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Author: Subject: Sassafras Essential Oil
ItsAChitzen
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[*] posted on 19-6-2012 at 10:42


Quote: Originally posted by gutter_ca  
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/chem_prog/index.html

End users need not be licensed for small amounts.


I can't find what constitutes a small amount...looking...
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[*] posted on 19-6-2012 at 11:26


Quote: Originally posted by ItsAChitzen  
Quote: Originally posted by gutter_ca  
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/chem_prog/index.html

End users need not be licensed for small amounts.


I can't find what constitutes a small amount...looking...


<4 kg (!) http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/21cfr/cfr/1310/1310_04.htm




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[*] posted on 19-6-2012 at 11:49


Quote:

I can't find what constitutes a small amount...looking...

You sure seem to have convinced them of your bona fides ─ just goes to show; you should never (mis)underestimate the power of correct English usage . . . ;)

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[*] posted on 19-6-2012 at 12:40


Quote: Originally posted by hissingnoise  

You sure seem to have convinced them of your bona fides ─ just goes to show; you should never (mis)underestimate the power of correct English usage . . . ;)



I was beginning to think that it was going sour. I found some place that has some, as well as other essential oils I wanted. Thanks to all who helped out. Also, I eventually found where I would have found that link you gave me - I apparently have no instinct for searching through documents.
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[*] posted on 19-6-2012 at 14:07


This thread has fail, and win written all over it, wtf dude? I have to give you at least some props though, you inspired me to register an account here, thanks!

Pure sassafras oil is banned per the FDA as an additive to soap, so let's just give that one a rest. If you were using it for legitimate purposes you could have easily ordered from one of the few real deal sources still left in the US. Google search could find in <1 min. But again, it is not allowed in soap, most folks uses the fragrance oil as a sub since it contains no safrole, and I for one would not want to bath with a bar of soap that contains 5-10, 28g or safrole per your math. Safrole has no place in a amateur chem lab, period.

With that being said, you just need to look harder, and smarter. It's still around, #1 seller on mystic ways and the max per month was raised from 8 to 9 oz just recently. For you soap making, you should have no problem ordering an oz or two, should make several cases of anise scented soap, - carcinogen, but who cares as long as you smell good right.

But, you called the DEA. I am calling BS on this one, for obvious reasons. Recent posts would indicate you have at least some experience with chemistry, maybe amateur? Then to come here looking for this, and calling the DEA, asking about a permit, just setting yourself up for a big bag of fail dude. Those who know wtf they are doing make sure they procure the goods first, before anything else. Quick test, drop or two into 98% H2SO4, dark red/black, and it forms a polymer. That when you know it's real, and yes, it is still around, you just have to know where, and more importantly, when, to find it. Qual
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[*] posted on 19-6-2012 at 15:23


Quote: Originally posted by Qualitative  
This thread has fail, and win written all over it, wtf dude? I have to give you at least some props though, you inspired me to register an account here, thanks!

Pure sassafras oil is banned per the FDA as an additive to soap, so let's just give that one a rest. If you were using it for legitimate purposes you could have easily ordered from one of the few real deal sources still left in the US. Google search could find in <1 min. But again, it is not allowed in soap, most folks uses the fragrance oil as a sub since it contains no safrole, and I for one would not want to bath with a bar of soap that contains 5-10, 28g or safrole per your math. Safrole has no place in a amateur chem lab, period.

With that being said, you just need to look harder, and smarter. It's still around, #1 seller on mystic ways and the max per month was raised from 8 to 9 oz just recently. For you soap making, you should have no problem ordering an oz or two, should make several cases of anise scented soap, - carcinogen, but who cares as long as you smell good right.

But, you called the DEA. I am calling BS on this one, for obvious reasons. Recent posts would indicate you have at least some experience with chemistry, maybe amateur? Then to come here looking for this, and calling the DEA, asking about a permit, just setting yourself up for a big bag of fail dude. Those who know wtf they are doing make sure they procure the goods first, before anything else. Quick test, drop or two into 98% H2SO4, dark red/black, and it forms a polymer. That when you know it's real, and yes, it is still around, you just have to know where, and more importantly, when, to find it. Qual


You are a moron. It is banned by the IFA for use in soaps, not the FDA. If you can show me differently, then fine, this post doesn't matter. I am not an IFA member. It is banned by the FDA in food. So, you decided to come in and try and derail my post, which, by the way, is done as far as I am concerned.

You are a serious piece of shit for bringing up drugs. I'm not worried about "procuring the goods". But, I assume that you are in that arena, since you seem to be so inclined to give me pointers. Have fun trolling somewhere else, please.
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[*] posted on 21-6-2012 at 10:56


Quote:
carcinogen, but who cares as long as you smell good right.


It's actually probably not a human carcinogen. That conclusion was based on rat studies (not human epidemiology) and rats metabolze safrole differently than we do. I might add that many things that are carcinogenic when consumed would be harmless when used externally.




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[*] posted on 22-6-2012 at 07:01


Quote: Originally posted by ItsAChitzen  
Now that this is out of the way...wtf? I make soaps and I cannot find this product anywhere. Am I out of luck?


I am genuinely rather interested in the smell of things & perfumes. I seem to recall sassafras is now not allowed in cosmetic product applications.

Edit: See you've discovered the bans on it in those and food products.

Quote:
I don't know what they dilute it with.


Probably carrier (largely odourless) oil, e.g. almond, that's what's done with a lot of the massage oils.

My mum was / is into aromatherapy oils, so I grew up with loads of the bottles hanging around. I recall her suggesting I put some on my temples, neat, when I had a headache as a kid. Burned like a utter b*****d! Hence the need for the carrier oil, disregarding the cost of using it neat.

She also informed me, as a child, that the stinging of Savlon (a disinfectant) was, quote "the germs washing out". Later in life I tried leaving some on my skin. Ended up with chemical burns... :D Checking the pack for myself, it was suitable for washing bins at 1:10 dilution.

[Edited on 22-6-2012 by peach]
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[*] posted on 22-6-2012 at 11:29


Yeah, the IFA has banned a lot of things that make perfumers pretty angry... oakmoss being a particularly high-profile example. Remember, though, that this doesn't mean you can't put it in your products. These IFA restrictions only apply to IFA members. I hear people rant about the deadly METHANOL all the time. Yes, if you drink straight methanol to the face, it is bad for you. However, life seems to not be as simple as "put this in you, you will die". Methanol is contained in every alcoholic beverage ever full stop. Safrole used to be taken internally all the time. I would be more concerned about air and water quality than wearing safrole at some point.

As to the concerns of putting 1 oz in a lb of soap....I didn't say that. I said that those are instructions for many candle recipes, and I envisioned soap being more like candles than like perfume. It is with other components.
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[*] posted on 22-6-2012 at 14:18


Why are you so intent on putting a suspected carcinogen/mutagen into your soap. Yes there is evidence that some carcinogenic metabolites of safrole found in mice do not occur in humans but that doesn't mean it's safe. I find it ridiculous that any soap-maker would want to make sassafras smelling soap so badly they would try to obtain a potentially dangerous perfume additive which happens to also be an illegal (List I) compound which is a direct precursor to one of the world most popular recreational drugs. And you don't get to be all high and mighty on your pedestal because someone accuses you of trying to synthesize a recreational drug after you ask for a source of it's direct and illegal precursor.



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[*] posted on 22-6-2012 at 16:06


It's a weed tree around here. I've got several that I continually try to run over when I mow in this one piece of property I own. If I wanted it, it wouldn't be a problem for me to obtain.
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[*] posted on 24-6-2012 at 23:36


Smell of the day: Bubblegum

I have an old, miniature bottle of sassafras here on the desk. Smell wise...

The first thing I'd say would be eucalyptus, but it's not as brash and clear; eucalyptus being the nuclear option. Then maybe menthol and liquorish. Then a slightly spicy smell. It has a medical like smell compared to the more common cookery spices. It reminds me, a lot, of going into old pharmacies. A kind of nose unblocking, throat clearing lozenge smell.

At first I thought, this would probably turn people off in soap. People don't tend to like smelling of clinical environments; bleach / iodine / snot clearing sweets. I like it myself, do you have TCP in the US? Smell it once, you'll be able to smell it on people who've walked past five minutes earlier. A guy I was working with described it as 'girl repellent'.

But I suppose there are elements about sassafras that would actually be beneficial in soap. A lot of spice based soaps smell sugary sweet or autumnal and like cinnamon apple pie, or cherry. Those are great, but I think at least a small amount of this in the background, as far as the perception of getting washed goes, would add to that clean feeling; but it'd be less harsh than the more modern ways of achieving that. E.g. the same way the toothpaste people now will add some of the flavors, like mint, and foaming agents purely to add to the clean sensation - the mint doesn't do much germ killing or plaque removing. Another example would be menthol and mint, or citrus, in shampoos and body washes.

I do still doubt people would like it in the soap on it's own, it'd need something else in there.

The closest example I could give would be coal tar soap. I don't know how popular that is in the US or if only the older guys will remember it, but coal tar soap has a very distinctive (almost medical) smell.

Interestingly, what humans consciously think of as smelling attractive is quite often blurred by what smells nice to eat and other base drives. To test things like perfumes and deodorants, the companies will do some fairly funny stuff. One such thing being, the wetness test. They wrap a tiny humidity sensor in some latex foam, insert that into the corresponding part of a girl, and then she sniffs various scent sticks whilst the sensor feeds into some datalogging software. The idea being, the wetter things get, the better the product will sell due to it having a higher (albeit subconscious) sex appeal. The vast majority of common perfumes, aftershaves and deodorants (formulated by smell alone) score below some that are much more simple or odd. One of the more obvious examples being fresh male sweat. Two of the more obscure examples being... cucumber and liquorish. :D So maybe there's some application for that liquorish note after all.

"Science Madness... cosmetics customer services speaking."

Next acquisition: an old Juicy Fruit wrapper or stick.

{edit}Anyone who's found this post looking for sassafras, don't PM me. The bottle is a random one off from a company that was around at the start of the last century, not an online supplier.

[Edited on 25-6-2012 by peach]
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[*] posted on 25-6-2012 at 15:47


I can see the appeal to this oil. I went down the street and pulled a leaf of a sassafras tree and crushed it in my hand. In my opinion it smell very nice.



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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 10:11


Quote: Originally posted by crazyboy  
Why are you so intent on putting a suspected carcinogen/mutagen into your soap. Yes there is evidence that some carcinogenic metabolites of safrole found in mice do not occur in humans but that doesn't mean it's safe. I find it ridiculous that any soap-maker would want to make sassafras smelling soap so badly they would try to obtain a potentially dangerous perfume additive which happens to also be an illegal (List I) compound which is a direct precursor to one of the world most popular recreational drugs. And you don't get to be all high and mighty on your pedestal because someone accuses you of trying to synthesize a recreational drug after you ask for a source of it's direct and illegal precursor.


Please know what you are talking about before you post. It is not illegal. If you would have read the rest of the postings, you would know that. Btw, I am getting high and mighty because I specifically told people not to do that and s/he did it anyway.
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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 10:16


I hate the perspective on a lot of these chemicals. WHY DO YOU NEED THEM?!?!?! "Because I want it" should be good enough. If I'm not doing anything illegal, it seems like the nose-in-ass treatment is unwarranted. Maybe I should bomb these other people when they need oxidizing agents, saying, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT CAN DO IF YOU EAT IT!!!!111 WHY DO YOU WANT SUCH A DANGEROUS CHEMICAL?!?!?!?!!?!!?!"
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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 10:19


Temper temper... I think phosphorus would be very interesting to do some chemistry with but I accept that it simply isn't available here. Yet, in Europe it is. Frustrating? Yes. Worth flipping out on a message board about? Not really.

Perhaps there are some perfumery forums where members have discussed combining several components and extracts to make a scent that is very similar to the ingredient you are in search of?

[Edited on 26-6-2012 by Mailinmypocket]
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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 12:01


Quote: Originally posted by 99chemicals  
I can see the appeal to this oil. I went down the street and pulled a leaf of a sassafras tree and crushed it in my hand. In my opinion it smell very nice.


The smell of root bark, regular bark, and leaf are all quite different. The root bark smells strongly of root beer whereas the other plant parts do not. And indeed, the essential oil content of the leaves is extremely small (0.025% or maybe it was 0.0025%, I can't recall) and quite probably the constituents are different than those of the root bark oil.




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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 12:48


Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket  
Temper temper... I think phosphorus would be very interesting to do some chemistry with but I accept that it simply isn't available here. Yet, in Europe it is. Frustrating? Yes. Worth flipping out on a message board about? Not really.

Perhaps there are some perfumery forums where members have discussed combining several components and extracts to make a scent that is very similar to the ingredient you are in search of?

[Edited on 26-6-2012 by Mailinmypocket]


I don't see where my temper comes into play here, but I assume that you are referring to the CAPS. Also, your outlook allows these laws to survive. Just because you give up doesn't mean everyone else should.

I have already addressed multiple points in your post...
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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 13:17


Well, the way you express yourself seems to indicate anger... or something (CAPS generally indicate yelling, and nobody has written to you in caps so far in this thread I believe). Anyways, just an observation on my part, I could be wrong though.

That being said, I do not necessarily agree with certain things being banned completely due to some morons misusing them for illegal purposes. I did not say I gave up on my goals either, I simply said I didn't feel it necessary to get angry over something I cannot change. If i wanted phosphorus THAT badly I would be able to try and make it as we have several threads here alone that show ingenious methods used by other members to make the element and who have done so successfully. I simply do not have the time or space at the moment and I accept the fact that complaining to my supplier and the like to make it available will not help. There are so many other aspects in chemistry for me to experiment in that I don't mind putting that particular project on the back burner for who knows how long.

That is why I suggested trying to search amongst the perfumist and soap making communities for alternatives. Maybe somebody in those specific fields has figured out a way to overcome the barrier you are facing. I have read your previous posts and I understand it may be hard to find something that smells exactly like what you are looking for. But you shouldn't give up.



[Edited on 26-6-2012 by Mailinmypocket]
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[*] posted on 26-6-2012 at 14:07


Quote: Originally posted by Mailinmypocket  

That being said, I do not necessarily agree with certain things being banned completely due to some morons misusing them for illegal purposes.
[Edited on 26-6-2012 by Mailinmypocket]


I don't think that you do. However, you seem to be taking my post out of context. I only said that after multiple posts "calling me out LULZ" on my usage.
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[*] posted on 5-10-2014 at 07:55


Quote: Originally posted by gutter_ca  
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/chem_prog/index.html

End users need not be licensed for small amounts.


it would have been far more helpful to provide a link to specific text (including a text excerpt even) than just a link to the whole chemical diversion website.

The real issue though is not formal licensing requirements, it is the difficulty of being able to buy it, regardless of formal requirements. See:
"Handlers of safrole need to know their customers so as not to become an unwitting supplier to a clandestine MDMA laboratory."
and
"It is unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally to possess or distribute safrole, knowing, or having reasonable cause to believe, the safrole will be used to manufacture MDMA."
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/chem_prog/advisories/safro...

Random people coming in to a website to buy a safrole containing product are not "known" by the business (unless perhaps buying other stuff over an extended period), and the open-ended legal risk (the DEA and prosecutors get to decide after the fact what is "reasonable cause") makes businesses unwilling to sell it to you, period.

[Note added: Just to hit this point hard: the DEA is in essence requiring vendors to vouch for their customers. This makes it all but impossible to obtain any of a large number of substances that are on a variety of DEA lists (I count at least four distinct, almost entirely non-over-lapping lists; together it is lengthy).]

And then there is the real possibility that you will end up on a DEA watch list as a potential drug lab.

[Don't think this is guaranteed to be entirely harmless to the law-abiding citizen, not in an age of continually evolving "patriot" measures to make us "safe", when you need government approval to fly or access your bank accounts.]

[Edited on 5-10-2014 by careysub]
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[*] posted on 6-10-2014 at 18:47


My yard is literally littered with these trees. I just personally don't have the want or need to bother with large scale steam distillation of them. If you really do live in the SE US, I can't imagine you not being able to find this oil supply. I have enough shoots alone just on my property to have probably 5-10 kG of root bark to distill if I had the want or initiative to do so. Maybe I just live in a very plentiful area though. (Appalachian Mountains)



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[*] posted on 6-10-2014 at 18:57


Quote: Originally posted by zenosx  
My yard is literally littered with these trees.


Do you have these also in your yard? In my youth I was an avid lepidopterist. :)



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