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Author: Subject: Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide
lefty
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[*] posted on 23-11-2004 at 03:11


Ok, let me get this straight, NH4NO3 can be sensitized by catalyst grade MEKP?

What kind of impact sensitivity would this have?
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Taaie-Neuskoek
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[*] posted on 23-11-2004 at 09:26


Please look 5(!) posts above yours...I quote mr. Axt:


Quote:

AN/MEKP 9:1: >100cm (out of range!)
AN/MEKP looks like the big winner. Performing far better and far less sensitive then pure MEKP, even out classing the commercial explosive, i'll leave you to draw your own conclusions in reference the the known VOD and energy figures. It did surprise me that the AN based comps performed so well considering the small size and minimal confinement.




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lefty
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[*] posted on 23-11-2004 at 10:51


Ok, before you blow any rings off your pistons, the reason I asked was because I wanted clarification, that's all...

Also, if you'll re-read my post, you'll notice I was asking about the suitability of "catalyst grade MEKP" IE the type usually used in fiberglass working.

Before you waste bandwidth trying to justify yourself... consider waiting until someone who knows, and is here in the spirit of cooperative information sharing, answers the question.

[Edited on 23-11-2004 by lefty]
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chemoleo
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[*] posted on 23-11-2004 at 11:09


Well well, dimethylphtalate is normally added to hardener MEKP, with the EXPLICIT purpose of reducing shock sensitivity.
So yes, your sensitivity of the AN mix will decrease, but it will be obviously still greater than just ANFO for instance, as DMP is still 'fuel', if you like, while the remaining MEKP (around 30% or so I think) adds in terms of sensitivity. Might be worth a try anyway - although i think hardener is quite expensive.




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lefty
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[*] posted on 23-11-2004 at 11:38


Thank you Chemoleo

I was curious because the facility I work at used to have a fiberglass process and I am in charge of disposing of hazardous wastes here. I have about 2 gallons of catalyst grade MEKP to get rid of.

I'd hate to see it wind up in a landfill... but I have to be careful because I also like to stay as legal as possible.

I'm starting to get way off topic, but I wonder if this mixture would be sensitive enough to use as exploding targets, which can be made and used legally.

I hope that's not too "practical" as opposed to "theoretical."
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[*] posted on 11-12-2004 at 09:00
Supposing I made some MEKP?


I have an awesome old freezer that goes to -20C! which is super for peroxide forming, so i carefully made a small batch (200ml aprox. total liquids) of MEKP, and have left it now in the freezer for about 15 hours, now I have a 5/8" layer of a clear heavy liquid on the bottom, and 1 1/4" of a milky lighter liquid floating on top...from other sythns I've read the layers usually float the other way around...which one is the MEKP? I'll do my own tests, but I thought I'd ask anyway, i used:

69ml MEK
90ml 35% H2O2
30ml 31.5 % HCl

Update:

Its been 24 hours, inbetween which I transfered the mixture into a small glass, and then left it in the freezer, which remained around -10C, nothing froze. Upon removing from the freezer, i tested the top cloudy layer and confirmed it to be MEKP by hitting about 1 drop on a cotton ball lightly with a hammer, it popped quite loudly, and then I noticed there was a bit still on the cotton, so I smacked it again, and it popped even louder!

So...end result: around 120ml of MEKP produced out of 189ml liquid...excelent yield in my opinion. Still cloudy for now, but I'll wait to see if it clears. Quite happy with the power, since barely a drop made two loud bangs. Will try it in some BC's shortly.

[Edited on 12-12-2004 by Mickhael]
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JohnWW
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[*] posted on 12-12-2004 at 16:34


In 1982 I worked for a short time between regular jobs for a small firm which made fiberglass (glass reinforced polyester) boats, mostly, using steel-reinforced molds made of the same material. 1,end-diols, generally ethylene glycol, were reacted with 1,end-dicarboxylic acid (which may have included terephthalic acid), to produce the polyester, which was spread over the inside of the molds in successive layers (coated beforehand with carnauba wax to prevent adhesion) into which the fibers (kevlar, nylon 66, and mats of short-strand glass fiber, usually alternating) were immersed using small hand-rollers. The fiber-filled polyester was allowed to set. The process was repeated several times usually, irregularities being ground off after setting.

When the main reagents were mixed, small quantities of methyl isobutyl ketone peroxide, which has a strong, penetrating, characteristic smell, and usually also cobalt(II) naphthenate (a magenta-colored liquid) were added as catalysts. The catalysts and reagents are described in, for example, http://www.specialchem4polymers.com/tc/Organic-Peroxides-Cur... , http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterialText.asp?bassnu... , http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Se... , http://patents.nimblewisdom.com/patent/6635213-Method-of-pro... .
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Mickhael
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[*] posted on 15-12-2004 at 17:07
Slight mistake in post...


Ok, to my horror, I realized after a bit more testing, that I made a mistake in the layer checking, the bottom, heavy clearish layer, was the actual MEKP, and there was an almost invisably thin layer on the top of the waste layer (upper, water-like milky layer) that fooled me into thinking it was the MEKP to start with...so to clarify...the bottom, heavy fluid was the MEKP...high quaility yeild as far as i can tell, but only about 60ml yeild, rather then the above stated amount, I have not nutrilized it whatsoever, as I understand it is not needed, after a few days, about another Teaspoon full of MEKP appeared in the waste fluid which I had saved, leading me to believe, there was still some reactions going on, both the waste and MEKP product, did not freeze in a number of hours in below -10C. Also of note, about half a dropfull, made two loud bangs when soaked into some cotton and struck with a hammer on a steel plate. Powerful stuff for newbies, so be careful people!
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Hideki Matsumoto
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shocked.gif posted on 19-12-2004 at 00:11
weird reaction with H2O2 and MEK


alright here one for the MEKP nuts...
I just got some MEK chilled (-10c) and added it in the correct proportions to chilled H2O2. the result was an instant clouding. I then added 2 drops of HCl and then the temp climbed, and an oily translucent-white material floated to the surface. The bottom layer was white. what happend?

I havent tested the material just yet.. this is the trimeric version of mekp? or what is it? photo coming soon.
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Axt
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[*] posted on 19-12-2004 at 00:30


MEKP is slightly heavier then water, thus will sink in it, but because of MEK contaminants and the solutes in the water, MEKP will most likely be the top layer. Let it sit a few hours, extract the top layer then evaporate it free of any MEK. MEKP itself isnt very volatile, compared to MEK.

I prefer the red dyed MEK, looks nice and extraction is easier :)
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Mickhael
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[*] posted on 19-12-2004 at 02:18
hmm...


Mine was perfectly clear, and oily, while the waste liquid was yellowish...also most of my MEKP was on the bottom, a thin layer on top, but when I added a bit of salt and stirred the mixture, all the MEKP went instantly to the surface...much easier to get at that way...since my silly metal syringes react instantly with the MEKP when I try to extract it from the bottom...which makes me nervous since I don't know if it could decompose because of that :P I've also yet to deacidify my MEKP, and it seems stable so far...maybe it really doesn't need the water/bi carb/ammonium wash like has been said on E&W?

Ps: How do I post photo's? I know the answer is probly around...I just wondered if theres a quick and easy answer someone could tell me...ty.

[Edited on 19-12-2004 by Mickhael]
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[*] posted on 19-12-2004 at 02:39


Mickhael

To add pictures to you're posts, you go to post you’re reply, if you look above the window where you type you’re posts you will see a little box with a mountain and a sun on it. Click on that.

IMHO, when dealing with explosives one should always neutralize the acid let behind if possible (there are exceptions though like picric and picramic acid). It is absolutely necessary when you’re mixing explosives with other explosives.

[Edited on 19-12-2004 by Joeychemist]

[Edited on 19-12-2004 by Joeychemist]
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[*] posted on 19-12-2004 at 06:11


Has anybody tried the coprecipitation of the liquid mixed peroxide product of AP / MEKP , which has improved properties over MEKP alone ? Simply use a 50/50 by volume mixture of MEK and acetone , and the product which forms overnight in the cold is a dense clear liquid which settles to the bottom . The AP dissolved in the MEKP excludes moisture nicely and residual acid is for the most part excluded also , so the product separates directly in pure form and high yield , as a more dense and powerful composition than MEKP alone . The dissolved AP does not crystallize out of the mixture on storage even at low temperatures .
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Mickhael
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[*] posted on 19-12-2004 at 22:28
I see...


Ah, so even MEKP, youd recamend always removing the acid eh? I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the heads up on photo posting...and whats IMHO mean? sorry...haven't figured that one out yet.

rosco: I haven't tried the AP/MEKP mix yet, but i'm planning on it, as soon as i get my magnetic mixer working and have figured the best way for deacidfying the mixture (I certainly don't plan on fooling around with not removing the acid from anything containing AP!! LOL) I will try to start using my website for some explosive videos and pictures soon as well...so i can post visual results.

[Edited on 20-12-2004 by Mickhael]

Ps: Does anyone know how MEKP reacts with Nickrome wire? I like to use it in my electric ignitors, but if its going to react with my MEKP then I'll have to use another method...

[Edited on 20-12-2004 by Mickhael]
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[*] posted on 20-12-2004 at 00:08
Just did another batch of MEKP at -6.3c .. samething


Wow, this is getting weirder and wierder... Everytime I make MEKP the moment I add H2O2 to MEK @ -1 to -6c the solution instantly clouds to a translucent whitish without the Catlyst HCl @ ~35%.. wow ... this is so strange!!

I added My 15ml of HCL, and the solution is a little bit more cloudy.. but still translucent.... hmmm
Yet it detonates upon hard impact like a primer. I will have to see when my reaction is completed..
I do have an oily layer at the bottom of the flask but it is insensitive to flame, shock and will not detonate in a 9:1 with AN...

[Edited on 20-12-2004 by Hideki Matsumoto]
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[*] posted on 30-12-2004 at 09:23
Wires


The nichrome wire reacts with MEKP as metals reacts with all organic peroxides (decomposition over time, may lead to detonation). Paint your wire with something to prevent this problem.



And now we add powdered sugar to the previously liquefied chlorine dioxide...
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Mickhael
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[*] posted on 31-12-2004 at 05:10
Painting wire...


Any suggestions as to what I could paint on that wouldn't end up either desolving or reacting with the peroxide?
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[*] posted on 2-1-2005 at 00:01
Why paint the wire???


You want to paint the wire??? Why? I suppose there are many things one could use, (maybe a nitro cellulose lacquer might be a starting place) but there are easier ways my friend, what are you using for blasting caps as of now? It is not hard to make a waterproof none metal blasting caps and you can still use you’re nicrome wire without having to “paint” it.;)

I like to use PVC piping as a container and for confinement, I seal the one end closed with epoxy resin then fill the pipe with sawdust or tp, then fill with MEKP. I use blasting caps made from hand rolled paper tubes (like firecracker tubes) and water proof them with plastic baggies and shower caulking. I use the same caps for all my liquid explosive blasting operations. Use you’re imagination
;)

[Edited on 2-1-2005 by Joeychemist]
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Mickhael
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[*] posted on 2-1-2005 at 14:17
Why paint...because


I usually make a loop or strand of nickrome wire directly through my cap or container, which is usually 1/2" plastic waterline (3" piece), since I find its easy to seal, as well as drill holes in for anything. So that makes my wire contact the peroxide directly, how do you seperate your wire and still make it effective? I suppose I could just make a BP charge on top and seperate it by wax from the MEKP...and ignite that...hmmm.. any other suggestions?

I have also used PVC and caulking to seal ends up, and i find it works great...I also have some slow burn ignitor fuse...but it has a metal core, so i don't know if it would be any safer to have emmersed in the MEKP...
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lefty
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[*] posted on 3-1-2005 at 05:59


you use sawdust to absorb the MEKP?

interesting

Does that have any effect on its sensitivity to mechanical shock?




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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 14:42


I attemped this experiment and failed miserably. I wanted to add to the thread the importance of using pure MEK. There is nothing on this detail so far. I bought pvc pipe cement - the only product the store carried that contained a decent % of MEK.Which has on the label Methyl Ethyl Ketone 30 - 60% Cyclohexanone 10 - 30%. I knew it was no good the second it was poured in the jar-way to thick. Kept going and added the peroxide and the glue just thickened into a big jelly blob. Chucked it out and will to find a pure source of MEK.
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[*] posted on 28-1-2005 at 19:44


Quote:
Originally posted by lefty
you use sawdust to absorb the MEKP?

interesting

Does that have any effect on its sensitivity to mechanical shock?


Yes it has a definite effect on shock sensitivity. Liquid explosives are generally hard to initiate, by soaking it into something like sawdust and giving confinement with slight tamping makes a big difference in terms of sensitivity to mechanical shock.
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[*] posted on 29-1-2005 at 14:21


It's because the liquid can't move around. As a liquid it has the property of conforming to the shape of it's container. In this case the container is a steel plate and a hammer. The liquid spreads out on striking making it much less suseptible to detonation, or just detonation directly under the hammer. When soaked into a solid it's ability to change it's location is much less reduced and thus detonates easier. There is more friction too.
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[*] posted on 29-3-2005 at 04:12


Just tried the Mr Anonymous MEKP/AP experiment.
I have never made MEKP before so I cant tell if AP was in there somewhere or not.
The MEK mixed perfectly with the acetone, and I could not tell what was acetone and what was MEK.
After reading the thread I thought the top layer was the MEKP/AP. In my case it was the bottom layer.
Gave a drop the hammer smash it went off but no bigger bang than the the same amount of AP by itself.
The thing was the same tiny drop exploded 4-5 times. I mean I hit it with a hammer it went bang so I hit the same spot, it went bang again and so on.
Same thing happened with a match stick except I used flame.
The mixture was very thin I expected I lot thicker. But I left some uncovered in a jar overnight this amount has thickened right up. Is it best to let it thicken up uncovered or use as?
I didnt bother with washing it, just removed the top layer and kept the rest.
There is no nice orange fireball when a small drop is touched with a flame, just a bang.
The stuff I have sinks in water with in seconds.
I also added some to KNO3 and it mixed in fine. No bubbling or gases coming off.
Anyone else tried this?
Just have been mucking around with it and IMHO this stuff is very dangerous.
Im not sure if its because a didnt wash it or what, this stuff I have is pretty damn sensitive to shock. It given me a bit of a fright. I dipped a skewer about 1 ml in for 1 second and droped it from shoulder hight and it went off !
Dont drop it what ever you do.





[Edited on 29-3-2005 by fatkangaroo]



[Edited on 30-3-2005 by fatkangaroo]
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[*] posted on 4-4-2005 at 13:16


After deciding that the 50/50 mix was to sensitive I am going for 80% MEKP and 20% AP. I took a lovely bunch of photos but cant put them up to save my life.
Another way of making this could be make MEKP first then add X amount of grams of AP. At least then you would know how much AP is in there. I tested the mixed peroxide by itself and mixed with KNO3. The pure stuff is very powerful. The KNO3 mix was only fired with a fuse and it was a dud, it went off but not very strong more of a fizz than a bang. The KNO3/MEKP/AP detonates with a medium strength hammer blow .I really like these mixed peroxides but I really dont trust them. The yields are very very nice . I believe in the pure form its way to sensitive to transport. My testing sight is a good 15 minute drive and there is no way I would have it in the car with me in pure form. Going to try a 10% mixed peroxides with 90% AN mix just like the plain MEKP/AN brew and see how it goes. Hopefully mixed with AN I will get at least something thats transportable.
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