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Fusionfire
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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 07:52
Scam or not?


http://www.morempgnow.co.uk/HOW_IT_WORKS.aspx

Hmm...pseudoscientific talk, no rigorous technical analysis, 070 premium rate number...

Quote:

HOW IT WORKS
Hydrogen on demand fuel enhancement systems for the transport sector

This hydrogen dry cell design is a circulating system in which the water travels from the reservoir through the cell and then back into the reservoir. The H2/O2 gas is generated in the cell and flows back through the water,into the bubbler,through the dryer into the engine.No water pumps are needed.
The key to this circulating system is the cell. This cell design acts like a pump creating a self siphoning system that carries the gas and water back into the reservoir. The reservoir stores the water that is circulated through the system as well as acts as a bubbler system separating the water from the gas and lastly helps cool operating temperatures.
Why does it work?

A supplemental hydrogen fuel enhancement system is just that, supplemental to the use of petrol/ diesel in your vehicle. Use of a system is not an attempt to run your vehicle/vessel on hydroxy/oxyhydrogen gas exclusively. Instead, it is used as a catalyst to more efficiently burn the petrol/diesel that you are already using. How? By introducing an element which burns at roughly ten times the speed of either petrol or diesel, propagates the combustion in the cylinder and combusts the longer hydrocarbon chains which normally pass out of the exhaust as emissions turning waste into energy.

You’re probably wondering why the combustion process would not already be efficient since it was designed by top engineers at auto manufacturers, and why supplemental hydrogen isn’t incorporated into our vehicles today. The answer is found in a question? When a new vehicle is designed, who is it designed for? EVERYONE. When new cars are made, they have to be marketable not just on the basis of fuel economy, but also on the basis of horsepower, torque, and user intervention. So you might be seeking the highest MPG rating while someone else will see horsepower as a major buying factor. Even the person seeking highest MPG might not purchase a supplemental hydrogen vehicle if he/she would have to regularly check and refill not only the gasoline but also the water and electrolyte used to produce the hydroxy gas. This is where user intervention becomes a factor. You see? Every car design is a COMPROMISE. It has to be marketable to a large demographic of drivers. There are many drivers who would not know how to lift the bonnet on a car to top up the oil or the water, or to even check the tyres. This unit is not suitable for this type of driver, you have to be able to pour water into a container now and again (approximately every 2 weeks)

So, by using a supplemental hydrogen system we are simply taking a vehicle that’s compromised and inefficient and bringing it up to a higher level of efficient combustion.
How does it work?

An electrolyzer uses the process of electrolysis to change water into hydroxy gas (hydrogen and oxygen or hho gas). It consists of electrodes that produce hydroxy gas when submerged in water made conductive with electrolyte, such as potassium hydroxide/sodium sulphate. Electrical current from the vehicle’s battery is then applied. Only a small amount of hydroxy gas must be produced by an electrolyzer to make the combustion process more efficient. The standard of gas production is measured in liters per minute. (LPM) 1 LPM is considered baseline for a functional supplemental hydrogen electrolyzer. The hydroxy gas output of the electrolyzer is routed to the vehicle’s air intake and vacuum intake manifold. The smaller molecules of the hydroxy gas strike the larger pre-heated fuel molecules and combust breaking down the covalent bonds even further and atomizing the gasoline or diesel hence we are adding a combustaion catalyst.

ECU Compensation method: If an electrolyzer is used in a vehicle on cars with an oxygen sensor the effect can be negated. This is because the ECU of the vehicle will detect more oxygen in the exhaust via the oxygen sensors. More oxygen in the exhaust usually tells the ECU your vehicle the fuel mixture is running lean, with too much air being mixed into it via the air intake. It then compensates by adding more gasoline to the mixture, and reducing the air induction, which defeats the gains of the supplemental hydrogen system. The combustion of hydroxy gas produces a large increase in oxygen in the exhaust, therefore to see gains you must compensate for this.

Emission/pollution reduction
Emissions and air pollution from your vehicle are greatly reduced while using supplemental hydrogen because more of your gasoline or diesel is being completely used up in the combustion chamber itself and not being burned in your catalytic converter. The bi-product of burning hydroxy gas is heated water vapour, The higher efficiency combustion cleans the inside of your engine and removes damaging carbon build ups from valves and pistons and piston rings and reduces performance robbing sludge. Clean the piston rings returns compression this is noticeable in more power. Using a supplemental hydrogen system helps the environment twice by decreasing fuel consumption while also reducing pollutants and particulate matter.


Proper installation and regular checks on your water will ensure the hydrogen cell runs efficiently and optimally and has a long life. We therefore recommend installation by a professional auto mechanic familiar with our product. Good installation and proper service will ensure that you get savings AND ensure the product has a long life.
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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 08:03


Dunno, haven't read all of it yet. I do remember there was a well known scam some 15 years ago involving Lord Archer, who got badly burnt fingers by investing in such a scheme...


And of course there is this bit:

Faradays law and the relation to Hydrogen on demand, is this relative to this revised combustion process? Our theory is this should not be used wholly as a relative comparison of what happens in this process and hence comparisons should not be drawn upon.... why..?
If engines were 100% efficient then yes...! However Internal combustion engines are not 100% efficient, if they were we wouldnt have emission problems ! Typically the most efficient diesel engine is 50% efficient, and Petrol/Gasoline engine even less at 30-35% efficiency.
Recent Thesis " Keoghs Law"... (ex Karel do Grote University) also proves there is a free energy source,the alternator current required to run with zero amps and 8 amps clearly shows exactly the same specific fuel consumption, only when we move the load above 8 amps to10 and 12 amps do we see a fuel increase. The reason for this is the alternator and belts take energy to propell them from the engine even without a load, it is the same energy used to propell the alternator from zero to 8 amps... free energy...!


…which is quatch. The low energy efficiency of heat machines is a simply consequence of Thermodynamics, see ‘Carnot Cycle’ for instance.

Even if this thing actually generates H2/O2 (a BIG IF!) the energy used to make it must come from somewhere!



[Edited on 10-7-2012 by blogfast25]




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Endimion17
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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 08:22


The SECOND you see this word:

HHO

You can be absolutely 100% sure it's a type of scam. No exceptions. Scam.

YouTube is infested with videos on "HHO", and it's just fucking irritating. You can't find a decent clip describing simple electrolysis without tons of hoax bullshit piling up in the results.


BTW, I'm curious, is there a scientific name in American or British English for a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen that detonates when ignited?
We call it "plin praskavac" in Croatian (plin = gas, praskavac = "the one that produces a banging noise"). We also have a name for 1:1 mixture of hydrogen and chlorine, and we call it "klorov praskavac".

The name "plin praskavac" is well known in the scientific literature, and I believe it dates to the work of Lavoisier. Every kid finishing elementary school knows about it.
However I've never heard an English name which isn't pseudoscientific, i.e. connected to hoaxes like "water car" and "free energy from water", etc.

[Edited on 10-7-2012 by Endimion17]




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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 08:33


"...However Internal combustion engines are not 100% efficient, if they were we wouldnt have emission problems ! ..."

The above line (just picking it out) is bullshit.

The only way you could have an engine that gives out zero emmissions is to have an engine that is infinitely efficient (uses no fuel)
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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 08:38


Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  
Dunno, haven't read all of it yet. I do remember there was a well known scam some 15 years ago involving Lord Archer, who got badly burnt fingers by investing in such a scheme...


And of course there is this bit:

Faradays law and the relation to Hydrogen on demand, is this relative to this revised combustion process? Our theory is this should not be used wholly as a relative comparison of what happens in this process and hence comparisons should not be drawn upon.... why..?
If engines were 100% efficient then yes...! However Internal combustion engines are not 100% efficient, if they were we wouldnt have emission problems ! Typically the most efficient diesel engine is 50% efficient, and Petrol/Gasoline engine even less at 30-35% efficiency.
Recent Thesis " Keoghs Law"... (ex Karel do Grote University) also proves there is a free energy source,the alternator current required to run with zero amps and 8 amps clearly shows exactly the same specific fuel consumption, only when we move the load above 8 amps to10 and 12 amps do we see a fuel increase. The reason for this is the alternator and belts take energy to propell them from the engine even without a load, it is the same energy used to propell the alternator from zero to 8 amps... free energy...!


…which is quatch. The low energy efficiency of heat machines is a simply consequence of Thermodynamics, see ‘Carnot Cycle’ for instance.

Even if this thing actually generates H2/O2 (a BIG IF!) the energy used to make it must come from somewhere!



[Edited on 10-7-2012 by blogfast25]


LOL I didn't check out the "Benefits" page. I was just looking at the "How it works" page, rolled my eyes and decided I wanted my time back.

Free energy, huh? The myth of the Perpetual Motion Machine of the 2nd Kind (PMM2K) lives on...

Can't find Eric Keogh's thesis from Karel de Grote University.

For a company with a lot of self-claimed sales there is no VAT or company registration number. Also no geographical business address.


[Edited on 10-7-2012 by Fusionfire]
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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 11:08


It may be of use, I wrote a brief article some time ago in Prepubs about the use of Hydrogen fuell cells in cars.



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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 11:47


Quote: Originally posted by Hexavalent  
It may be of use, I wrote a brief article some time ago in Prepubs about the use of Hydrogen fuell cells in cars.


You've been punked:

http://www.eco-scams.com/archives/710 (specifically on morempgnow.co.uk)




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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 14:51


Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
BTW, I'm curious, is there a scientific name in American or British English for a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen that detonates when ignited?


Yes, it is called Brown's gas and oxyhydrogen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen

The more interesting part for me is when it is used for welding and cutting.
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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 15:01


Detritus or somewhere else?
Is it worthy of debale?
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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 15:31


I am aiming to build one of these oxyhydrogen torches for small tasks such as sealing ampoules, basic manipulation of glass tubing, and pulling capillaries.Perhaps in a month or so I'll be able to chime in with some useful scientific perspective.
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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 16:58


Quote: Originally posted by vmelkon  
Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
BTW, I'm curious, is there a scientific name in American or British English for a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen that detonates when ignited?


Yes, it is called Brown's gas and oxyhydrogen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen

The more interesting part for me is when it is used for welding and cutting.


No, it's definitively not called Brown's gas because that's a name connected to the hoax. Nobody calls it Brown's gas except conspiracy theory loonies crackpots and naive ignorants. The same goes for the "HHO gas".

How come I've never came across "oxyhydrogen"?
So is that the name used in science textbooks American kids use in elementary schools?




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[*] posted on 10-7-2012 at 17:05


The website is highly likely to be a scam.

1, Inappropriate use of the word "catalyst". Typical combustion reactions alone is self-sustaining, as long as you got oxygen and fuel, no catalyst needed.

2, If the combustion chamber doesn't have enough oxygen, there is no way to burn all the leftover fuel. The hydrogen and oxygen instantly combusts to form water, so that doesn't provide oxygen either.

3, Hydrogen/oxygen gas doesn't work to combust excess fuel. Combusting hydrogen/oxygen gas cannot break the covalent bonds of the fuel molecule and release energy. At the best the fuel is "cracked" into smaller hydrocarbons, but that is released into the atmosphere and wasted as well.

4, Combustion of a mix of hydrogen-oxygen gas produced from electrolysis will only release water, not increase the amount of oxygen in the combustion chamber.

That and more.

[Edited on 11-7-2012 by weiming1998]
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[*] posted on 11-7-2012 at 05:30


Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
The website is highly likely to be a scam.



[Edited on 11-7-2012 by weiming1998]



It IS a scam. The company (and so many like her) claims to make energy out of nothing. But since as the energy for electrolysis (not a 100 % efficient process even) comes straight from the alternator (and thus from the ICE itself!) they're claiming perpetual motion!

Apparently a British company not so long ago was awarded a grant of £20,000 (!!) to ‘develop’ this ‘technology’, full story here: http://www.eco-scams.com/archives/682

Oil Drum/save-fuel.co.uk now no longer exists (I wonder why!). But companies the world over continue to fit these expensive non-working gadgets to the cars of gullible customers...




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[*] posted on 11-7-2012 at 08:46


Let's look at it from a physics/chemistry POV.

One way to extract energy from the KE of a vehicle is during the braking sequence. This normally is simply dumped as heat. Rather than use brake pads and friction, tie the rotational energy into a generator/alternator. You hit the "brakes", and a clutch mechanism engages, turning the generator, which in turn dumps current into an electrolytic cell. Hydrogen and oxygen gas are created. Do what you want with the gases. I don't know if simply routing them into an intake manifold is going to do jack, but the fact that you are turning kinetic energy into potential (chemical) energy cannot be denied.

But simply connecting some cell to the alternator... nah. Load any generating system, it'll use more fuel.

I'm a pilot by profession. I joke with my partner by saying, when we are running low on fuel, "Hey, let's kill the galley power. Those electric ovens use hundreds of amps." And then I have to explain that yes indeed, it affects fuel economy. Load the generators, you load the turbines, and more fuel must be consumed to create an equivalent thrust. But it's trivial when you are burning 2,000 gallons per hour of kerosene. :D
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[*] posted on 11-7-2012 at 23:00


Hi guys.

I checked around with some other friends of mine in the field. The guy who runs the morempgnow website was a previous business associate of another business establishment (no further names). Somewhere along the lines a split happened and he decided to run a company along the same lines.

Apparently the technology (allegedly!) works as follows:
1) An energy investment is made to electrolyse water into H2 and O2.
2) The H2 and O2 is mixed into pre-heated diesel fuel. Solubility of H2 and O2 in diesel is higher (apparently) at high temperatures. (Can someone confirm this?)
3) The diesel/H2/O2 mix has better combustion characteristics (Any technical peer reviewed publications to this regard?)
4) The energy expense to make H2/O2 is recovered by better fuel efficiency.

My technical point of view:
1) The energy needed to make H2/O2 from water > the energy recovered from its combustion (the 2nd law of thermodynamics gets you three times: when you use electrical energy from thermal energy to make H2/O2, when you make it, and when you burn H2/O2 hoping to recover work from it).

2) It is known that the combustion characteristics of internal combustion engines is sub-optimal. For example the presence of small quantities of C, CO and H2 in exhaust shows that the combustion can be improved.

3) The crux is whether H2/O2 improves the combustion characteristics to the degree that is worth it.

[Edited on 12-7-2012 by Fusionfire]
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[*] posted on 12-7-2012 at 04:47


Fusionfire:

What you describe is slightly different from ‘standard’ ‘HHO’ scams but it appears you’re being drawn into the gobbledygook. Please don’t.

The impact of reducing (already very small) emissions on fuel economy is negligible, immeasurable small in fact. No way are you going to recover the energy put into the (inefficient) jam jar electrolysers.

The crooks from morempg.co.uk are up to their old tricks, now cloaking their scam in slightly different ‘technology’… oops, I meant quasi-science. This is not new: the HHO scam has morphed into slightly different versions of itself for decades.




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[*] posted on 12-7-2012 at 15:03


No, not fooled yet, don't worry ;)

I'm just saying what the scammers said to me, so that others may see it.

This statement by them set alarm bells ringing:

Him: "Unlike Eric's system which uses KOH, ours uses pure water which is not corrosive."

Me: "But then the conductivity of your water will be bad, and you won't be able to electrolyse it."

Him: "No, we add a pure salt to the water. So it is still pure water."

At this point I was wondering how to politely extract myself from the conversation :). I'm not sure they even have science degrees. If any a degree in marketing or politics, sounds like ;)

But all this aside I know that there are genuine efforts to improve the combustion characteristics of engines.
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[*] posted on 13-7-2012 at 05:25


Quote: Originally posted by Fusionfire  

Him: "Unlike Eric's system which uses KOH, ours uses pure water which is not corrosive."

Me: "But then the conductivity of your water will be bad, and you won't be able to electrolyse it."

Him: "No, we add a pure salt to the water. So it is still pure water."



It's precisely because they know so little about science that they can (at least half-) believe in their own nonsense. And people who rightly contradict them get dismissed as 'elitist', of a 'closed mindset' or as 'having no first-hand experience with this technology'...




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[*] posted on 13-7-2012 at 18:57


the GEET engine also claims to lyse water and utilise the hydrogen oxygen as an extra fuel source, it could be plausible but would require vigorous testing by independent researchers however all i see from the schematics is an efficient heat exchanger allowing vaporisation of heavier molecules like vegetable oil or crude oil for use as a fuel, its a semi-scam if there was a word for it, it has use but is misrepresented, anyway sorry for the deviation i will also post a schematic taken from the GEET main website

it seems the picture is too large, so here: http://pesn.com/2009/06/9501546_Paul-Pantone_of_Geet_release...
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[*] posted on 14-7-2012 at 03:04


Quote: Originally posted by rannyfash  
the GEET engine also claims to lyse water and utilise the hydrogen oxygen as an extra fuel source, it could be plausible but would require vigorous testing by independent researchers however all i see from the schematics is an efficient heat exchanger allowing vaporisation of heavier molecules like vegetable oil or crude oil for use as a fuel, its a semi-scam if there was a word for it, it has use but is misrepresented, anyway sorry for the deviation i will also post a schematic taken from the GEET main website

it seems the picture is too large, so here: http://pesn.com/2009/06/9501546_Paul-Pantone_of_Geet_release...


"During the 20 minutes of "burn-in-time" the engine must be oriented so as the reaction chamber in which the exhaust is entering is facing to magnetic North. The side where the fuel enter is facing South."

SEMI-scam?

SEMI???

:D:D:D

Dude, are you fucking serious? :D
Why is it so hard for you to recognize true crackpots? These are crackpots. School example of. For god sake, this thing on the picture doesn't do anything.

It's easy to recognize crackpot blueprints. They include so many details, but give so little of actual information. Who cares about 1/2'' galvanized pipe tees?




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blogfast25
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[*] posted on 14-7-2012 at 03:45


Mine's one where the exhaust is aligned with the Great Pyramid!

Sells like hot cross buns on Easter! :D




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[*] posted on 16-7-2012 at 15:19


Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
Quote: Originally posted by rannyfash  
the GEET engine also claims to lyse water and utilise the hydrogen oxygen as an extra fuel source, it could be plausible but would require vigorous testing by independent researchers however all i see from the schematics is an efficient heat exchanger allowing vaporisation of heavier molecules like vegetable oil or crude oil for use as a fuel, its a semi-scam if there was a word for it, it has use but is misrepresented, anyway sorry for the deviation i will also post a schematic taken from the GEET main website

it seems the picture is too large, so here: http://pesn.com/2009/06/9501546_Paul-Pantone_of_Geet_release...


"During the 20 minutes of "burn-in-time" the engine must be oriented so as the reaction chamber in which the exhaust is entering is facing to magnetic North. The side where the fuel enter is facing South."

SEMI-scam?

SEMI???

:D:D:D

Dude, are you fucking serious? :D
Why is it so hard for you to recognize true crackpots? These are crackpots. School example of. For god sake, this thing on the picture doesn't do anything.

It's easy to recognize crackpot blueprints. They include so many details, but give so little of actual information. Who cares about 1/2'' galvanized pipe tees?


just look at the schematics, what they claim is bullshit but it uses hot gasses from combustion to vaporise heavier molecules for use as a fuel, i understand what they say about the science behind it is bullshit but what they have come up with allows you to fuel your car with anything that is flammable as a vapour at or below the temperature of the exhaust gasses, i could design a better system without the bullshit and without the oxygen depleted exhaust gasses being recycled through the engine, my guesses is they came up by it by chance and came up with bullshit around it
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[*] posted on 16-7-2012 at 16:13


The only thing that is interesting about it is that hydrogen does have a much higher combustion velocity that gasoline and hydrogen also burns over a much wider range of fuel/air ratios than gasoline. Is it therefore possible that adding enough hydrogen could cause more efficient burning of the gasoline?

I remember mythbusters tested one of these and as expected it did nothing. The amount of hydrogen produced was insignificant. (A few watts worth of H2 going into an engine
producing 10KW minimum).
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[*] posted on 17-7-2012 at 04:35


Quote: Originally posted by gregxy  
The only thing that is interesting about it is that hydrogen does have a much higher combustion velocity that gasoline and hydrogen also burns over a much wider range of fuel/air ratios than gasoline. Is it therefore possible that adding enough hydrogen could cause more efficient burning of the gasoline?



There is at least one small British University study that seems to indicate that:

From here:

http://www.eco-scams.com/archives/737

”Now Dr. Samuel ran this experiment where he added small amounts of hydrogen from electrolysis into the air intake of a diesel engine and he found that there was a small improvement in engine efficiency, that it burned less diesel. He found that by adding 2.8 litre per minute of the Hydrogen Oxygen mixture that there was a 5.4% reduction in fuel consumption and that this could probably be improved on by adding more hydrogen.

This is partly because the hydrogen is replacing the diesel as a fuel but mainly because the hydrogen is working to enhance the combustion of the diesel.”


Very important note: in Dr. Samuel’s study the hydrogen added wasn’t ‘on board/on demand’ hydrogen. The energy to produce the added hydrogen wasn’t pulled off the alternator (like in the HHO gizmos) but the hydrogen had been prepared separately with a separate source of electrical energy.




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[*] posted on 17-7-2012 at 05:02


Quote: Originally posted by Endimion17  
Quote: Originally posted by rannyfash  
the GEET engine also claims to lyse water and utilise the hydrogen oxygen as an extra fuel source, it could be plausible but would require vigorous testing by independent researchers however all i see from the schematics is an efficient heat exchanger allowing vaporisation of heavier molecules like vegetable oil or crude oil for use as a fuel, its a semi-scam if there was a word for it, it has use but is misrepresented, anyway sorry for the deviation i will also post a schematic taken from the GEET main website

it seems the picture is too large, so here: http://pesn.com/2009/06/9501546_Paul-Pantone_of_Geet_release...


"During the 20 minutes of "burn-in-time" the engine must be oriented so as the reaction chamber in which the exhaust is entering is facing to magnetic North. The side where the fuel enter is facing South."

SEMI-scam?

SEMI???

:D:D:D

Dude, are you fucking serious? :D
Why is it so hard for you to recognize true crackpots? These are crackpots. School example of. For god sake, this thing on the picture doesn't do anything.

It's easy to recognize crackpot blueprints. They include so many details, but give so little of actual information. Who cares about 1/2'' galvanized pipe tees?


LOL I go away for a few days and come back to find this thread a lot more...interesting, to put it politely:D

I'm very English about things and always think about how not to offend people, but in a word:
SCAM
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