Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  ..  6    8    10  ..  14
Author: Subject: Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide
497
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: HSbF6

[*] posted on 6-2-2008 at 19:12


Not really, it just burns. It only detonates when there's a larger quantity confined. I works nicely actually because its oily and not harmed by water. The thicker the string the faster it burns, if its too thin it won't go at all. I would still rather use real fuse but I hate to waste it when I'm just messing around.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
E-tech
Harmless
*




Posts: 36
Registered: 30-5-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-2-2008 at 13:28


I've often seen testing of liquid energetic materials conducted by absorbing it onto a piece of tissue or cotton, has anyone thought to absorb a larger amount onto a larger piece of cloth, and initiate it as a kind of homemade "sheet explosive"? I wonder if the blast from this easy to make chemical could produce measurable effects... (I.e.: notable damage from the blast wave moving away from the sheet of explosive at a right angle).
Sealing the sheet in a large plastic bag should help to prevent contact with the liquid itself, and provide flexibility to direct the blast wave...........
View user's profile View All Posts By User
rbick
Harmless
*




Posts: 13
Registered: 10-7-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: Don't Ask

[*] posted on 13-2-2008 at 05:57


I actually did conduct a few tests with this very idea in mind. First, I used MEKP on a 8X8 inch piece of linen. I didn't soak it into the cloth until I was at the blasting site. I had however secured a 1g pressed AP cap onto the sheet.

When the time came, I placed the cloth on a piece of plywood and using an eye dropper, soaked it with about 16g MEKP. The detonation was full and punched a whole about the same size as the sheet, maybe a little larger. I have the video on my other computer, and I'll upload them later if I remember... ;)

I also tried this method with 20mL PLX. The cap was .5g AP and 1g ETN pressed into a thick straw. This only achieved partial detonation. If I remember correctly, critical diameter of PLX is somewhere around 1/16th of an inch. Perhaps I needed more PLX and a bigger booster, maybe 2g ETN.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Totenkov
Harmless
*




Posts: 15
Registered: 16-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 13-2-2008 at 08:41


I have heard of an "explosive paper" a mixture of MEKP + PETN mixed into mineral oil. An ordinary sheet of paper is dipped into the solution, its allowed to dry, then a blasting cap is taped to the paper. Supposed to be extremely powerful. A little sneeky being that the paper is like any other, you can write on it and crumple it up, just dont drop a book on it!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
froot
National Hazard
****




Posts: 342
Registered: 23-10-2003
Location: South Africa
Member Is Offline

Mood: refluxed

[*] posted on 13-2-2008 at 12:16


Or send it through a dot matrix printer :)



We salute the improvement of the human genome by honoring those who remove themselves from it.
Of necessity, this honor is generally bestowed posthumously. - www.darwinawards.com
View user's profile View All Posts By User
StevenRS
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 72
Registered: 31-12-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 13-2-2008 at 17:10


Quote:
Originally posted by froot
Or send it through a dot matrix printer :)


Whoo.... Whoo.... That would be awesome...

Has anyone heard about those 3d printers? Use an explosive "ink"
mixed with the UV hardening binder, then add imagination...



[Edited on 13-2-2008 by StevenRS]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
12AX7
Post Harlot
*****




Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline

Mood: informative

[*] posted on 13-2-2008 at 18:00


TNT can be fused safely. I would suppose a standard powder basin, heat fusion type stereolithography machine would be capable of producing interesting shaped charges. :)

Density wouldn't be great though, and the heat source would have to be carefully tuned to ensure the whole bucket doesn't burn off (let alone go high order).

Tim




Seven Transistor Labs LLC http://seventransistorlabs.com/
Electronic Design, from Concept to Layout.
Need engineering assistance? Drop me a message!
View user's profile Visit user's homepage View All Posts By User This user has MSN Messenger
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-3-2008 at 14:01


I had a problem with MEKP. I made it with 19% HCl, MEK p.a. and 30% H2O2 p.a. I mixed 20 ml of peroxide with around 20 ml of MEK and around 10 ml of HCl. The majority of MEKP formed in one minute. I let it stand for around 30 min. Then I extracted some MEKP (top layer) and soaked a piece of toilet paper with it. Strangely it only slowly burned. Shouldn't MEKP burn like AP? Them I tried to ignite a few drops of MEKP with a match. I couldn't light it. Then I mixed it with sodium nitrate in a ratio around 50:50, put it in a small plastic bottle with a hole in the cap for the sparkler and tried to ignite it with a sparkler. It only ignited and burned slowly until it extinguished itself. Does anyone know why did the MEKP behave like that?



View user's profile View All Posts By User
497
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: HSbF6

[*] posted on 12-3-2008 at 17:36


You didn't let it react long enough, you probably still have MEK mixed in to the MEKP. I usually leave it in the freezer overnight to react even though I have 50% H2O2. And wash with water a couple times and then let it dry in a dish for a day or two. BTW I usually use a 50/50 mix of acetone to MEK, it works great and is cheaper. When the reaction is done I have about half the volume taken up by crude MEKP. Battery acid works well as a catalyst too. Good stuff, I just made a bunch of electric caps with it, they work pretty good. I wouldn't bother with mixing it with nitrates... but thats just me.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 13-3-2008 at 11:02


Quote:
Originally posted by 497
You didn't let it react long enough, you probably still have MEK mixed in to the MEKP.


That is possible.

Quote:
Originally posted by 497
BTW I usually use a 50/50 mix of acetone to MEK, it works great and is cheaper.


I also always use that but I wanted to make pure MEKP that time instead of MEKP/AP.




View user's profile View All Posts By User
StevenRS
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 72
Registered: 31-12-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-3-2008 at 13:11


If I wanted to safely, calmly, chemically decompose some MEKP I didn't want, how could I do this?
I have thought about this, and i am clueless.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
tumadre
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 169
Registered: 10-5-2005
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-3-2008 at 13:28


Mix it with some other hydrocarbon and burn it
View user's profile View All Posts By User
garage chemist
chemical wizard
*****




Posts: 1803
Registered: 16-8-2004
Location: Germany
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 25-3-2008 at 13:41


You need a chemical reductant that is capable of reducing peroxides.
Search for methods to purify peroxide-forming solvents like THF and other ethers from peroxides.
One method I remember is to shake the solvent with a concentrated solution of ferrous sulfate.
You could try that with your MEKP- use a cosolvent like ethanol to facilitate mixing of organic and aqueous phase and gently swirl from time to time.




www.versuchschemie.de
Das aktivste deutsche Chemieforum!
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-4-2008 at 13:42


I have a problem with MEKP. I made it with both 12% and 30% H2O2. Always it only burns like acetone. Not energetic like MEKP should. When I mixed it with NaNO3 and tried to ignite it with a sparkler it only burned slowly. The ratio was around 50:50. When I made MEKPAP (50:50) with the same peroxide and MEK It worked very good. I will try to dissolve some AP in the MEKP I have to see if it will burn like it should. Does anyone know why it happens?

[Edited on 8-4-2008 by Zinc]




View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-4-2008 at 13:57


I tried now. It burns the same way. But the MEKPAP made from mixed acetone and MEK works good. Does anyone know why?



View user's profile View All Posts By User
497
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: HSbF6

[*] posted on 8-4-2008 at 16:21


I still think you aren't letting evaporate off the MEK contamination. Try setting it in a shallow open dish for a day or two and then burn it. A more detailed description of your procedure would also help me figure out what you're doing.

I'm going to mix up a nice big batch of MEKP/AP for stump blasting.

A while ago I tried a mix of about 30 grams MEKP/AP mixed with about 45 grams very finely powdered ammonium nitrate. It went off nicely with a fuse but produce a large thick cloud of white smoke. This seems odd, was the ammonium nitrate not detonated? That's the only reason I can think of, I suppose it would take a pretty powerful blasting cap... hmm.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
E-tech
Harmless
*




Posts: 36
Registered: 30-5-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 8-4-2008 at 20:13


Totenkov- the explosive paper you mention only uses MEK not MEKP- it's used as a solvent to dissolve the PETN, and a small amount of mineral oil is added to prevent the formation of large, obvious crystals. Acetone could be used in place of the MEK.
As for running it through a dot matrix printer, nice idea, but, how about replacing the radiator fluid in a vehicle with MEKP, or PLX?
Acetone and MEK work better together than MEK alone? Maybe some sort of side reactions help the formation of the MEK. Not really a bad thing- isn't a solution of AP in MEKP denser that straight MEKP? Higher density does tend to result in higher detonation velocities.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 9-4-2008 at 04:14


Quote:
Originally posted by 497
I still think you aren't letting evaporate off the MEK contamination.


That is a possibility. But why does then MEKPAP work and I also don't let the MEK or acetone to evaporate?

Quote:
Originally posted by 497
Try setting it in a shallow open dish for a day or two and then burn it.


I will try that.

Quote:
Originally posted by 497
A more detailed description of your procedure would also help me figure out what you're doing.


I mix MEK with H2O2 (when using 30% around 40-45 ml of H2O2 to 30 ml of MEK, with 12% 10 ml of MEK and 22 ml of H2O2), then I add 19% HCl. After 24 hours I extract the MEKP with a syringe.

I'm going to mix up a nice big batch of MEKP/AP for stump blasting.

Quote:
Originally posted by 497
A while ago I tried a mix of about 30 grams MEKP/AP mixed with about 45 grams very finely powdered ammonium nitrate. It went off nicely with a fuse but produce a large thick cloud of white smoke. This seems odd, was the ammonium nitrate not detonated? That's the only reason I can think of, I suppose it would take a pretty powerful blasting cap... hmm.


I made MEKPAP/AN and always set it off with a AP cap (a few grams). In my experience it is "weaker" than APAN and also creates thick white smoke. My APAN doesn't do that (but I have seen videos where there is a large amount of smoke). Perhaps my MEKPAP/AN is "weaker" because the AN I use is cast and ground so it is not porous and the MEKPAP cant soak in the granules (which are mostly very fine).




View user's profile View All Posts By User
497
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 778
Registered: 6-10-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: HSbF6

[*] posted on 9-4-2008 at 17:13


Quote:

But why does then MEKPAP work and I also don't let the MEK or acetone to evaporate?


Probably because it reacted more completely, you know 1 ml of acetone requires a different amount of H2O2 than 1 ml MEK, that makes a difference that you have to compensate for. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head.

As far I MEKP/AN goes I would bet its just not initiating the any/all of the AN, simply dispersing it as a cloud. I've heard of this happening with other compositions that include AN. If you really wanted to know I think the best way to do it would be compare the damage of an MEKP/AN mixture with a mixture of MEKP with something inert that has a similar density and particle size to the AN. Maybe fine sodium sulfate or the like. The AP/AN mix sounds interesting but I don't want to deal with AP, too dangerous for my taste. I'd try all this myself but my parents have said no more detonations... After I detonated the MEKP/AN charge I mentioned earlier. They're afraid people in the neighborhood will get worried and call the police... arggh

The good news is my aunt is clearing some property and asked me to come destroy some stumps, so I need to figure out a good composition, hopefully cheap considering I'll need a lot. I'm thinking possibly H2O2/glycerin or something similar since I have 5 gallons of 50% H2O2. Maybe H2O2/glycerin saturated with AN? So many possibilities! The problem is I can't do any testing beforehand, so I'll just have to hope it works... :(
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zelot
Harmless
*




Posts: 44
Registered: 27-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: hopeful

[*] posted on 10-4-2008 at 06:07


@497:
I have a theory why your MEKP/AP/AN charge didn’t work. Maybe when you fired it, the initial shockwave ruptured the container, so when it reached the end it simply vaporized rather than exploded.




So... what did you do over the weekend?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-4-2008 at 01:10


After I have left the MEKP on the reaction liquid to sit 4 days to evaporate the excess MEK it burns a little faster than before but still not fast enough (as I have seen in videos of pure MEKP). It looks like there is still much MEK in it. I probably didn't use good ratios when making the MEKP. I used 100 ml of 12% H2O2, 45 ml of MEK and around 15 ml of 19% HCl. Does anyone know the correct ratios?



View user's profile View All Posts By User
StevenRS
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 72
Registered: 31-12-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-4-2008 at 13:08


Quote:


CHEMICALS NEEDED:
-40mL 27.5% H2O2 solution (other concentrations may be used; the volume of hydrogen peroxide solution will need to be adjusted accordingly; the quantity of sulfuric acid used will also need to be adjusted)
-25mL Methyl Ethyl Ketone CH3COCH2CH3 (sold as a solvent at hardware stores; keep in mind that it will dissolve most plastics)
-5mL 98% sulfuric acid (other concentrations may be used, the volume of sulfuric acid will need to be adjusted accordingly)


I always use an excess of H2O2 so there is no MEK left over, and then use salt to crash out any remaining water in the MEKP.
I still leave it out to dry in a cool, dry place.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-4-2008 at 13:10


I will try and report the results. Does anyone know the ratios for 12% H2O2?

[Edited on 12-4-2008 by Zinc]




View user's profile View All Posts By User
StevenRS
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 72
Registered: 31-12-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-4-2008 at 13:24


Use a proportion to figure it out,

40(ml) * 27.5(%) Text x(ml) * 12(%)
----------------- Text = Text ------------------- and solve for x.
25(ml) * 100 (%) Text 25(ml) * 100(%)

I know the answer, try to figure it out.

[Edited on 12-4-2008 by StevenRS]

[Edited on 12-4-2008 by StevenRS]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Zinc
National Hazard
****




Posts: 472
Registered: 10-5-2006
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 12-4-2008 at 13:33


Is 91.6 ml the right answer?:)



View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  ..  6    8    10  ..  14

  Go To Top