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Author: Subject: Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide
grndpndr
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Ive tried to ensure it was understood my interest was purely theoretical and not of a practical nature but considering todays political climate almost any discussion seems to have a tendency to tug on some folks shorthairs.(not speaking about legitamite members with genuine interest in the science behind the subjects presented)XYZ types particularly and frankly i cant think of a place more lkely to be monitored and thus avoided by real bad folks.
Zinc
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A few minutes ago I wanted to ignite around 1 ml of MEKP/AP (50:50). I poured it in a metal dish and ignited it with a torch. Strangely it only burned with a small blue flame. When I blew on it (around 2 seconds after igniting it) It went off with a loud bang and a short lasting fireball (much shorter lasting than with normal deflagration). I never saw that happen before!! Did it ever happen to anyone else? And does anyone know why did it happen? I ignited those amounts of MEKP/AP the same way many times and always it only deflagrated.

zeppelin69
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Well considering that I have NEVER heard the mention of an organic peroxide and unpredictablity in the same sentance, I am at a complete loss myself. Personaly, I would do more research in increasingly larger ammounts untill you solve this mystery. Who knows, maybe you will be recognized with a darwin award for your efforts. Good luck and God speed.

I am one of the original members of http://www.dererumomnis.org/bbs/
StevenRS
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It sounds like there was still an organic solvent in the peroxide mix. It slowly burned off, heating the mixture, and then made a quick DDT when the solvent was all burned off.
Zinc
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That is possible but I have ignited a few other samples from the same batch and they deflagrated like usually.

grndpndr
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MEKP/AP-Smokelss powder

In an earlier post I suggested/a sked if anyone was aware of a mixture of AP or MEKP and DBSP.(Double base smokeless powder). found such thing in a collection of info I hd laying about softening DBSP w/acetoe and mixing AP in a ratio of 1-1/1-3.I would imagine MEKP would soften the powder by virtue of its solvent effect on powders.Tried plain MEK and it softend the powder to plastic consistency easily so I would have to assume MEKP would do the same.The perception of the articles writer was the plastique ap was ery powerful as the DBSP also detonated after the acetone dried of course.No menton was made of a detontor just fused but I would personly think at least .25/.50 gr AP/MF etc detontor to ensure optimum vod.I woud thnk that the detonation of the DBSP with its high nitro content and NC content the VOD would be greater than AP/AN alone.What would the proper % be with mekp and say bullseye for a balanced HE or is that an imposible request due to the unknowns of the powder?
497
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I wouldn't count on MEKP being a good solvent. I tossed some MEK on a styrofoam packing peanut and it was immediately reduced to sludge, then I did the same with 50/50 MEKP/AP and there was almost no effect... So the only way to know would be to test it.. but something tells me it wouldn't dissolve.

I think it would be better just to grind up the DBSP into a flour consistency and absorb the MEKP into it. I wonder if a coffee would detonate DBSP? I doubt it, I think nitrocellulose is too insensitive for that... maybe if there was a high enough nitroglycerin content?

Also does anyone have an idea of the OB of DBSP? I would think it would be near neutral to reduce corrosion and toxic gases?

[Edited on 22-6-2008 by 497]
grndpndr
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PVCglue mistake

PVC is far more chemicallyresistant to NC I thnk.Anyway I made a lazy mistake and the PVC glue cntains ONLY MEK and it DID dissove smoke less powder.IF mekp wont dissoleve DBSP guy could plasticize wth acetone mix in te proper amount of mekp run through a fine screen to regranulate and dry?Though I dubt it would dry (the mekp) once in a mxture with DBSP only the acetone.Lots of possibilitys here
fun thougt to play with.

IIC bullseye brand pistol powder contains somewhere around 25%- 40% NG

Somethng of a downer when considering high exp.will sometmes dramaticaly increase VOD when added to a modrae vel HE.
patent 6214140/ april10 details using ammnium picrate as a cheap way to rid mlitary stocks of the obsolete HE.With a det vel of 7000mps it only added 1000mps to ANFO at a 40% concentration?Interesting patent though

[Edited on 23-6-2008 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 23-6-2008 by grndpndr]
497
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Yesterday (in a dream of course) I mixed roughly equal volumes of Hodgdon Longshot shotgun powder with MEKP/AP. Absolutely nothing happened. I then added about 4 times the mixture's volume of acetone. It formed a very pretty pearlescent black and silver mixture. After lengthy stirring it became mostly homogeneous and sticky. I then poured it in a thin layer onto aluminum foil. It is now drying.

I'm hoping it will evaporate the acetone quickly, but I'm afraid it will just form a dry skin on top and remain full of acetone. I'm not sure how that could be solved. A little acetone shouldn't hurt things much, just reduce sensitivity.

I think it would be easier just to absorb the MEKP/AP into powdered gunpowder. I don't know how to grind it safely though. Maybe slurried with water in a blender? And a long extension cord on it...

Also the way I synthesize my MEKP/AP is by putting a 1:1 Acetone:MEK mix and a 1:1.5 battery acid:50% H2O2 in the freezer. Once they're cold I add a little of the ketone mix to the beaker of peroxide/acid until the the temperature rises up to 5*C or so. Then I leave it in the freezer for a few more hours and repeat the process until all the ketones have been added. Then I suck it out and wash it with water and its ready to go. It gets good yields (maybe 65-80% based on ketones IIRC). I just did a batch that that has a theoretical yield of 480 grams. Have yet to measure yield. It will hopefully go into sensitizing a big load of AN and sensitizing DBSP for a booster.

EDIT: I just measured the yield of the MEKP/AP synth, 221 grams of nice clean clear MEKP/AP after washing with water twice. 46% yield, not too good, but I was in a bit of a hurry. I'm happy with it anyhow.

I also checked on my DBSP based plastic. It seems to have lost its acetone quicker than I expected. It now has a stiff rubbery consistency to it, maybe stiff enough to crack if pulled quickly. I don't know how much acetone is left because I never weighed it, but it doesn't look like much at all. If one wanted something easier to mold, a higher ratio of MEKP/AP would help. Also using straight MEKP would improve its elasticity. It seems promising for a cast primary or sensitive secondary depending on the ratio. It does present a challenge because it shrinks a lot when it loses the acetone. Not sure how to deal with that.

[Edited on 28-6-2008 by 497]
grndpndr
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I would seem the mixture would be less sensitive w/o the ap
crystals and even if the mekp wasnt intimitately mixed with plasticized powder the point is a booster to more easily detonate a bullseye type powder with reported det vel of 6600mps w/o confinement and with a small cap.I wasnt aware mekp would evaporate rapidly but to prevent that Id simply put it in a sandwich ziplock bag until use relatively soon. also IIRC Ap crystals 1/1-1/3 were mixed w/ plasticized dbsp by way of acetone which when the ap/dbsp was intimately mixed was allowed to dry after shaping or casting to the shape desired and a hole for the cap formed.Doubt Id drill the hole however!LOL If anyone were to find out more say using a test plate
Id love to hear the results.

[Edited on 29-6-2008 by grndpndr]Patent using 40% ammonium picrate to anfo above added only 1000 fps not mps.

[Edited on 29-6-2008 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 29-6-2008 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 29-6-2008 by grndpndr]

[Edited on 29-6-2008 by grndpndr]
497
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There are no AP crystals involved. Personally I would never touch AP crystals, I like my fingers. AP is very soluble in MEKP so it never crystallizes. But, judging by a post on E&W the presence of AP does sensitize MEKP a bit even when dissolved.

MEKP does not evaporate fast at all. I have left open containers with a little MEKP in the bottom and came back many days later and its still there.

I think I used much more acetone to dissolve the DBSP than needed, 1:1 would be more appropriate I think. Dissolving DBSP in acetone and than adding MEKP/AP would be easier too.

I (or someone else) should do some sensitivity testing of the plastic, I'm a little scared of it, having no way of knowing its sensitivity.

I think for a booster it would only need 1:6 MEKP/AP:DBSP or so. Made pourable with minimum acetone and then cast around a detonator. Should work well.

My idea for explosive train is: 5g 1:1 MEKP/AP:DBSP ---> 200g 1:6 MEKP/AP:DBSP ---> 10,000g 1:1:3:3:22 MEKAP:Charcoal:DBSP:Al:AN

I want plenty of sensitizer in the main charge because I will probably end up using AN with 30% ammonium sulfate in it. I have all the materials needed, just lack the time and proper circumstances to try it any time soon.

Overall I think there is a lot of potential for powerful detonators and boosters made with MEKP mixed with other more powerful explosives. I hope this discussion isn't getting too practical, I'll try to keep it theoretical if I can.

[Edited on 30-6-2008 by 497]
Zinc
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If I were you I would remove charcoal from the mixture. And that mixture should be used immediately after you make it as it contains Al and organic peroxides+metals=bad.

497
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Aluminum is passivated with an oxide layer that renders it quite innert to attack by such weak things as organic peroxides. Other more reactive metals would definately be a bad idea without further testing.

And why remove the ground charcoal? I used it mainly to correct the OB, and to sensitize it, I've seen multiple patents that state it helps sensitize AN. If you're thinking the Al will correct the OB, I'm going to be using pretty coarse Al that will probably not take part in the explosion, hopefully it will start burning afterward and ignite some fuels that are placed around the main charge to get a thermobaric effect.
Zinc
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Yes charcoal sensitizes AN but much less than MEKP/AP, AL and DBSP. So in your mixture it is more of an desensitizer. And it decreases the oxygen balance in your mix (which is already oxygen deficient, especially with your AN containing 30% ammonium sulphate).

497
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No it is not already oxygen deficient if i calculated right.

15.5g AN produces 3g oxygen

6.6g NH4SO4 is OB neutral

1g MEKP/AP uses 1.7g

As I said earlier I don't think the course Al will have much of an effect on the OB, I could be wrong.

Unless the DBSP is quite oxygen deficient there is still a need for something to correct the OB. There are many things that could work, sugar, alchohol, ethylene glycol, diesel, etc. I picked carbon because it was the most concentrated OB reducer. Maybe there a better ways to do it.

1g C would use 2.6g oxygen, maybe a little too much, so less could be used, or something else more powerfully sensitizing maybe?

Edit: Its OK zink, it happens to the best of us. I did think about using fine Al, but alas I do not have any, nor have I seen any locally. And I don't have the time or desire to order it off the internet right now. Maybe someday. The only way would be to build a ball mill...

[Edited on 30-6-2008 by 497]
Zinc
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You are right, I was wrong sorry.

Perhaps you could substitute a part of the coarse Al with fine Al?

grndpndr
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Plastc sndwic bgs have never presented a problem w/decomposition.Polyhydrocarbon plastic is the one that has problms with MEKP/AP.AL is fine i you want a bright flsh and a bit more heave with your HE but it wont add any det velocity.If you want to make a dust bomb- FAE , If I recall 1b he-al/5lbs exp. dust-charcoal/flour/gasoline etc PM as i do think that qualifies as a practical app.

PS Sod nitrate/mekp also makes a nice dynamite a ratio of 44ml/gr mekp/50gr sodium nitrate is about right I believe. fertilizer grade sod nitrate adequate 15%n cost some 8-9$at the local hardware 4lbs,works for nitrations as well Im told. Im very interested but My aquaintance has become enamored of ammonium picrate-TNP-lead picrate firing train due to high vod/simplicity. VOD suitable for HEAT and platter charges.And as finances are tight what is suitable for the most applicatons takes precedence. PS; exp dust is bagged and placed on top of HE and layer of coarse AL.4-7lbs overpressure kills and destroys stick built + buldings.Small can 3 in x 1 1/2 he/al-5lbs flour,2lbs coarse flake AL,1/2 gall gasoline will destroy 2000 sq ft bulding. [Edited on 1-7-2008 by grndpndr] [Edited on 1-7-2008 by grndpndr] [Edited on 1-7-2008 by grndpndr] grndpndr International Hazard Posts: 508 Registered: 9-7-2006 Member Is Offline MEKP/DBSP, if the Mekp doesn plastize the powder as expected i would simply put the powder in a coffee mill and reduce granule size(to stable for problems) and mix with mekp w/o acetone as a possible desensitizer in a sandwch bag and detonate immediately or save for week or less and detonate in that form.Same method used with Mekp and AN nd IF the DBSP gives ful VOD of 6600mps that would be a simpe OTC med/high velocity HE. Possibly suitable for platter charges possibly even cone SC/cylndrical SC? 497 International Hazard Posts: 778 Registered: 6-10-2007 Member Is Offline Mood: HSbF6 Well I'll let you try the DBSP in blender idea for yourself, considering the fairly high percent NG in it, I'm not about to take that risk. I would think it would be safe, but I'm not sure enough to do it, if you know what I mean. I like my hands the way they are... I did however try a detonator using a DBSP/MEKAP mix. I took an 8 inch piece of 1/2 inch electrical conduit and welded one end closed and then filled it with straight DBSP and the added MEKAP until it seemed to be completely full. Then I epoxied the other end closed with wires passing through. A piece of stainless steel wire was used as a crude EBW since I didn't have nichrome. 24 volts from 2 lead acid batteries initiated it perfectly. It in turn initiated a booster of 150g DBSP + 50g MEKAP + 10g picric acid. The booster in turn nicely initiated 7 kg of sensitized 70:30 AN:Ammonium sulfate fertilizer. A good dream it was. [Edited on 18-7-2008 by 497] Zinc National Hazard Posts: 472 Registered: 10-5-2006 Member Is Offline Very nice!! With what did you sensitize your fertilizer? grndpndr International Hazard Posts: 508 Registered: 9-7-2006 Member Is Offline Nice test butTNP s seemingly pretty sensitive itself, ive used just a grm of lightly pressed fm seperated by a piece of tissue to detonate a comp detonator wth a several gram booster of TNP which should by itself be adequate booster at 7400mps.I really doubt ill need to reduce DBSP by mechanical means Im still of the opinon if MEK will plasticize NC powder why not MEKP?Or am i missing somethng?I dont have any great fear of DBSP as Ive been reloading most of my adult life never have I seen powder explode or even deflagrate from rough handling and ive tried a bunch of methods. Still never a coffee blender w/DBSP!if the MEKP wont plasticize the bullseye the flake size of bullseye is very small anyway and I wuoldnt think a problem.I wonder if youve seen the differece in a witness plate using mekp and AN vs plain MEKP/AP? no comparison the mekp an dynamite holing the witness plate whle the plain mekp simply denting it.Very curius to see if a potentially more powerful composition of MEKP/DBSP will perform or dissapoint. did I misread your post and you included/mix the picric acid in the booster/detonator with the mekp/DBSP? [Edited on 19-7-2008 by grndpndr] 497 International Hazard Posts: 778 Registered: 6-10-2007 Member Is Offline Mood: HSbF6 I figured you'd like that. Lets see, I'll have to dig up the notepad file I wrote up to keep things organized. I made plenty of effort to sensitize it. To roughly 15 pounds of fertilizer I added about 100g MEKP/AP, 390g R/C fuel (15% NM, 10% oil, 75% MeOH), 30g ground activated carbon. Then into the top 15% of it that was closest to the booster I mixed in 50g course aluminum (all I had ), 30ml 50% H2O2, 200g DBSP and a dash of CuSO4 for flavor. About 85% of the fertilizer was ground in a coffee grinder, the rest being left as prills. If I had more time and materials to sensitize it I would have detonated all 40 pounds of my fertilizer. I placed several gallons of gasoline and acetone around it in hopes of getting a little thermobaric action, but alas, it didn't ignite. I wanted to get a movie of it but my camera is at a friends house. It was impressive, the largest detonation I've ever witnessed. I was roughly 150 feet away behind my car and I still felt a good thump. EDIT: Yes grndpndr I realize my detonator and booster were very much overkill. There's a pretty big difference between "rough handling" and coffee grinder And trust me on this one, MEKP will not dissolve DBSP or just about anything else as far as I've seen. There is a vary large difference between it and MEK. After all, does acetone peroxide dissolve things like acetone does?? But as I said earlier, MEKAP mixed with plain unground DBSP seems to work just fine. [Edited on 19-7-2008 by 497] grndpndr International Hazard Posts: 508 Registered: 9-7-2006 Member Is Offline MEKP/DBSP,Most impressed with ANFO details .Would have loved to winess.first Ive heard of actual use of a low % nitro race fuel.in the past year 80% NM was available only last year IIrc but 55% max as of present and this diffcult to get afaik case lots may be required. Far different from strolling into auto speedshop and buying 98% for mixing hobby fuel at$40gall!

In any event the bullseyes very fine and it occured what effect an amount of ground AN/mekp/DBSP would produce.I ws thinking 20/25ml-grams mekp to 200 grms AN- 100gr/100gr DBSP?

You shoud have had an air fuel effect if the gasline had been placed on top of your HE with a little AL(what used to be called a dust explosive) with the amount of he used afew gallons of gas/coal dust 5-10lbs/5lbs flour shoulda been spectacular!!
DougTheMapper
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A money-saving breakthrough?

I have a suggestion:

Suppose that instead of buying costly concentrated H2O2, or spending the time to distill it yourself, you made it?

I'm talking about sodium percarbonate. Pounds and pounds of it can be found as some OxyClean products, between 50-60% mixed with sodium carbonate. In water, sodium percarbonate yields hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate (which is already in there anyway if you're using supermarket sources).

The sodium carbonate/percarbonate mix needed to make sufficient quantities of MEKP (or TATP) might interfere with the filtration step of TATP because there will probably be too much leftover carbonate to be completely in solution. This filtered mix of TATP and sodium carbonate may be more sensitive than TATP alone, and could be highly dangerous. Personally, I favor MEKP over TATP because of lack of sublimation and ultra-high sensitivity.

Anyway, you'll need to go crazy at the acid catalyst step to neutralize all the carbonates. I use HCl, so I'd end up with a mix of NaCl, MEK, MEKP, H2O2, and venting CO2. Also, maybe a bit of NaClO, which would go to NaCl and O2 in the presence of H2O2. Hey wait - the conversion to NaCl might just make the TATP filtration possible! Just make sure to wash it well to get rid of those gritty salt crystals....

Because of the nonpolar nature of MEKP, (hence the floating layer on top), I don't think it would be affected too much by all the dissolved minerals in the production bath.

So, one would need MEK, OxyClean powder stuff, water, and hardware store HCl. I like it.

I need an expert opinion on all this - what do you think?

Thanks,
-Doug

[Edited on 16-8-2008 by DougTheMapper]
497
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I don't see why that wouldn't work as long as you neutralized all the acid. That would take quite a lot of acid, but it is cheap at the moment. You might run into problems if the MEKP sinks the the bottom and mixes with the precipitated salt. Might make separation hard and increase sensitivity. Using sulfuric acid might help with that, increasing the density of the aqueous layer. I suppose after the MEKP was formed you could just add tons of water and dissolve all the salt. Also dealing with the huge amount of foaming that would occur when neutralizing the Na2CO3 might be a pain. You'd just have to try it and find out.

Still it would be a very useful thing if concentrated peroxide becomes (more) regulated. They would have a much harder time regulating such a widely used cleaning product like OxyClean, etc. Hopefully there aren't impurities that would cause problems.

PS. Don't use a product that contains bleach (or add it), it may greatly sensitize the MEKP. It might also inhibit it, or form unwanted byproducts.
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 Sciencemadness Discussion Board » Special topics » Energetic Materials » Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide Select A Forum Fundamentals   » Chemistry in General   » Organic Chemistry   » Reagents and Apparatus Acquisition   » Beginnings   » Miscellaneous Special topics   » Technochemistry   » Energetic Materials   » Biochemistry   » Computational Models and Techniques   » Prepublication   » References Non-chemistry   » Forum Matters   » Legal and Societal Issues   » Whimsy   » Detritus   » The Moderators' Lounge