Sciencemadness Discussion Board
Not logged in [Login ]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2  
Author: Subject: Making metal powders
ldanielrosa
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 124
Registered: 25-4-2007
Member Is Offline

Mood: transparent

[*] posted on 23-9-2012 at 22:52


I'm taking the ball mill route. I have aluminum running now, but I'll attempt to powder some steel wool next. I'll let y'all know when it's done.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
triplepoint
Hazard to Others
***




Posts: 127
Registered: 11-4-2012
Location: U.S.
Member Is Offline

Mood: in equilibrium

[*] posted on 23-9-2012 at 23:05


Quote: Originally posted by ldanielrosa  
I'm taking the ball mill route...


I've been considering getting a ball mill. One of my concerns is noise. If I got a mill, I would probably build a sound-insulating enclosure based on one of the plans available online. What is your experience with noise from your mill and how do you deal with it?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
phlogiston
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1356
Registered: 26-4-2008
Location: Neon Thorium Erbium Lanthanum Neodymium Sulphur
Member Is Offline

Mood: pyrophoric

[*] posted on 24-9-2012 at 01:38


I place a box covered with sound isolation foam over the container, and it dampens the sound rather well. With the mill in an uncovered hole in the ground with the box over the rotating drum I can only barely hear it 20m away.



-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
View user's profile View All Posts By User
phlogiston
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1356
Registered: 26-4-2008
Location: Neon Thorium Erbium Lanthanum Neodymium Sulphur
Member Is Offline

Mood: pyrophoric

[*] posted on 24-9-2012 at 04:06


Quote:
My main problem with sandpaper was always that some "sand" will get into the metal powder what was made by that way. And the separation of a fine powder from a few percent of sand.... Nightmare.


Actually, sandpaper is very often made using aluminium oxide grit.
If you are making aluminium powder there is going to be some oxide in it anyway, so the few additional aluminium oxide particles from the sandpaper probably make little difference.



[Edited on 24-9-2012 by phlogiston]




-----
"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer
View user's profile View All Posts By User
elementcollector1
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline

Mood: Molten

[*] posted on 24-9-2012 at 19:04


Yeah, but the hacksaw method produced bright, shiny flakes of powder. No contamination short of oxide layer on the surface.
I will have to see if my aluminum from foil actually works in thermite reactions, that will be a test for this weekend (ugh, college).




Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Bot0nist
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1559
Registered: 15-2-2011
Location: Right behind you.
Member Is Offline

Mood: Streching my cotyledons.

[*] posted on 8-10-2012 at 17:25


It has been touched on in this thread, but never plainly stated. A very fine Cu powder can be had easily from copper pipings and such by first using them to make copper sulfate, either through electrochemical cell or through the action of a hydrogen peroxide/sulfuric acid soulution.

Make a concentrated solution of the prepared copper sulfate and add to it a pinch of NaCl and a few small strips of cheap Al foil. A rapid and exothermic reation will percipitate very fine Cu metal. If the solution is kept moderatly cooled and rapidly stired the powder will be finer and more consistant. Wash with warm water and dry for use immediately, or protect it from oxidation.

The powdered Cu is fine enough to produce a fast and beautifully bright flashpowder with KClO<sub>3</sub> or KClO<sub>4</sub>. I doubt it is storage friendly, or even safe though.




U.T.F.S.E. and learn the joys of autodidacticism!


Don't judge each day only by the harvest you reap, but also by the seeds you sow.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
hyfalcon
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1004
Registered: 29-3-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 9-10-2012 at 01:25


At least the powder mixes can be kept separately till time to use them. Some of these exotic primaries as has already been mentioned don't store well.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
weschem
Harmless
*




Posts: 24
Registered: 10-11-2012
Location: CA, USA
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 11-11-2012 at 11:13


Has anyone tried putting a whole ingot in a ball mill to turn it into powder? If so how long did it take? Im currently building a ball mill out of an old bench grinder, steel rods, and a paint can. What kind of size particles have others been seeing?
View user's profile View All Posts By User
elementcollector1
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline

Mood: Molten

[*] posted on 13-11-2012 at 12:17


Well, I've put aluminum chunks in the ball mill to help with milling and to possibly provide more aluminum. All I've seen is that they're getting shinier (I think the milling action is 'polishing' them).

As for size of particles, just by judging from sight the largest stuff was about 2-3mm in size after 4 straight days of milling, where the initial stuff had been somewhere around 5-6mm. The smallest stuff was too small to judge without a ruler, but I would hazard a guess at 400 mesh. Both the larger and smaller stuff were dark gray, as compared to the shiny stuff I put in there.




Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
View user's profile View All Posts By User
platedish29
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 76
Registered: 2-9-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: absorbing CO2

[*] posted on 31-12-2012 at 17:09
lead metal powder


Lead metal powder can be chemically prepared to a fine mesh from elemental lead.
1 mol lead, 2 mol acetic acid, make it to about 25% conc. of the acid into water. 100ml H2O2 "nothing" happens. Plus 150mL, vigorous reaction. Might be because of right dilution nut I don't think so.
The black powder left behind is Pb in a very fine mesh, not PbO2.
This will turn into PbO before melts.
Yield: for every 500g Lead, about 50g lead pwd. is left behind
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Oscilllator
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 659
Registered: 8-10-2012
Location: The aqueous layer
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 31-12-2012 at 21:17


Dont displacement reactions produce fine metal powders? If so, they could quite easily be used to produce fine metal powders by the home chemist.



View user's profile View All Posts By User
Hexavalent
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1564
Registered: 29-12-2011
Location: Wales, UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: Pericyclic

[*] posted on 1-1-2013 at 08:23


Generally, yes. I imagine that the higher the temperature of the reactants, the finer the powder obtained; a higher temperature means a faster rate of reaction, which means that the metal particles have less time to form, and consequently are smaller in size (the same is true when growing crystals).



"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." Winston Churchill
View user's profile View All Posts By User
AJKOER
Radically Dubious
*****




Posts: 3016
Registered: 7-5-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-1-2013 at 10:54


Quote: Originally posted by Bot0nist  
It has been touched on in this thread, but never plainly stated. A very fine Cu powder can be had easily from copper pipings and such by first using them to make copper sulfate, either through electrochemical cell or through the action of a hydrogen peroxide/sulfuric acid solution.

Make a concentrated solution of the prepared copper sulfate and add to it a pinch of NaCl and a few small strips of cheap Al foil. A rapid and exothermic reation will percipitate very fine Cu metal. If the solution is kept moderatly cooled and rapidly stired the powder will be finer and more consistant. Wash with warm water and dry for use immediately, or protect it from oxidation.

The powdered Cu is fine enough to produce a fast and beautifully bright flashpowder with KClO<sub>3</sub> or KClO<sub>4</sub>. I doubt it is storage friendly, or even safe though.


Here is a new (but perhaps too dangerous) way to similarly prepare Aluminum powder. Begin by forming a concentrated solution from slowly dissolving Aluminum in dry CH3OH. Source per Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol):

"One of the potential drawbacks of using high concentrations of methanol (and other alcohols, such as ethanol) in fuel is the corrosivity to some metals of methanol, particularly to aluminum. Methanol, although a weak acid, attacks the oxide coating that normally protects the aluminum from corrosion:

6 CH3OH + Al2O3 → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2O

The resulting methoxide salts are soluble in methanol, resulting in a clean aluminum surface, which is readily oxidized by dissolved oxygen. Also, the methanol can act as an oxidizer:

6 CH3OH + 2 Al → 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2

This reciprocal process effectively fuels corrosion until either the metal is eaten away or the concentration of CH3OH is negligible."

Note, if someone could suggest a safer organic solvent, please comment.

One could add a few small Mg strips slowly into such a cooled organic solution (but certainly test this reaction first for safety and extent of the exothermic reaction while wearing appropriate safety gear in a ventilated environment). If the solution is kept moderately cooled and rapidly stirred, perhaps a fine Al powder could be formed. There is also the question of yield owing to the reaction between Mg and any CH3OH containing the Al(OCH3)3. Please see comments at http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=20283

Bottomline: a not cheap, slow, toxic and still potentially a dangerous exothermic, but to some extent theoretically workable, path to fine Aluminum powder.


[Edited on 1-1-2013 by AJKOER]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
elementcollector1
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2684
Registered: 28-12-2011
Location: The Known Universe
Member Is Offline

Mood: Molten

[*] posted on 1-1-2013 at 10:58


Can you reuse methanol afterwards?



Elements Collected:52/87
Latest Acquired: Cl
Next in Line: Nd
View user's profile View All Posts By User
AJKOER
Radically Dubious
*****




Posts: 3016
Registered: 7-5-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-1-2013 at 11:47


Can you reuse methanol afterwards?

My implied replacement reaction is:

3 Mg + 2 Al(OCH3)3 --> 3 Mg(OCH3)2 + 2 Al (s)

and, in my opinion, it is not wise to have significant CH3OH present so do not focus on recovering any alcohol. One reason is a potential reaction with the newly formed Aluminum reducing yield, which is to some extent reduced by a competing reaction with Mg:

2 Al + 6 CH3OH --> 2 Al(OCH3)3 + 3 H2 (g)

Mg + 2 CH3OH --> Mg(OCH3)2 + H2 (g)

However, the speed of these side reactions is reduced by the presence of water. But, Al (and Mg slowly) will react with water:

2 Al + 6 H2O --> 2 Al(OH)3 + 3 H2

While very dry CH3OH is needed to foster the initial reaction between Al (and Mg) and Methyl alcohol (or a little I2 or CS2 see http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja01972a014 ), but the amount of H2O allowed into the system subsequently, is not immediately clear to me with respect to yield maximization.

I would start with using cheap watered down CH3OH (but at least 95%, see page 95 at http://www.biodiesel.org/docs/ffs-methanol/methanol-safe-han... ) and add a little Iodine and see if you can dissolve, even slowly, some Al. If successful, cautiously add with precautions some Mg strips with stirring. If any Al precipitate forms, quickly separate and protect especially from moisture.


[Edited on 2-1-2013 by AJKOER]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Metacelsus
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 2508
Registered: 26-12-2012
Location: Boston, MA
Member Is Offline

Mood: Double, double, toil and trouble

[*] posted on 1-1-2013 at 16:05


Decomposition of certain carboxylic acid salts (such as oxalates and citrates) can produce extremely fine metal powders. The less active the metal, the better it works. For example, zinc oxalate decomposes to mostly zinc oxide, but iron oxalate gives iron powder. Don't even try it with metals above carbon in the activity series.

Keep in mind, fine metal powders can be pyrophoric.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bbartlog
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1139
Registered: 27-8-2009
Location: Unmoored in time
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-1-2013 at 16:26


Ferrous oxalate decomposes to a mixture of roughly half metallic iron and half FeO on heating, per Hurd (The pyrolysis of carbon compounds).



The less you bet, the more you lose when you win.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
AJKOER
Radically Dubious
*****




Posts: 3016
Registered: 7-5-2011
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 1-1-2013 at 16:47


Here is a possibly safer experiment to form Al powder, but still expensive.

First, note that AlCl3 and MgCl2 are both somewhat soluble in Ethanol.

So, if one inserted a Mg strip in a warm solution of AlCl3 in Ethanol, one may be able to collect Aluminum powder.

Again, the presence of water may effect Al yield.

Also, the reaction between Mg and Ethanol is slow unless the Ethanol is heated to above its boiling temperature (78 C at atmospheric pressure: see http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6297188.html ).

However, the reaction of the newly formed Al and Et-OH in the presence of AlCl3 may be unfortunately significant. See "Corrosion Phenomenon and Its Analysis of 6063 Aluminum Alloy in Ethyl Alcohol" at http://www.jim.or.jp/journal/e/pdf3/50/06/1433.pdf where the Ethanol was 99.5%. Perhaps in slightly more dilute amounts, one may be able to achieve an acceptable yield of Aluminum as the presence of water impedes the Al/alcohol reaction.


[Edited on 2-1-2013 by AJKOER]
View user's profile View All Posts By User
jock88
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 505
Registered: 13-12-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 2-1-2013 at 10:49



Never heard this mentioned before.
One starting point for Al powder when making it with a ball mill is Al foil.
A better and far cheaper source of Al would be to obtain a wood plainer and plain some Al slabs. It states with most (electric of course) wood plainers that
they are capable of plaining Al.
Use the plain at the lightest setting to get as thin and light of shavings as possible.
Never tried it myself.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1624
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 2-1-2013 at 11:27


Copper powder

as ive played too much around with HCl + CuCl2 i know that if you dilute the solution of CuCl2 (not sure if HCl is needed for this) and dump in a piece of aluminium (or some tightly wrapped aluminium foil) copper should start forming, and its also very fine and easy to get off aswell..
only problem would be the contamination of aluminium, but i guess more HCl could be added to react with the aluminium, and it could be rinsed with water, or even NaOH, as HCl reacts quite slowly with copper..

for magnesium powder with sandpaper method, ive got 2 things, just additions not really new things..

magnesium water anode, round, somehow set to spin, perhaps electrical screwdriver?

the other method where the sandpaper is spinning and magnesium metal is pressed down onto the sandpaper, i read that a weak solution (was it 5%?) of potassium dichromate was used along with water so that the magnesium wouldnt react with the water.

a method that SHOULD work for nano size aluminium, but not very easy to get running would be to vapourize aluminium (yes, bring it to a boil) and then cool the aluminium fumes down with liquid nitrogen, this is an idea that was illustrated on youtube, i dont know if it would work, but i know that nasa have nanosized aluminium powder (ALICE rocket motor project)
or at least they say its nano size.

oh also another thing on magnesium, ballmilling magnesium is said to selfignite if its ballmilled for long time without giving it air, making a weak but (obviously) extremely hot explosion when you open.
but that would be several days constant ballmilling without letting in air.




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Simbani
Hazard to Self
**




Posts: 50
Registered: 12-12-2012
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 3-1-2013 at 05:21


There are many ways to make nanopowdered metals, like sol-gel, planetary milling, explosive forming and so on.
There actually is nanometric magnesium available, but I wouldn´t touch that stuff. It seems to be pyrophoric. BTW, you can buy nano powders from companys, it´s expensive but if one badly wants a few gram of 20nm Al, why not?

An easy way is to make nanometric (maybe down to 5nm) Fe2O3 or Fe3O4 particles is to dissolve ironII- or III-sulfate in distilled water and very slowly under strong magnetic stirrment adding very dilute (5%) ammonia solution. Do this in a old beaker and make a big amount, filtering and drying is almost impossible because this stuff is so fine.
View user's profile View All Posts By User
Antiswat
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 1624
Registered: 12-12-2012
Location: Dysrope (aka europe)
Member Is Offline

Mood: dangerously practical

[*] posted on 22-7-2013 at 06:04
Metallurgy -- brittle metals


again i post about metals, dont know if chemistry in general is the place to post about this?

anyhow, what i have gotten in my mind is brittle metals, as we all know, finer particles = faster reaction

i got onto this idea by magnalium, an magnesium and aluminium alloy of 50-50 by weight, its melted together and colled down, powdered by various methods
the finished metal is so brittle that if you squeeze a chunk with pliers or similar it will powder, crumble and fly to all sides
this has an application in pyrotechnics, as 80 mesh for flares

to the main point: i looked up what this is called, its seemingly called 'Intermetallic' compound

it seems to be possible to make CuZn brittle aswell, both are hard materials and only copper can be produced easily in a fine powder, but zinc is harder to produce in fine powders
i couldnt find anything on this wonderful brittle metal alloy ''Roman yellow brass, CuZn''
as by proportions etc.

so im asking if any of you have heard anything similar to the properties of magnalium?
meaning, a very easy manufacturing of metal powders, to be reacted with anhydrous gasses and so forth

edit -- link to wiki site on Intermetallic

[Edited on 22-7-2013 by Antiswat]




~25 drops = 1mL @dH2O viscocity - STP
Truth is ever growing - but without context theres barely any such.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solubility_table
http://www.trimen.pl/witek/calculators/stezenia.html
View user's profile View All Posts By User
bfesser
Resident Wikipedian
*****




Posts: 2114
Registered: 29-1-2008
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 22-7-2013 at 06:41


As it so happens, while trolling through old posts looking for good stuff for my <strong><a href="viewthread.php?tid=25000">Topical Compendium</a></strong>, I came across a few threads relating to copper powders. I haven't added them to the compendium yet, but here are a couple relevant finds:<ul><li><strong><a href="viewthread.php?tid=2654#pid29059">Self-made Copper powder (fine precipitation)</a></strong></li><li><strong><a href="viewthread.php?tid=44">Reduction of copper(II) by fructose</a></strong></li></ul>And these are already on the compendium:<ul><li><strong><a href="viewthread.php?tid=23967">Pyrophoric copper: How?</a></strong></li><li><a href="viewthread.php?tid=17619#pid222867">[untitled post]</a></li></ul>(I haven't added them yet, because I'm trying to fix the broken links and images beforehand.)

[edit]
peach reported pyrophoricity of copper residues left from destructive distillation of copper(II) acetate.
<a href="viewthread.php?tid=10948#pid201138">The Wiki method to copper acetate and distillation</a>

[Edited on 28.7.13 by bfesser]




View user's profile View All Posts By User
SM2
National Hazard
****




Posts: 359
Registered: 8-5-2012
Location: the Irish Springs
Member Is Offline

Mood: Affect

[*] posted on 22-7-2013 at 06:57


bfesser is right. In lieu of having the right, dedicated hardward, going for a colloid is the best, and the particle size WILL be very small. I've played with brittle metals and metaloids, both at room temp., and liq. N2. Usually I just get a fracture along the crystalline lattice. Some metals (like tungsten) and sometimes made into solid form by combining the W powder with a *tiny* bit of something else (which mostly escapes during the procedure), and applying great pressure and heat to the mass.



"Old men who speak of victory
shed light upon their stolen life
they - drive by night- and act as if they're
moved by unheard music." B. Currie
View user's profile View All Posts By User
unionised
International Hazard
*****




Posts: 4950
Registered: 1-11-2003
Location: UK
Member Is Offline

Mood: No Mood

[*] posted on 22-7-2013 at 13:02


Trust me, getting brittle metals isn't always a matter of messing about with liquid nitrogen etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_pest
View user's profile View All Posts By User
 Pages:  1  2  

  Go To Top