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Ego_and_his_own
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Registered: 27-9-2012
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And the biggest problem I saw is that all this dont happen over night, it happens gradually over life time. Danger of it is that people dont notice
how bad this can be and when it become so obvious that you cant ignore it anymore its then too late.
And people do tend to ignore what don't affect them directly. Thats why they behave like sheep's when wolf take few of them. They gather in a circle
and those inside think that they are safe as long as those outside can feed a wolf for next day.
But their ignorance is that they dont think about fact that wolf is hungry every day....
[Edited on 3-10-2012 by Ego_and_his_own]
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violet sin
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about the home invasion bit over a vinegar smell : I mentioned this to my brother, who had just received training on this prior to graduating from
fish and game academy in california. and he pointed out right off the bat, that a vinegar smell is common when dealing with opiates. especially if
tar is being cooked to diacetylmorphine a.k.a. heroin. so perhaps it wasn't a meth lab, but it could have been another type of lab.
thing is he doesn't even care for chemistry( its my hobby) and he knew it immediately because of the peace officer portion of their training. so
it seems to me that the cops should have known more intimately what to be looking for, but also maybe the confusion is the type of warrant may cover
ANY drug lab. and they knew exactly what they were looking for. I would like/prefer to think they wouldn't risk lives unless they knew those
chemicals could be used for it.
as for other things voiced here, I am now curious as to what I would find in cali as far as laws for home chemistry ... bet they aren't too fun.
but so far i have managed to avoid a personal visit from the fuzz. just a curious home experimenter, but trying to prove that if asked I believe
would be more of a pain. time to read up I guess
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Ego_and_his_own
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I think that 25% of kids never graduate HS in California is real measure how much government care.
Are they are prepared that way to be drugs consumers? Or what? And how much is spent on education, billions.
where in the hell that money goes?
Hey Man 25%?! Thats insane.
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ChemistryGhost
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It's all fear and a mild brainwashing to make people comply to what big brother says. They want a fearful ignorant society. They want us to be dumb
and be covering our ears ignoring the removal of cognitive liberty and freedom. If there was a way to remove fear and sadness from people's past
memories in a harmless way, the government will be the first to hault all funding for this. Wolf is hungry and sooner or later, some must cease to be
sheep and become king cobra.
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" ~Einstein
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violet sin
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hey ego, nothing wrong with california, like any other state or school system. you get out of it what you put in. cali's drop out rate are not too
high comparatively, not to my liking though. in fact many states had higher dropout rates. this does not make the situation any better mind you but
the facts may be a bit misleading...
http://www.cde.ca.gov/nr/ne/yr12/yr12rel65.asp
"Beyond the 76.3 percent graduation rate and the 14.4 percent dropout rate, the remaining 9.3 percent are students who are neither graduates nor
dropouts. Some are still enrolled in school (8.6 percent). Others are non-diploma special education students (0.4 percent), and some elected to pass a
high school equivalency exam."
it's not just people that can't seem to pay attention, it is a number of things all adding together to make a rather unacceptable number. check out
national dropout rates here http://boostup.org/en/facts/statistics#ca
I thought the main thrust of this was about maybe doing well in light of laws and ignorance and maybe discussing pitfalls to avoid. to that end,
instead of complaining of the woes, perhaps it is better to think of ways to be smart and not have to lie or bend the truth... so one thing I can
think of immediately,(1) keep a log or journal of your doings. you have just created an great proof of your intention and observations. also by (2)
labeling your chems clearly, especially if in nonstandard bottles. you reduce the risk of scaring some one or unintentional accident if precautions
are listed.(3) if you treat you chemistry with safety first, then if any thing does happen you don't appear to be a hack or potential hazard to
others.
I'm sure there are plenty of ways to seem well within your rights, trustworthy, and responsible. any one else have tips for people, maybe some one
who has had contact with lawmen?
[Edited on 5-10-2012 by violet sin]
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Dave Angel
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These sorts of reports are exactly why I still maintain as great a deal of privacy about the hobby as I realistically can; I never work in view of
neighbours or the public, everything is hidden from visiting workmen, and only a handful of my oldest and most trusted friends and family know of my
activities. It's sad, as I have friends who I know would love to be involved, but just can't be trusted to keep their mouths shut about it in wider
social settings, with non-mutual friends, to colleagues etc.
The thing is, even trusting a court to throw out any legal proceedings should the police decide to raid one's home (and that's a lot of trust these
days), I can only imagine the nightmare it must be to lose one's entire collection of computers and storage, chemicals and apparatus etc. for months
on end as evidence and see them returned, perhaps in pieces, ('sorry sir, must have broken in transit') or maybe not at all if they wish to retain
them for possible future proceedings. This not to mention being personally dragged through such an alien system (I have had zero encounters with the
law - I'd like to keep it that way), having DNA and prints put on record ('innocent? Oh, we'll just keep those records anyway - you've got nothing to
hide have you sir?') and the impact it's likely to have on work (mud sticks) and family.
Keep your heads well below the parapets my friends...
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IrC
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Thought of your post and your location when I read this article. Little information therein yet the charge stood out in my mind :
http://www.business-standard.com/generalnews/news/brothersis...
"suspicion of possessing documents likely to be of use to someone preparing for an act of terrorism".
I have to wonder, are not the majority of experiments discussed on this entire site likely to be ruled in this category? Anything in the energetic
materials section, indeed any chemical discussion over substances which could be harmful, in truth nearly every damned thing discussed?
The charge in quotes is so broad, so vague and generalized. In effect it appears to me you are very wise hiding your experimentation in the UK. Do not
feel bad while it may not be on paper, the way LEO and the public, the media, etc., and so on act here in the US I for one cannot say things are any
better here than they are for you in the UK.
Or am I just being overly paranoid? Is it really paranoia when they all really are out to get you? I believe laws and charges this general are written
this way to give them the ability to go after whoever they want whenever they want at any time they feel like it.
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" Richard Feynman
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violet sin
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well one thing I have noticed here in Cali, every freaking store you go into asks you for a rewards/discount card. lowes, home depot, ace hardware,
rite-aid, CVS, Safeway, etc. etc. it is apparent that if you use the cards at all, they already know what you have bought. also seems like if ya end
up drawing attention they could quite likely get a warrant for you purchases and open up to others like ebay. maybe even with out you ever knowing?
what with the anti terrorist laws and initiatives. not sure they have to tell you the cops are getting nosy.
funny how ya have to be crafty like you actually ARE doing something, just to give a reasonable buffer zone from gettn yourself a pair of those
matching bracelets.
also funny how you are supposed to trust their judgement to not ruin your life with felonies and jail,.. false or not.... but seems they would
altogether prefer that most people were just plain stupid, as opposed to having to trust your judgment.
not going down the road of complaining again, just amusing in a way. I mean there are a LOT of people I wouldn't trust to play with chems either! I
guess the another way to tackle it is think about what they would try and nail ya for, then cover your exits. like if it was toxic, or an
environmental toxin be sure to have proper waste disposal. if it was energetic, crap, do what ya can to just never get caught. and on the drug side
some laws are crazy. seems here just using IPA, acetone, butane (what ever) to get a cannabis concentrate is directly equivalent to manufacturing
methamphetamine's. so something I have seen countless teenagers do( cannabis concentrate, not meth cook) as well as broke college kids without ever
knowing the charges they could face... seriously.
[Edited on 7-10-2012 by violet sin]
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Dave Angel
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Quote: Originally posted by IrC  | "suspicion of possessing documents likely to be of use to someone preparing for an act of terrorism".
I have to wonder, are not the majority of experiments discussed on this entire site likely to be ruled in this category? Anything in the energetic
materials section, indeed any chemical discussion over substances which could be harmful, in truth nearly every damned thing discussed?
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Ah yes, the UK's beloved terrorism act. The charge is so broad because the law, as you've pointed out, is written that way.
It's been a little while since I read through the law but I'd agree with you that there are many materials that we work with that could be 'useful to
those preparing acts of terrorism' or however it's worded. The London tube/bus bombers used AP... Now what home chemist doesn't have acetone, hydrogen
peroxide and various acids in their collection? Nitric and sulphuric acid, and toluene? Check...
Those arrested under the terrorism act can be held without charge for 28 days as opposed to the usual (I believe) 72 hours for other offences. It may
be more than 28 days actually; I think there were machinations to extend this some time ago. Let's be clear on this: Held without charge; i.e., they
arrest you for having a bunch of chemicals in your garage and you're locked up for a month without further ado. In those 28 days you can probably kiss
your job goodbye and it ain't going to help a more serious career.
This article highlights what might be called a 'vigilance campaign' encouraging people to look out for people taking pictures of 'security
arrangements' amongst other things. Another poster (which I can't find online) showed a garage full of chemical bottles as something to report. Does
that scene sound familiar to anyone...?
Here in the UK someone was arrested as a result of photographing a christmas parade and not giving his details:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/feb/21/police-arrest...
You can keep your 'Paranormal Activity' and what not - it's these sorts of videos that truly scare me. It starts with section 44 of the terrorism act
- watch it escalate as he spouts the law back at them. The PCSOs (police community support officers, sort of like volunteer police - they have less
power) don't stand a chance. In the end, they bring in a proper cop who uses the anti-social behaviour act to get around the get-out from the original
act invoked.
First off, the original law he was stopped under is forgotten; first it's just getting details of those taking photos and then suddenly he's commited
a crime. When they are out-manoeuvred by someone who knows his rights, they find something else to get him on. If that was his 'crime' then why not
approaching him under the anti-social behaviour act in the first place?
Second, for those unfamiliar with British law, the terrorism act was created to stop the likes of the Tube bombers. The anti-social behaviour act was
essentially created to deal with the likes of lawless, intimidating teens who bully pensioners at bus stops etc. How, I ask, does a mild mannered
photographer fit the spirit of these laws? It's classic abuse of law to suit the need to 'get the guy on something' as you've mentioned
IrC.
On the finally decided upon 'crime' itself, I would assume that the so called 'antisocial' use of the camera was a standard photographer behaviour of
trying to be subtle (aka. "sneaky") about taking the shot so as to catch people acting naturally. Being quite obvious and pointing a fancy camera with
a big lens in someone's face tends to change their behaviour and expressions when shooting street scenes.
Anyway, I could go on and on about this, but I'd probably go round in circles; I've seen plenty more examples of laws being stretched because the
police took offence to someone filming etc. The point is that this guy could have been any old bloke with a camera, and people can relate to his
situation. He has the public sympathy and they still put him in a cell for 8 hours and release him without charge (naturally), just to give him the
proverbial slap on the wrist for daring to stand up for himself. Now, how do you think they'd treat one of us? How well would the public relate to us?
What it comes down to is that I don't believe that the law is out to get home chemists per se - we're in such a minority that we go unnoticed for the
most part, but sadly this also means we're never taken into consideration when laws that may adversely affect us are written or (ab)used. Instead, I
think that the neither the law makers, nor the police, nor the general public have the awareness, capability or inclination to tell us apart from
terrorists and cooks. And the result is just as violet sin says - we end up acting like we have something to hide in (rational) fear
of them thinking what we're doing is illegal.
These days, besides keeping my head down, I try to keep zero electronic data that could be misconstrued as Naughty ThingsTM and I keep a
lab book of what I do to demonstrate the objective, and therefore the legitamacy, of the experiments (a topic which has been debated in another thread
as I recall). Simply put, if we want to continue our hobby in this day and age then, in the same way that we try to take precautions for our personal
health & safety (and I won't claim the best track record there), then we have to consider analogous precautions against the other 'reactive
species' out there!
[Edited on 7/10/2012 by Dave Angel]
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qhyperbola
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Thanks for all friendly replies - good news
I may just end up winning this thing after all. I have now won in court for a 3rd time since this all started 2 yrs ago with the thermite casting
experiment. I had no idea I would be so good at pro se lawyering . Most people
here have long since forgotten about that incident and I am now only beset with the property manager's vendetta against my wife and I for making him
look bad. He just tried a merciless eviction attempt right after I had a spinal surgery and despite his hired attorney who's been practicing since
1977 (year I was born) has now been forced to wait until Jan.2013 to try again. At the April Owners meeting I can force him justify the amount of the
Cooperative's money that has been spent losing to me 3 times. He deserves to be put on the hotseat for eschewing wisdom and mercy in favor their
opposites: mean and stupid.
My little one bedroom unit $775.75/mo with free water and gas in Rockville is too good to let go of and more people seem to hate this manager guy more
than they hate me.
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