.pdf
http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/article/mg21228354.500-re...
http://www.shadowstats.com/article/no-414-hyperinflation-spe...

"To expose a 15 Trillion dollar ripoff of the American people by the stockholders of the 1000 largest corporations over the last 100 years will be a tall order of business."
Buckminster Fuller

"No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
Albert Einstein
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 19:14


Cheddites are probable pretty slow for most shaped charges. IIRC, a VOD of ~ 5000mps is desirable, at least for ESPs. I don't think most chlorate compositions can obtain this speed. A whole lot of blasting power though. As far a permanganate as the oxidizer, I don't imagine that it will be to much less sensitive, as potassium permanganate is very reactive, but the performance will surely suffer do to the reduced oxidizing power of KMnO<sub>4</sub>. The ratios of fuel to oxidizer will also have to be adjusted I imagine.

Vikascoder, did you get around to doing your science experiment? If so, I'm interested to hear you report the results and the compositional ratios. Also, if you have KClO<sub>3</sub> could you run a control to see if your initiation is effective with the standard cheddite type O? Also any other variable like, was the peroxide loose or pressed, was the charge confined, etc. Be safe.

PS. Sorry if asking this skews to practicality. I am just interested as I have always thought detonable chlorate compositions where an interesting topic.



Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by 497  
Sorry for being a little OT.

A well mixed combination frozen N2O4 crystals in cold gelled kerosene should be extremely insensitive if kept frozen. When ready to use, place it in position, let it thaw and it should become a cap sensitive homogeneous liquid with properties between PGDN and NG. N2O4 isn't too hard to make from OTC materials. If frozen immediately after production the toxicity is not a major problem with normal precautions (being outside!)

More than an little Of Topic ;) ... you speak about panclastites...here the subject is cheddites.
But anyway what you wrote is true :D and valuable info. Sole problem is the dangerousity of panclastites vs cheddites towards shock or heat.



Sounds scary as hell, but very interesting. Pretty fast for a non-molecular energetic. (oxidizer/fuel composition).

Quote:

Panclastites are a class of Sprengel explosives...

"During World War I, due to shortages of other explosives, French used some panclastite-class mixtures, which they called anilites, in small aircraft bombs. The mixing of the chemicals was triggered by airflow spinning a propeller on the nose of the bomb after it was dropped, mixing the previously separated chemicals inside. The resulting mixture was so sensitive the bombs did not need a fuze to explode on impact.

In the 1880s, Germans were testing torpedoes with panclastite warhead. Carbon disulfide and nitrogen tetroxide were stored in separate glass compartments, which were broken when the torpedo was launched and the chemicals mixed, and later were detonated by a contact fuse." ~ Wikipedia


[Edited on 14-4-2012 by Bot0nist]




U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Vikascoder
National Hazard
****




Posts: 309
Registered: 28-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 21:32


Bot0inst , these days i am little busy with some other project but for sure till 20th of april i will do this experiment and i will post my result . So please wait a little .
View user's profile View All Posts By User
caterpillar
National Hazard
****




Posts: 335
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 13-4-2012 at 21:58


One thing about sd. just came to my mind. These explosives hardly could be detected- they may content no nitrogen at all and have no smell.



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Vikascoder
National Hazard
****




Posts: 309
Registered: 28-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 14-4-2012 at 05:41


Quote: Originally posted by caterpillar  
One thing about sd. just came to my mind. These explosives hardly could be detected- they may content no nitrogen at all and have no smell.


though cheddite cant be detected but a person will need a detonator for detonating it .in my opinion the person will be caught because his detonating primary explosive would be containing nitrogen .he may use other detonators also but generally detonator which do not contain nitrogen are unstable and very sensitive like acetone peroxide, cuprous acetyalide.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 14-4-2012 at 10:18


Who's worried about smuggling it? Damn guys.

I wonder if compositions employing nitro aromatics and similar fuels would compare to the sensitivity of the types that use more inert, but still energy rich fuels like paraffin and such. I imagine that the latter would be less sensitive. Pure speculation though. Going to try some literature searches when back at me computer. On my phone.




U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
caterpillar
National Hazard
****




Posts: 335
Registered: 8-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 14-4-2012 at 20:14


Mixtures with KClO4 are much safer than their analogues with KClO3, but preparation of KClO4 is more problematic.



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User
Vikascoder
National Hazard
****




Posts: 309
Registered: 28-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 14-4-2012 at 23:18


Potassium perchlorate mixtures are even more difficult to detonate then chlorate and also it is very difficult to make as compared to potassium chlorate.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Fossil
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 131
Registered: 4-4-2012
Location: Canada
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 15-4-2012 at 07:56


Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
Potassium perchlorate mixtures are even more difficult to detonate then chlorate and also it is very difficult to make as compared to potassium chlorate.


Perchlorate mixes are not hard to set off at all. Take a look at 7:3 flash powder or even 2:1 flash powder.

Edit: quote messed up

[Edited on 2012-4-15 by Fossil]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 15-4-2012 at 08:12


I believe they mean detonate with explosive shock, not ignite flash powder. While having more available oxygen, perchlorate is less reactive than chlorate. This would likely result in a composition that is much less sensitive, maybe even not cap sensitive at all.



U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Vikascoder
National Hazard
****




Posts: 309
Registered: 28-1-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 15-4-2012 at 08:31


Quote: Originally posted by Fossil  
Quote: Originally posted by Vikascoder  
Potassium perchlorate mixtures are even more difficult to detonate then chlorate and also it is very difficult to make as compared to potassium chlorate.


Perchlorate mixes are not hard to set off at all. Take a look at 7:3 flash powder or even 2:1 flash powder.

Edit: quote messed up

[Edited on 2012-4-15 by Fossil]
here we are talking to detonate the cheddites not deflagrate the flash powder . Do you know that perchlorate is preferred because it is less sensitive than chlorate and here we are working on the sensitivity not just simply burning. Setting off means detonating not simply burning.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1    3  ..  7

  Go To Top