Sciencemadness Discussion Board - Quantitative analysis of unburnt boron

posted on 23-7-2012 at 05:58

Interesting paper but as a model it's a million miles away from what happens in an ICE...

You asked for "any peer reviewed data supports the idea that adding boron (as in 'boron powder'???) to fuel does anything at all?"

I gave it.

I asked a chemistry related question in the OP. Are you now trying to change the OP to something else? If so, go make your own thread please.

I'm an engineer, I will look into the practicalities of implementing boron-additive fuel in an ICE.

In the meantime please answer the OP if you can, otherwise hold your peace.

blogfast25

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posted on 23-7-2012 at 06:16

I gave it.

No, you didn't. That paper has nothing to do with fuel.

Have it your way. I'm out.

Fusionfire

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posted on 23-7-2012 at 07:13

I gave it.

No, you didn't. That paper has nothing to do with fuel.

Have it your way. I'm out.

I suspect you didn't even bother to read the paper, given that your response to me providing my reference was within 10 minutes.

The paper IS relevant to fuel. On page 19 of the pdf it explains it as follows:

Quote:

1.1 Benefits of Boron as a Fuel
Boron has great potential for use as an additive for an energetic material. Apart from being
a relatively common element, it has the greatest heating value of any other fuel, except for 3 beryllium, used with oxygen. Table 1.1 lists the heating values for some of the more common
fuels. Beryllium, when it reacts with oxygen, forms BeO which is extremely toxic, so beryllium is
never considered a viable fuel. As can be clearly seen, boron has considerably greater heating
values per unit mass and per unit volume. If it is to be used as a rocket fuel, the reduction of
weight and volume of the fuel will result in higher payloads or longer durations of flight, not to
mention a more cost effective flight.
Also being considered is the use of boron for controlled, non-ideal detonations. The high
energy output with delayed reaction will generate an expanded pressure-volume process, which would result in more work output. However, having a high heating value does not alone make a U material a desirable fuel.

1 1.2 Disadvantages of Boron as a Fuel
For a material to be a likely candidate for a fuel or fuel additive, it must be able to ignite,
burn, and release its energy within the combustor region of a rocket. Unfortunately, boron does
not meet this criteria for most applications [1]. The main reason that boron is difficult to ignite is 5 that the particle is coated with an oxide layer, B20 3. The oxide layer, which is present whenever
the particle is in an oxygen containing atmosphere, inhibits further oxidation of the particle and
therefore restricts the ignition process.
Burning of the particle is also restricted by the oxide layer. After the particle reaches a
certain temperature, the oxide layer will liquefy. This allows some oxygen to slowly diffuse
through the liquid layer and to react with the boron. However, the reaction will then produce more
oxide and will increase the thickness of the oxide layer, which will retard the diffusion process as 3 well as the combustion of the particle.
Finally, full utilization of energy from the combustion reaction is difficult to achieve 3 because most of the energy is never released. The chemical reaction of the boron and oxygen is
exothermic but most of that energy initially is used to continue the heat up of the particle. Also,
because boron has high melting and boiling temperatures, the heating of the particle can continue
for durations longer than most residence times in combustors. If the particle happens to react
completely, most of the products formed will be in the gas phase. The high energy output shown
in Table 1.1 is not achieved until the products condense to liquid phase. The trapping of the
products in the gas phase can potentially reduce the heating value of boron by up to 25 percent.
The condensing of the boron products is relatively slow until the temperature drops significantly,
and therefore the benefits of the high energy release are realized too late [1, 3].

watson.fawkes

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posted on 23-7-2012 at 07:20

I suspect you didn't even bother to read the paper, given that your response to me providing my reference was within 10 minutes.

The paper IS relevant to fuel.

It takes far less than ten minutes to read the abstract and see quickly that the reaction conditions are unrelated to those in an internal combustion engine:

Quote:

Particles ranging from submicron to 32 microns in diameter are ignited in the ambient conditions produced by a reflected shock wave in a shock tube.

Just to be very, very clear, the conditions in a shock tube are not those within the piston of an ICE.

Yo-Yo

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I know there are boron based fuel additives for high performance marine engines. I do not know what they contain, but would love to find out. There is a simple and sensitive colorometric test for borate using curcumine, easily available from acetone extract of tumeric. Perhaps that could be used here?

I took a PhD in neuropharmacology and all I got was this bloody t-shirt.

Fusionfire

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posted on 23-7-2012 at 07:35

I suspect you didn't even bother to read the paper, given that your response to me providing my reference was within 10 minutes.

The paper IS relevant to fuel.

It takes far less than ten minutes to read the abstract and see quickly that the reaction conditions are unrelated to those in an internal combustion engine:

Quote:

Particles ranging from submicron to 32 microns in diameter are ignited in the ambient conditions produced by a reflected shock wave in a shock tube.

Just to be very, very clear, the conditions in a shock tube are not those within the piston of an ICE.

Are we changing the topics again?

blogfast25 was asking about the relevance of boron to fuel, not ICEs. See below:

posted on 23-7-2012 at 07:39

Before you embark on a wild goose chase, do you have any peer reviewed data supports the idea that adding boron (as in 'boron powder'???) to fuel does anything at all?

So I answered his question with a paper that, in part, discussed the prospect of using boron as a fuel.

I think you will find it was blogfast who then changed the subject and raised the prospect of boron in an ICE.

Where its end use I had in mind will be is irrelevant to this thread.

[Edited on 23-7-2012 by Fusionfire]

Fusionfire

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Quote: Originally posted by Yo-Yo

Thanks for the info. This would give the amount of oxidised boron present, and deriving the amount of un-oxidised boron in the exhaust would require an unsustainable assumption: mass of boron in = mass of boron out (unlikely due to residue build up and an imperfect exhaust trap).

watson.fawkes

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posted on 23-7-2012 at 07:52

posted on 23-7-2012 at 09:26

Are we changing the topics again?

You were insulting another member of the forum for, in my opinion, no good reason.

So what kind of combustion chamber are you using? And how does it have any relevance to the paper cited? I ask because I know of very few amateurs who even know what shock tubes are, much less have the capacity to construct them.

Fusionfire

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posted on 23-7-2012 at 09:46

Are we changing the topics again?

Excuse me? I was insulting another member of the forum? Which post and where? There have been no insults whatsoever from me or anyone else in this thread. Chill out.

As I have said this thread has been diverted from the OP enough, so I won't comment further on what kind of combustion chamber I am using.

A simple shock tube is incredibly easy to construct. High pressure gas cylinder -> high pressure section | diaphragm | atmospheric section. A standard N2 cylinder easily has enough pressure to burst a number of plastic diaphragms made from transparency slides.

blogfast25

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Fusion:

No, I didn’t read the paper in full: the abstract tells me there’s nothing there that could be of use in research into fuel savings in ICEs. That’s what abstracts are for (at least in part).

Changing subjects? From your previous post on HHO I guessed successfully you were looking into other fuel saving measures for ICEs. No changing subjects here.

Starting from a material that has, shall we say, ‘combustion issues’ ;-), doesn’t appear to me to be an ideal starting point. And the fact that boron additives will increase exhaust particulate matter, at least in all likelihood, isn’t promising either.

If anything you might want to look for papers looking into catalytic behaviour of boron in combustion reactions.

Finding additives that can lead to fuel savings in ICEs has become a bit of a Holy Grail. No one really found that one either…

[Edited on 23-7-2012 by blogfast25]

Fusionfire

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posted on 23-7-2012 at 13:59

posted on 23-7-2012 at 23:28

Please do not speculate on the reasons why I asked about measuring the amount of unburnt boron in the exhaust. It detracts from the OP and is just speculation.

As I said to watson.fawkes, I never said anything about ICEs. "Combustion chamber" was mentioned in the OP because that is the only way you can get a controlled environment to burn what boron you can and measure any residual unreacted boron.

Quote:

Changing subjects? From your previous post on HHO I guessed successfully you were looking into other fuel saving measures for ICEs. No changing subjects here.

No, you did not guess successfully. You are still miles off my intended use for boron.

In any case I had to draw my punches with the "Scam or not?" thread because of repressive UK libel laws. If accused of libel the onus is on the accused to prove that what they said about the plaintiff was true.

I'm guessing the others that did participate in that thread aren't from the UK, therefore they can say whatever they want because it is unlikely a UK plaintiff will pursue libel internationally.

I had my own initial opinion it was a scam. I had to present the matter in a very balanced way and let others show it was a scam. Then I could weigh in and concur it was a scam.

Quote:

Starting from a material that has, shall we say, ‘combustion issues’ ;-), doesn’t appear to me to be an ideal starting point. And the fact that boron additives will increase exhaust particulate matter, at least in all likelihood, isn’t promising either.

Again you make assumptions about the intended use for boron. Given that accusations of insulting behaviour are already flying (talk about resembling a children's playground!) I won't patronise you by spoonfeeding you and instead will ask you to step back and think about possible scenarios where the combustion issues and particulate matter are largely or totally irrelevant.

Quote:

If anything you might want to look for papers looking into catalytic behaviour of boron in combustion reactions.

I can't see how boron may increase a combustion reaction rate without itself undergoing permanent chemical change, reactive as it is. It is now my turn to ask that you provide references to this effect.

Quote:

Finding additives that can lead to fuel savings in ICEs has become a bit of a Holy Grail. No one really found that one either…

I will repeat one more time: this has nothing to do with ICEs; it is a false assumption to think I am talking about them.

[Edited on 23-7-2012 by Fusionfire]

Yo-Yo

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Given the imperfect sampling method, it seems to me that it would be necessary to measure both the reacted and elemental boron.

I took a PhD in neuropharmacology and all I got was this bloody t-shirt.

watson.fawkes

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posted on 24-7-2012 at 03:21

posted on 24-7-2012 at 04:38

As I have said this thread has been diverted from the OP enough, so I won't comment further on what kind of combustion chamber I am using.

Then I'll just have to assume that you are not, in fact, engaged in amateur science and are trying to leech off the community here. If so, please leave. If not, please engage with what you're actually working on and describe the combustion chamber.

blogfast25

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I'm guessing the others that did participate in that thread aren't from the UK, therefore they can say whatever they want because it is unlikely a UK plaintiff will pursue libel internationally.

I had my own initial opinion it was a scam. I had to present the matter in a very balanced way and let others show it was a scam. Then I could weigh in and concur it was a scam.
[Edited on 23-7-2012 by Fusionfire]

Well, I’m from the UK and have no trouble calling a scam a scam.

Jon Starbuck (real name), relentless 'eco' scam buster, owner of eco-scams.com and fearless critic of anything HHO, has been routinely threatened with libel suits by HHO criminals. But to this day no one has dared to take him to court: they know damn well they would lose. British libel laws aren’t that restrictive: it’s perfectly possible to tell the truth about a liar w/o legal battles ensuing.

Also: how was anyone to interpret:

posted on 24-7-2012 at 14:42

I'm an engineer, I will look into the practicalities of implementing boron-additive fuel in an ICE.

In the meantime please answer the OP if you can, otherwise hold your peace.

… as anything other than your project being about… erm… ICEs???

[Edited on 24-7-2012 by blogfast25]

Fusionfire

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posted on 24-7-2012 at 14:53

As I have said this thread has been diverted from the OP enough, so I won't comment further on what kind of combustion chamber I am using.

Don't make baseless assumptions.

Fusionfire

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Well, I’m from the UK and have no trouble calling a scam a scam.

Hey there are UK drivers that break the speed limit or taxpayers that fiddle their tax return. Clearly there are those who want to run the risk of prosecution and others don't.

Quote:

Jon Starbuck (real name), relentless 'eco' scam buster, owner of eco-scams.com and fearless critic of anything HHO, has been routinely threatened with libel suits by HHO criminals. But to this day no one has dared to take him to court: they know damn well they would lose. British libel laws aren’t that restrictive: it’s perfectly possible to tell the truth about a liar w/o legal battles ensuing.

Good for him, and I am glad someone is unveiling eco scams. In the meantime I do have another day job to attend to...

Quote:

Also: how was anyone to interpret:

posted on 25-7-2012 at 05:02

I'm an engineer, I will look into the practicalities of implementing boron-additive fuel in an ICE.

In the meantime please answer the OP if you can, otherwise hold your peace.

… as anything other than your project being about… erm… ICEs???

Two reasons:

1) Because you detracted from the OP by raising the subject of ICEs, after bringing absurd red herrings into play such as boron doing nothing when added to fuel.

I was quite content that I could refute this completely uninformed opinion if the argument went in the context of ICEs, ECEs, shock tubes or whatever else we may find boron + fuel in.

2) Maybe it hasn't dawned yet, but I am trying to draw the attention of thread hijackers (inadvertent or not, I don't care) back to the OP. If it means telling said hijackers not to worry about ICEs because I have those bases covered then so be it.

[Edited on 24-7-2012 by Fusionfire]

watson.fawkes

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posted on 25-7-2012 at 06:10

Don't make baseless assumptions.

I've got perfectly good basis for making the assumption that you're a leech. You've spent way more effort into evading very simple questions about the larger context of what you're doing than just answering them. Given that your question isn't about drugs, the next most common reason people on this board act like they got their hand caught in the cookie jar is that they're working on commercial projects and are protecting trade secrets or other intellectual property.

As you can tell, no one has been responding to the content of your question. It's not like your evasion is subtle. I've got no reason to be taken advantage of; no surprise to me that others apparently feel the same way.

blogfast25

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Fusion:

‘thread hijackers’???? Man, you’re funny. I’ve now just pissed myself, laughing so much… Well done.

If you’re trying to obtain information for ‘secret projects’, you’ve come to the wrong place. Do a deep, deep literature search. You won’t learn much about ‘quantifying the amount of unburnt boron in exhausts’ here.

Re. libel laws and risking prosecution: you’re here ANONYMOUS, FFS! Or do you think ‘the Government’s got your number’??? LOL

Fusionfire

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posted on 25-7-2012 at 07:10

posted on 25-7-2012 at 07:13

Don't make baseless assumptions.

I don't answer questions based on bald assumptions. I won't encourage more ridiculous questions by answering them.

Yo-yo has answered. Anyone who could but hasn't answered, I blame on both you and blogfast25 spoiling the atmosphere of the thread.

At the end of the day, I asked a legitimate question and both you and blogfast25 dove into completely uninformed allegations about boron not doing anything, boron being irrelevant to ICEs and now that I am a leech.

Fusionfire

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posted on 25-7-2012 at 08:04

Fusion:

‘thread hijackers’???? Man, you’re funny. I’ve now just pissed myself, laughing so much… Well done.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=thread%20hija...

Quote:

If you’re trying to obtain information for ‘secret projects’, you’ve come to the wrong place. Do a deep, deep literature search. You won’t learn much about ‘quantifying the amount of unburnt boron in exhausts’ here.

Do you have any evidence I am asking anything but a simple chemistry question?

Quote:

Re. libel laws and risking prosecution: you’re here ANONYMOUS, FFS! Or do you think ‘the Government’s got your number’??? LOL

Hey it is your choice if you want to risk it. Or maybe you are just the nasty type who thinks because they are anonymous they can treat people badly.

I only ask that you respect my wish to be a law abiding citizen.

blogfast25

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