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Author: Subject: Mixing HMTD with urea nitrate or ammonium nitrate
badabooom
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[*] posted on 16-8-2012 at 00:47


There is no need to add fuel to the mixture. A method that could be used with reasonable safety and effectiveness is to firstly add about 1 third the weight of AN to a paper bag then 1/6 of the total weight AP, then inflate the bag but try not to use your breath as this contains a lot of moisture. GENTLY but firmly shake the bag from side to side for a min or two then add each component in their respective portion until everything is mixed properly. It normally takes around 5-10 min for a batch < 100g.

Going over 100g is not recommended as this means you have to work with large amounts of pure and dry AP/HMTD. Hope this helps your mixing dilemma that you go on about so much.:P
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 16-8-2012 at 09:18


If the components won't be mixed at almost molecular level, then forget about the ap/hmtd acting like fuel and increasing the velocity. The bad method gives a chance to static electricity accident. If I mix, I'd add 2-3% of fuel to the AN.
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badabooom
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[*] posted on 16-8-2012 at 13:05


I said nothing about increasing the velocity of the mixture. The purpose of mixing the AP and AN is merely to get more bang for the buck and to be able to have a cap sensitive booster for something like ANFO. In fact mixing the two will cause a sharp drop in the V.O.D from the ~5000 m.s of AP, but it still allows for a good earth moving explosive.

And static will not be an issue if its mixed in the PAPER bag, its when plastic is used that it becomes a concern, although i have never ever been able to set AP off with static even intentionally with 20KV. Only when the arc was directed across AP with 40Kv and in a constant arc was I able to set it off, in which case it no longer classifies as static electricity.

What i gave was some advice out of experience, use it/don't use it.
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 16-8-2012 at 19:52


I just don't see how 5000+m/s explosive would reduce the vel. of 3500-anfo. It would add a bit velocity but the big advantage is the increased sensitivity witch should allow much better densities.
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badabooom
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[*] posted on 17-8-2012 at 02:15


you have it the other way around, the AN reduces the vod of the AP, and indeed the AP contributes a little so that the velocity would increase by a very tiny amount. The velocity increase is perportional to the % of AP in the mix. Its all semantics the way you look at it, is the glass half empty or half full...

[Edited on 17-8-2012 by badabooom]
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Black Dove
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[*] posted on 22-6-2013 at 13:07


I was wondering why mixing HMTD & AN is dangerous? Is it because of friction? I always use powdered AN. I am trying to find substitute materials I can mix into the AN other than AL. I have heard that Magnesium powdered will produce a stronger and brighter detonation! I use HMTD for my detonators and also as most of my HE fillers but Im looking for a more stable mix. Im going to try and make some RDX.
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[*] posted on 22-6-2013 at 14:35


If you have HMTD, TATP or another primer, it is much more dangerous than any common explosive like TNT, RDX, PETN or even NG. You must always wait for an unexpected explosion. If one cap with 1 gr of HMTD goes off, the worst case scenario is losing one (may be two) fingers. That's all. But when you mix HMTD with AN, resulting mixture will have sensitivity like pure HMTD. This is why such action must be avoided. Sensitive explosives must not be prepared (stored) in large quantities. If you want to make AN more sensitive (more powerful) mix it with didnitrotoluene, di-trinitronaphtalene or ammonium picrate. I heard, that magnesium reacts with trace amounts of nitric acid, which always presents in AN. This reaction goes with self-acceleration. Therefore. contact between AN and Mg must be excluded.

[Edited on 22-6-2013 by caterpillar]




Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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AndersHoveland
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[*] posted on 22-6-2013 at 15:28


I think there has been a similar discussion in this forum before, about potential advantages of combining acetone peroxide with AN.
I believe the general consensus was that, despite an ideal OB ratio, such a composition did not really offer advantages that would justify itself.
And furthermore, the issue of chemical compatibility was raised, because AN is acidic, and organic peroxides are prone to hydrolysis in storage if the pH is not neutral.

[Edited on 22-6-2013 by AndersHoveland]
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papaya
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[*] posted on 23-6-2013 at 02:38


Quote: Originally posted by Black Dove  
I am trying to find substitute materials I can mix into the AN other than AL.

Melt your AN with urotropine 91/9 % ratio then powder it when cools down, I've heard a very powerful mixture is obtained, but also hygroscopic.
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[*] posted on 23-6-2013 at 08:19


well of what i know theres usually being mixed in a few percentages of water when APAN is mixed, and as AP is very similar if not the most absolutely similar compound to HMTD then the same procedure could be used..

i dont think you let it dry out, i think you keep it mushy, as peroxides generally doesnt care about moisture really, so that shouldnt be much of a problem but you might wanna have a 1:1 booster for it also..

1:1 can however go bang without anything else but a flame, but its pretty weak

lets not get this thread closed, as what happened with the other thread that was somehow turned onto APAN (was i the one who did that??? :S)

as ive seen stated mixing in a somewhat inert secondary with a primary would just decrease the sensitivity of the primary, which is the real threat youre handling, so its a way of making the primary safer, and getting the AN up on a useful sensitivity

anyways why not just ANSU, Sugar Dynamon, AN:Sugar 85:15 by weight..?
more powerful than ANFO, and more sensitive (dont take AN mixtures as being actually sensitive, doubtfully you can set it off with a hammer)




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 23-6-2013 at 08:47


AP and HMTD are quite different. HMTD is chmically very unstable. AP is physically very unstable(big crystals).
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[*] posted on 23-6-2013 at 14:49


hm, yes i read that you suppose the crystals are relatively larger due to the longer chemical reaction time, in which i must say is a pretty neat observation, i would most likely have missed that hah..

but didnt know they were having physical - chemical differences as what you say, this might explain why HMTD once went bang (50g?) when it was set to chill in a fridge for 2 days (dont know what went through the guys mind.. 2 days.. or was it even more?)
this is just a rumor tho, but its likely as it was from a guy i know wasnt just throwing random lines up..

question is..
wouldnt you be able to dissolve it in something, and thereafter recrystallize it..?

or perhaps dump the solution containing the primary onto the AN, creating a slurry with very little liquid in, ensuring that the ammonal would still be decently easy to set off, possibly if using flammable solvent also making a nice and evenly spread out thermobaric bang?




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
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killswitch
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[*] posted on 25-6-2013 at 19:25


Don't mess around with HMTD. In terms of friction sensitivity, the only things worse are Armstrongs (red phosphorus+potassium chlorate) and death mix (magnesium+sulfur+potassium bromate+ammonium nitrate).

TATP can be desensitized somewhat by dissolving in acetone (after the bicarb wash) and quickly evaporating the solvent for tiny, uniform crystals. Of course, these only last a day or so before sublimating, rather than the weeks of larger TATP crystals.

Note that if you do not recrystallize your TATP from acetone, acid remains trapped in the crystals and their sensitivity is very high.
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AndersHoveland
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[*] posted on 26-6-2013 at 09:59


Quote: Originally posted by killswitch  
Note that if you do not recrystallize your TATP from acetone, acid remains trapped in the crystals and their sensitivity is very high.
Are you sure it is sensitivity that becomes high?
The stability is reduced if it contaminated with acid. "stability" in this case is chemical stability in storage. Perhaps you were confused and thought this meant it became more sensitive.

If HMTD is not neutralized, it tends to degrade after several weeks in storage. I think TATP also tends to become less chemically stable in storage if there is much acid present.

With TATP, the more it is crystallized, the more sensitive it tends to be.

[Edited on 26-6-2013 by AndersHoveland]
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Ral123
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[*] posted on 26-6-2013 at 11:06


Oh wait, AP can be recrystalized, I thought I need some fancy solvent. My AP, washed with only distilled water may turn out very stable(if I find something from where I left it to test for storage stability)
For HMTD I suspect it's most reliable impact sensitive thing from the readily made. The other mixtures are very dependent on particle size.
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franklyn
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[*] posted on 26-6-2013 at 20:28


I have not done this but those who live for risk should
find this entertaining. Don't be selfish , post your results.
I'm intersted how this compares to vaseline chlorate mixture.


23 % of TATP by weight with NaClO3 is oxygen balanced.

C9H18O6 + 7 NaClO3 => 7 NaCl + 9 CO2 + 9 H2O

or for faster velocity.

( 1/3 ) 34 % of TATP by weight with NaClO3

C9H18O6 + 4 NaClO3 => 4 NaCl + 9 CO + 9 H2O


A question of whether these two can be co-crystallized
is worth investigating.

100 grams NaClO3 dissolves in 100 grams of water at 20 ºC

31 grams NaClO3 dissolves in 100 grams of 50/50 water and methanol
( see attached chart below for pure organic solvents )


It seems a possible approach would be to add a saturated water
solution of NaClO3 to a saturated acetone solution of TATP and
let it settle out , provided it doesn't partition into layers.

Say 1 gram TATP in 6 grams Acetone
and 2 grams NaClO3 in 4 grams H2O


______________________________________


51 grams NaClO4 dissolves in 100 grams Acetone at 25 ºC
51 grams NaClO4 dissolves in 100 grams Methanol at 25 ºC

Perhaps a saturated Acetone solution of TATP can be added to
a saturated Acetone solution of NaClO4 and allowed to settle out.

37.6 %
C9H18O6 + 3 NaClO4 => 3 NaCl + 9 CO + 9 H2O

37 % is approximately 10 parts TATP to 17 parts perchlorate by weight.

______________________________________


Methylene Chloride should solvate about the same as Toluene shown below
Xylene should work well too.


TATP Solvents.gif - 9kB
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franklyn
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[*] posted on 27-6-2013 at 20:32
- continued from immediately above here.


Since H2O2 is decomposed by basic substances , compatible salts are near pH
neutral or acid. The low pH however promotes reaction with other materials in
solution, dissolving Cu, Ag, Hg.
An interesting exception is the ClO3- ion which neutral or alkaline is not reactive.
ClO4- ion is not reactive at any pH and it is used in Mg(ClO4)2 as a drying agent
when concentrating H2O2.
Interaction with organic peroxides is the same.


.
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[*] posted on 1-7-2013 at 02:53


Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Are you sure it is sensitivity that becomes high?
The stability is reduced if it contaminated with acid. "stability" in this case is chemical stability in storage. Perhaps you were confused and thought this meant it became more sensitive.


A lower barrier to decomposition should not just affect shelf life, but sensitivity as well. The sensitivity of explosives is a manifestation of the kinetic barriers to degradation. Physical impact applies energy to the system. But if you want to juggle water balloons bulging with unwashed nitroglycerine, be my guest. Please just do it somewhere desolate and lonely.

[Edited on 1-7-2013 by madscientist]




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[*] posted on 15-7-2013 at 07:30


TATP + CHCL3 + Al

Given tha extraordinary solubility of TATP in Chloroform , practically
11 parts TATP to 10 parts Chloroform by weight , at room temperature ,
adding Aluminum is a breeze , no dangerous mechanical mixing of dry
powders. A near stoichiometric mixture then is :

TATP 33 , CHCL3 30 , Al 22

It should be readily detonable and quite powerful.

Warning
Evaporation of Chloroform which occurs continuously will deposit a
film of TATP making this susceptable to unintentional initiation from
friction. This should not be kept for longer than the time to prepare
it to be set off where it is mixed and should not be carried.

.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2013 at 10:08


Chloroform and aluminum powder also form explosive mixtures. The TATP will act as dispersed initiator.
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[*] posted on 15-7-2013 at 10:57


What if peroxide forms phosgene with chloroform (hypothetically) ?
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[*] posted on 15-7-2013 at 12:57


I am sure that chloroform explosives are both dangerous and impractical, but what would the detonation velocity of a chloroform - aluminum mixture be? For that matter, what would a safe yet effective chloroform/aluminum ratio be? Exactly how stable would this compound be (1-absolutely 10 - worse than nitroglycerin and guaranteed spontaneous ignition)? Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe that a TATP (or any other explosive) initiator would be necessary.
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