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Rosco Bodine
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Solvent MEK is usually available along with
acetone , toluene and other solvents at
boating and marine supply businesses that carry fiberglass fabric and resins .
Water clear muriatic acid free of iron is
a swimming pool supply item . If sulfuric
is tried as a substitute , the electrolyte
grade of sulfuric is by necessity an exceptionally pure grade , though diluted
form of sulfuric . Unused battery electrolyte has to be extremely pure to
prevent the plates of a battery from being
poisoned or corroded and decreasing the
battery life . So battery electrolyte is
very near or at pharmaceutical grade purity .
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fatkangaroo
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OK got some new chems. They can be viewed at the same place as the last lot under bbb. I will put some more up later and will make sure I good picture
of the layers when they appear.
I am using the red stuff as I cant get the clear in my area, and I believe its not the problem.
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fatkangaroo
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Its has been done. All the photos are up.
Well it all went a little different this time.
The new acid was a lot cleaner than the diggers brand. The temp shot right up to 30.C the second the acid hit the mix, once it was cooled back to 10.C
all further additions went smoothly. Also I got a clear layer this time instead of a dark red layer and a pink layer.
Now I dont want to go jumping to conclusions, so what are the "scientific" methods of testing compositions? I usually go for the hammer
smash and skewer drop, but any other suggestions are welcome.
I have done the skewer test with the new stuff. I am afraid to say its pretty much the same as the last lot . A little less sensitive. It did not go off when dropped from six feet, any higher and the same sad story. When I
threw the skewer it went off every single time. I didnt throw it very hard, about the same amount of power you would use to throw a dart. My AP
often clumps together into little rocks and I have thrown them so hard at the concrete that they break up into powder again and no explosion. I have
thrown them straight up about 10 feet and watched them hit the ground again without explosion. So this is way more sensitive. I can not get it to do
the nice fireball, its snap crackle POP.
I am going to try with clear stuff. I have found some in a plumbing supply, its a bit of a hike out to the other end of town but it has to be done.
After changing containers I had somewhat different experence to the last time. Once the peroxides had settled in the new container there was another
layer of acid but this time the other way around. AP/MEKP on top acid on bottom. I was very happy about this as I now have a reasonably acid free
mixed peroxide. I am now testing the acid free mix and I can say it no longer explodes from being dropped . Hooray for me. I now think acid-spent peroxide removal has alot to do with the sensitiveness of the final product. I
know my previous mixes had left over acid as I could see it. I could not remove it without losing product and I did not think it mattered. I believe
that there is some acetone or something still in the mix as it has not thickened up. So I will be leaving it with the lid off to evapourate the ???.
Then comes the fun part
[Edited on 10-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]
[Edited on 10-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]
[Edited on 10-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]
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Rosco Bodine
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If you are getting the product as an upper layer and the product is impure ,
cloudy , not a clean separation from the
spent peroxide and acid , then you are
needing to increase your amount of acetone in relation to MEK .
MEKP is the low density product which will
also contain a fair bit of residual moisture
and acidity , unless a lot of AP is dissolved in the MEKP , which drives out the residual moisture and acidity because the AP is much more soluble in
the MEKP than is the moisture or acid . AP is also more
dense and makes the AP / MEKP solution
precipitate as the lower layer . The cold
AP / MEKP should be almost completely clear and fairly viscous when cold , not as thick as honey , but syrupy .
Everything you are reporting tends to indicate you are making a mixture too rich in MEKP and too lean in AP .
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fatkangaroo
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First it was the upper layer that needed removing like the photo. The MEKP/AP is the red stuff on the bottom. Then I removed as much as possible with
the baster. I used 50%MEK and 50% acetone. The measurments 125ml of each.There was still about a 10mL or 20 that I could not get to. I decided to swap
to a thinner jar to see what the layers looked like. When I poured it looked like a hundreds off bubbles trapped inside the mix. When it settled the
thats when the change happened. The mix was opposite. I removed the good layer and thats whats I have now.
[Edited on 10-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]
[Edited on 10-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]
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fatkangaroo
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Added some more photos. They are in the same folder as the others under ccc.
The first is a vitamin bottle with straight MEKP/AP. The other is a KNO3/MEKP/AP. It worked very nicely. The last is a man hole cover.
In my honest opinion this stuff is not suitible for pratical use. As a primary its to sensitive. Once its mixed with AN or PN it seems to be OK. It
is still to "experimental" for me to trust at this stage. I will be sticking with the tried and true peroxides. It is my view that this
stuff should be used by people with experience with the other peroxides. Backpackers should stay away. I played with these mixed peroxides enough to
not want to play with them again.
Seeing that I still have plenty of chems and time on my hands I have decided to press on. I have not tested the original MEKP. I am going to make some
normal MEKP and some fresh MEKP/AP and do some of my crude tests. Going to test them side by side to gauge the differences between the two fluids.
Thats what I really want to know, if the MEKP/AP mix is the same sensitivity wise as regular MEKP. I really should have done this to start with.
Whoops.
[Edited on 12-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]
[Edited on 12-4-2005 by fatkangaroo]
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fatkangaroo
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Got around to making MEKP and some MEK/AP at the same time using the same chems. The main differences that I could notice was the MEKP is thicker than
the MEKP/AP, the MEKP is much a darker red. Did the skewer drop test and they were not that different, the MEKP/AP being a little more sensitive. One
thing that was a little strange when I weighed 5ml of the MEKP and 5ml of MEKP/AP using a syringe they both were 5 grams? My scale does not go to
points so Im not exactly sure.
Well looks like I was wrong about the MEKP/AP is not to bad, I just got a little ahead of myself there. Those skewer tests made me get all worked up
when I now think they dont prove anything. Plus I had never worked with liquid explosive before and I was expecting something different. I got
confused trying to understand why I could drop AP but not drop the MEKP/AP. I still dont know why, I thought the liquid "shapeshifted" and
was desensitized to impact.
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Pyro_boy
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solid MEKP?
I just made a batch of MEKP but the bottom layer is completely solid! I've never seen this before...
No acetone added...
humm, what form is it?
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mars
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is anhydrous dimeric mekp the same with mekp hardener used as catalysts or initiators for resins?thanks
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HOHOLO
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In fact MEKPO is very comment in my city, we can buy it easily and very cheap.
Anyway,I don't like MEKPO (or MEKP, the same thing).......
It's smell make me sick....once you got something on your hand, that nice smell will follow you more than 3 days although you keep on washing
them.....
Furthermore, It is not powerful...if compare with real explosive... ....
If I choose, liquid explosive, I choose NG/EADU but not MEKPO........
but, I suggest that mix it with Nitrostarch may have good result.
Chemisty student
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mars
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do you guys know how to prepare the monomeric kind? thanks
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Waffles
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Quick question for anyone who might know what the hell they are doing...I have a heap of MEKP that I want to get rid of in an enjoyable and impressive
manner. I was wondering about the combination of a liquid organic peroxides such as this and metal- my plan was to put the explosive inside a steel
container and insert my usual aluminum tube detonator (which I fill with primary on the spot, although must epoxy in the container ahead of time). I'm
not so worried about MEKP and aluminum, since Al2O3 skin is usually a pretty good barrier for any real reaction taking place, but is it sane at all to
put the MEKP inside a sealed steel container? The shrapnel potential scares the bejeezus out of me. I would be filling it with the MEKP no more than
maybe 8 hours before detonation, which is a relatively short time compared to the shelf life of a lot of this stuff, but if the peroxide/steel
reaction is immediate, it is WAY too long...
I was thinking maybe I should varnish the inside of the container first (pour the varnish in, shake it around, pour it out, and let the thing dry
under a lamp) using either clear nail polish or polyurethane, but would the MEKP dissolve these?
Is this just a horrible idea in general? I have tupperware that I can use to contain it, but I don't think it would detonate anywhere near as
efficiently without the containment of the rigid steel container (which is MEANT to be pressurized internally). Also, would the MEKP possibly dissolve
the tupperware? I've never used this stuff in large amounts, and the information on what it dissolves/reacts with isn't great (reacts with metal in
general, dissolves materials that MEK dissolves?)
[Edited on 30-12-2006 by iamthewaffler]
\"…\'tis man\'s perdition to be safe, when for the truth he ought to die.\"
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Boomer
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I would forget this. Period. Or look here: http://nobombs.net/brucel/explosivegraphics.html
Soak it into AN and use a plastic container, it won't make much of a difference with such a sensitive material.
BTW putting the cap in the main charge, THEN filling it with a primary defeats the whole purpose of using a separate cap. I shit myself when pressing
the primary on top of a one-gram base charge in the cap. And this is WITH shielding. Just thinking of what you plan makes me shudder. Sounds like
bungee jumping with the rubber rope cut 'only' half way through....
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photoguy
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Yikes! MEKP is extremely reactive material and sensitive to shock and friction. Bottom line - MEKP is extremely dangerous - highly reactive, cancer
causing agent that can auto detonate. Mixing nitrates with MEKP can make the material slightly more predicatable - but still ANY compression of the
material is not recommended!
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~TCM~
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I know this is an old thread, but I read it entirely and cannot find the exact info I want.
All I want to know is, is it safe to store MEKP in a glass container for say a few weeks.
I will set you to burn
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Antwain
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Well, I just read the last page and with words like "sensitive" and "auto detonate" I think the answer would be no. Of course, I would never make it
in the first place
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Totenkov
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MEKP is fine to be stored for up to about 3 months. MEKP is one of my favourites to fool around with and let soak into a piece of wood. etc. be sure
to store it in glass in a dark, cool place. MEKP stores very well. In my experiece, if you treat primaries with respect and don't throw them around
you'll be fine.
Be sure to neutralize any remaining acid and wash well with distilled water, thats it.
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zeppelin69
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In my experince, MEKP really isn't has horrible as the above posts make it out to be. In fact, I find it fairly insensitive to shock (not on the same
level as TNT by any means , but for a primary I feel very safe with it). My only
complaints are that it does bleach skin, but if your wearing gloves like you're supposed to, it isnt a problem.
I will also second that it is best used as an "ammonium dynamite".
[Edited on 19-10-2007 by zeppelin69]
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~TCM~
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Thanks, Totenkov, yes it was in a cool dark place and I had no probs.
It is now one of my favourite primarys to as you can use saw dust as the filler, which you can 100% safely compress the hell out of and then just soak
the MEKP into it, when using it alone as a primary.
And zeppelin69 I also soaked some into some ammonium nitrate, at the ratio of 1.1ml MEKP/10 grams NH4NO3. This was detonated with a HMTD cap and it
was very impressive.
Also I just wanted to add that it does make a big difference in the quality of the product if you take the time to thoroughly clean it up as Totenkov
said. My method takes nearly three days from the start of the reaction to the finished product, including washing, neutralizing and evaporating all
traces of MEK and water from the product.
The end result is crystal clear MEKP, that always detonates by fuse, and when 1 drop is soaked into a piece of wood and a flame put to it, the report
hurts your ears and it blows a nice chunk out of the wood.
I bring that up as I have heard people saying it is hard to detonate by fuse and that when soaked into wood it just crackles.
[Edited on 21-10-2007 by ~TCM~]
[Edited on 21-10-2007 by ~TCM~]
I will set you to burn
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Totenkov
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I made a hell of a bang the other day. Really simple:
A block of wood (I used Cedar). Use a spade bit or auger and drill a hole about an inch deep. the drill a smaller hole inside the big one make the
hole just big enough to be able to stick in a birthday sparkler. stick the sparkler in at your blasting site and fill the big hole with MEKP and let
it soak in, then do it again.
All in all I poured in about 150 mls of MEKP and then poured in a bit more just so the Mg sparks from the sparkler would reach it.
The resulting blast was huge, blowing the block to all hell, there were only small splinters scattered in a 20 meter radius. I managed to get about 80
meters away from the block and still my ears were feeling the heat .
And yes, MEKP isn't nearly as sensitive to shock as some think. It takes a real good whack with a hammer to go off. I would prefer it over most
primaries.
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Totenkov
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Also in reply to one of the above posts, there is a solid form of MEKP. It needs to be made at a much lower temperature. It forms at about -20
degrees. A good primary to make is an acetone/MEK mix. Make it the same way you make AP or MEKP. use equal volumes of both ketones and your going to
end up with acetone peroxide suspended in MEKP.
the result is an incredibly powerful primary not as sensative as AP, and makes a great detonator.
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sdrawkcab
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I've recently made some MEKP. I was wondering whether or not it would be possible to synthesize this material without using acid. I noticed that I
lost a heck of a lot of it while neutralizing the acid in it. I have a beaker in a constant ice bath right now that's been there for about 4 days now.
There is a thin layer of oily substance on top, but I'm wondering if this is just the monomeric form.
I could do some tests, but I'm not sure what I'd be looking for specifically. If I do some tests, I'll post them.
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Totenkov
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No. It will take months to form. You need a strong acid to catalyze the reaction. I let my MEKP sit for 12 hours, 4 days is pointless. Getting the
dimer or trimer form depends on the acid you are using. Supposedly with HCl as a catalyst you cannot get the dimmer form. I have never really cared to
test it however.
When using H2S04 the d/t is depending on the cooling. Not enough cooling= dimmer form.
I think this is how it works.
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sdrawkcab
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Thanks for the speedy reply.
I wasn't sure how long it would take. I think I heard a couple places that if you don't put acid in an Acetone Peroxide synthesis it will take a week
or two to form.
I'm using H2SO4 so I don't need to worry about acid quality (although I am using "Liquid Lightning" drain opener with the buffers in it)
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zeppelin69
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You may want to consider diluting your acid a bit to about 60%. Adding concentrated sulfuric to AP or MEKP will make an unnerving hissing sound and
cause localized heating.
Totenkov, I always use HCl for MEKP, and I never get the mono form. At this point I am also unaware of a trimer, MEKP usualy occurs as mono, dimer,
and anhydrous dimer (free of MEK).
[Edited on 23-11-2007 by zeppelin69]
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