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Author: Subject: Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide
Zinc
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[*] posted on 12-4-2008 at 14:17


And the MEKP I tried to make with 12% H2O2. It actually did work:) There is a small layer of MEKP on top that I tried to ignite and it would burn slow. But there is a big blob of clear MEKP on the bottom of the jar that I didn't notice before. I tested it and it burns very good!!

And I tried to make MEKP with 30% H2O2. I used the ratios at the beginning of the thread. Only I used 19% HCl instead if H2SO4 (I adjusted the ratio). Within seconds 10 ml of MEKP formed. I tried to ignite it and it burns the slow way. Now I will let it stand a few days and test it then again.

[Edited on 12-4-2008 by Zinc]




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StevenRS
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[*] posted on 12-4-2008 at 14:46


And we have a winner! Yea, thats it.
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[*] posted on 13-4-2008 at 16:20


Yesterday I mixed roughly 60 ml of MEKP/AP with roughly 100g AN in a large plastic pill bottle. The mixture filled it about 2/3 full. I found a nice big partially rotten stump and shoved the bottle into the center rotten out part. It detonated completely with a fuse and produced a cloud of brown rotten wood dust. It worked quite well. Next I'm going to try with a more neutral OB. This will need a detonator though..
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[*] posted on 13-4-2008 at 18:34


Be careful using a fuse with MEKP, it likes to soak up your fuse and go bang before you want it to.

And someone with more experience, tell me, would a 9:1 ratio of AN:MEKP need a detonator?

[Edited on 13-4-2008 by StevenRS]
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[*] posted on 13-4-2008 at 20:15


I know it soaks into fuses, that's why I simply stuck the fuse in and lit it immediately.

I guarantee 9:1 ratio will not go off with a fuse. I even tried it with a detonator (not a very powerful one mind you) and it still didn't detonate. I think the minimum *reliably* fuse sensitive ratio it something like 2:1 but it depends on the particulate size of the AN.

Right now I'm working on figuring out the ratio of MEKP to EGDN that is fuse sensitive. I think it will be much more effective that straight MEKP.


[Edited on 13-4-2008 by 497]
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Zinc
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[*] posted on 14-4-2008 at 02:28


As far as I know MEKP and MEKP/AP are storage stable. Are MEKP/AP/AN and MEKP/AN also storage stable? I believe they are but I want to make sure as I have 300 g of MEKP/AP/AN and I think I will not be able to set it of in the next few days (perhaps even a week).

And for the 9:1 ratio I always use 7-10 g of lightly pressed AP to detonate it.

[Edited on 14-4-2008 by Zinc]




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[*] posted on 14-4-2008 at 19:12


Although I have never stored it, I would guess your mixture is stable. Unless of course you have some weird impurities in it. Sometime someone should do some sensitivity testing on that mix. I would bet its pretty safe and insensitive if the AN is ground fine enough.

The other thing I want to try is taking the 9:1 mix and adding enough EGDN to make it pourable (and increase the power a lot).

The detonator I used was maybe 2 ml MEKP/AP. The charge was only contained in Al foil so that doesn't help either. Have fun with that 300 gram charge :P.
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[*] posted on 15-4-2008 at 01:02


Yes the mix with EGDN is very interesting:) I would like to try it myself but first I have to buy H2SO4 to make EGDN.

And yesterday I set of the 300 g charge. We buried it around 70 cm underground and ignited it with a car battery from around 25 m. The explosion was very nice. Earth was flying everywhere!! The resulting crater was 1.2 m wide and 40 cm deep (it was soft ground). Very nice:):)




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[*] posted on 18-4-2008 at 13:44


I have seen a video of a member at this forum (Axt) that used it and it worked. Axt can you please say what did you use for the detonator?

Did anyone else tried that mixture?




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[*] posted on 18-4-2008 at 15:11


I've never mixed EGDN with MEKP. I have 50:50 by volume with NM, in which it seems miscible but is surprisingly insensitive. A commercial #8 strength detonator gives no detonation, below is consecutive frames.

nm-mekp.jpg - 14kB
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[*] posted on 18-4-2008 at 18:30


Are there any specs of the cm shock sensitivity of MEKP?

In PATR2700 A44 shock sensitivity of cTATP is given as 500 g wt, 10 cm using Bureau of Mines apparatus, but with another, a French apparatus ("petit mouton") used 50 g wt from 15 cm to get detonations 50% of the time. The 500 g weight value is unrealistic for cTATP, using 90 g wt from a dropping height of 3 cm it can easily be detonated. Even using weights significantly smaller than that from about the same height, it will detonate that's why the petit mouton value is more realistic when it comes to its shock sensitivity. It's not hard at all to see why there are so many accidents with this compound.

For a comparison, mercury fulminate is 5 cm with 2 kg wt using Bureau of Mines apparatus, and 10 cm with 455 g wt using the Picatinny Arsenal apparatus. Lead azide is 12 cm with 2 kg wt, and another result was with 500g wt 30-40 cm (Hg(ONC)2 was 10.5 cm in this same test),etc.

Where does MEKP fall?
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[*] posted on 18-4-2008 at 19:11


This really isn't suitable for primary explosives but I did some tests,
http://youtube.com/watch?v=scL7sLKcBS4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P5577gDwQZI

Both acetone and MEK peroxides detonated with a drop of 0-5cm (the lowest setting). The "hammer" in this case has a far greater surface area then the industry ones thus dont try comparing heights/weights with those. For the test a thin layer was spread over the entire impact surface. Though it does provide consistant results for the likes of PETN I used as a standard, which required a drop of 40-45cm, and ETN was 30-35cm (it has 5cm increments).

I know of no other drop test figures for MEKP.
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[*] posted on 18-4-2008 at 21:12


Quote:
Originally posted by Axt
This really isn't suitable for primary explosives but I did some tests,
http://youtube.com/watch?v=scL7sLKcBS4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P5577gDwQZI

Both acetone and MEK peroxides detonated with a drop of 0-5cm (the lowest setting). The "hammer" in this case has a far greater surface area then the industry ones thus dont try comparing heights/weights with those. For the test a thin layer was spread over the entire impact surface. Though it does provide consistant results for the likes of PETN I used as a standard, which required a drop of 40-45cm, and ETN was 30-35cm (it has 5cm increments).

I know of no other drop test figures for MEKP.


Nice. I take it that's a 2 kg weight? 2Kg is definetly enough to set off cTATP, but so is even a 50 to 90g or less weight falling directly on it from as little as 3 cm.
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[*] posted on 19-4-2008 at 12:25


Nope its a 3kg weight, though as I said its working on an area thats probably >10x that of the industry apparatus, thus the reason for the high drop distance for PETN.
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[*] posted on 28-4-2008 at 16:56


Would you be able to use sodium bisulfate for MEKP instead of sulfuric or muriatic acid?



So... what did you do over the weekend?
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[*] posted on 28-4-2008 at 19:18


Unless there is something about sodium bisulfate that I am unaware of, I dont see how it would catalyze the reaction. The use of hydrochloric and sulfuric acids is for the H+ ions, these help the peroxide molecules bond to the ketones and form the larger cyclic molecules of TATP, DADP, and MEKP (diMethyl Ethyl Ketone diPeroxide).

Tin chlordes, (II ad IV) are the only salts that I am aware of that will actulay catalyze the reaction.




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[*] posted on 29-4-2008 at 06:06


On the Wikipedia for sodium bisulfate it says that a 1M solution can get to a pH of 1.4. It is also sold it 4 pound containers at Longs for decreasing the pH in pools.



So... what did you do over the weekend?
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[*] posted on 29-4-2008 at 17:43


But 7 % of sulfuric acid (~0.7 M) gives a much lower pH than that (around 0.3, the value I found for 5% (w/w)), check Henderson Hasselbach! The 7 % is based on the prep on page 1, first post, where 5 ml is in diluted in 70 ml total.

[Edited on 30-4-2008 by chemoleo]




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[*] posted on 2-5-2008 at 06:19


I do know that sulfuric acid is a very strong one. But that isn't the point. I was asking if I could use that because I don't have any other acids, like sulfuric, to use.



So... what did you do over the weekend?
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[*] posted on 2-5-2008 at 06:25


Do you really need a 5 page discussion on something that can very easily be tried, thus the word 'experiment'.
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[*] posted on 9-5-2008 at 15:31


There is one thing I would like to say about MEKP/AN. It is extremely important how the AN was prepared for it. If AN is made by recrystallization from a fertilizer, dried and then ground it wont work very well because when the AN is drying in the oven it melts in the water it contains. So when in solidifies it becomes compact and nonporous and even when ground up fine it doesn't absorb MEKP good. On the other hand if the AN is dried, ground up partially and then heated again (but not hot enough to melt), ground up a little more while hot and then finally ground when it cools it becomes much more porous and absorbs MEKP much better. You can also notice the difference between AN made with only one heating (much harder to ground, and the resulting powder looks like compact particles) and AN made with two "heatings" (much easier to ground and particles look fluffy).



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[*] posted on 11-5-2008 at 16:00


Ive followed along wth great interest the majority of threads for some time w/o posting
save1, cocerning the 'Indian' hindu or muslim it wasn't clear and his post desiring instructions safely manufacturing large quantities of a dangerous peroxide(MEKP) from an amateur chemistry forum rather than hire a company specifically equipped to design and operate such an endeavor.Surely a joke with us the butt of the fun.As to myself I am no chemist simply an interested very safety minded former military/civilian powder monkey for seismic exploration/ observer who was considering the possibility of a MEKP/double base smokeless powder such as hercules bullseye pistol powder which of course contains Guncotton/NG,some moderators/stabilizers.But the main point being i believe the powder containing near 40%NG/60% NC.I had heard
that this powder would High order detonate if confined with a powerful detonator and strong confnement such as in a pipe bomb of water pipe.The concern is MEKP compatible for short periods of a few hours.Also i assume he solvent properties of mekp would make a plastic conisistency the mixtuer and would then density be such that something akin to glass microballoons/powderd styrofoam be rquired for detonation despite the MEKP content of 10%-20%. Thoughts gentlemen?
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[*] posted on 11-5-2008 at 20:35


Are you saying you are concerned with MEKP's stablilty when mixed with DBSP? I would think you have nothing to worry about in that department. If you are still worried about it though, why take any unnecessary risks? Just mix the MEKP and DBSP on site and detontate it shortly after. What do you plan on using for the detonator?



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[*] posted on 12-5-2008 at 16:59


IF I were considering such a project I would likely use a compound detonator;1gr ful mer/1-2 gr pricic acid pressed in AL tubing just to be absolutely sure the detonator as adequate for the job.Im curious if some sort of microballoons styrofoam would be needed to reuce density /increase sensitivity? Though te MEKP itself should act as booster?Also a guestimate of appropriate percentages MEKP/double base pistol powder likely bullseye and should I expect the MEKP to act as a solvent with the NC.
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[*] posted on 13-5-2008 at 07:37


Some have partially softened Bullseye brand DBSP with acetone, aglomerated into a solid "stick" dried it and detonated unconfined with no additional sensitizers.

Al is a good choice for contact with picric acid, but a poor one for contact with Mercury fulminate.

I think we may be straying a bit close to use, rather than chemistry for this board. Roguesci.org being down tends to do that around here...
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