tetrahedron
Hazard to Others
Posts: 210
Registered: 28-9-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
sodium fluoride from calcium fluoride and sodium phosphate
here's a breakthrough on my quest for soluble fluorides without HF. the solubility product of fluorapatite1
(Ca5(PO4)3F) is around 10-60, while for fluorite2 (aka fluorspar,
CaF2) this value is several orders of magnitude larger, around 10-10. this led me to contemplate the following theoretical
reaction:
10 CaF2 + 6 Na3PO4 ---> 2 Ca5(PO4)3F + 18
NaF
to be carried out in boiling aqueous solution, driven by the precipitation of fluorapatite. i found evidence that this approach could work:
| Quote: | | CaF2 can be converted to fluorapatite in phosphate solutions at various temperatures ranging between 25 and 75°C in the pH range of 6.5 to
8.53 |
i think the mechanism involves two steps:
1. 3 CaF2 + 2 Na3PO4 --->
Ca3(PO4)2 + 6 NaF
2. Ca3(PO4)2 + CaF2 ---> 2
Ca5(PO4)3F
the solubility product of calcium phosphate1 is around 10-30, so the first step must be the bottleneck. the
second step should proceed almost quantitatively. both an excess of CaF2 and a fine grain are probably in order, given the risk of the less
soluble Ca3(PO4)2 coating and inactivating the particles.
1 Ionic Product and Solubility Product
2 Selected Solubility Products and Formation Constants at 25oC (note: this source gives slightly different Ksp values for the
above-mentioned compounds)
3 Transformation of Calcium Fluoride for Caries Prevention
any thoughts, suggestions, and offhanded attempts at debunking my scheme are warmly welcome =D
[Edited on 9-11-2012 by tetrahedron]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
For CaF2 this resource:
http://www.ktf-split.hr/periodni/en/abc/kpt.html
… gives a value of 3.45 x 10<sup>-11</sup> for Ks, so not hugely different from your value and still much, much higher than values for
calcium orthophosphate or fluorapatite.
There’s no real reason to expect that such a displacement reaction from an insoluble ionic compound to an even more insoluble ionic compound can’t
proceed (see e.g. the home lab preparation of KOH solutions from K2CO3 and Ca(OH)2, thanks to the isolubility of CaCO3) but expect it to be fairly
slow. Also, NaF isn’t highly soluble (about 4 g/100 g water, fairly flat over temperature), so unless you get the concentrations really right
you’ll still have to leach the NaF from the solid gunge.
It’s also a recipe for seriously etched glass ware!
And if you really are going to dabble in the chemistry of soluble fluorides, be prepared to gloved and goggled up: they're nasty...
[Edited on 10-11-2012 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Lambda-Eyde
National Hazard
Posts: 857
Registered: 20-11-2008
Location: Norway
Member Is Offline
Mood: Cleaved
|
|
Very nice work, now carry it out and give us experimental results. 
I thought this only occured with HF? Or at least to a lesser extent with fluorides only?
Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25  | And if you really are going to dabble in the chemistry of soluble fluorides, be prepared to gloved and goggled up: they're nasty...
|
This right here. Don't underestimate fluorine and its compounds!
This just in: 95,5 % of the world population lives outside the USA
You should really listen to ABBAPlease drop by our IRC channel: #sciencemadness @ irc.efnet.org
|
|
|
Eddygp
National Hazard
Posts: 858
Registered: 31-3-2012
Location: University of York, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: Organometallic
|
|
A good idea would be to melt them to get some interesting reactions, (maybe not fluoroapatite as the phosphate would change) but it isn't as easy to
do.
there may be bugs in gfind
[ˌɛdidʒiˈpiː] IPA pronunciation for my Username |
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Lambda-Eyde | Very nice work, now carry it out and give us experimental results.
I thought this only occured with HF? Or at least to a lesser extent with fluorides only?
This right here. Don't underestimate fluorine and its compounds! |
There is HF present (in small amounts) in that set up. That’s because the equilibrium F<sup>-</sup> + H<sub>2</sub>O <
=== > HF + OH<sup>-</sup> that wasn’t mentioned (HF is actually a quite weak Bronsted acid), also rules. Very alkaline conditions
would push that back to the left but these conditions weren’t recommended.
Re. fluorine compounds, it depends a lot what compounds we’re talking about : non-stick pans are coated with Teflon remember? But soluble ionic
fluoride compounds are very toxic: that too is due to hydrolysis because the resulting HF is quite soluble in cell membranes and once inside human (or
animal) tissue it seeks out Ca<sup>2+</sup> ions in our electrolyte balance, precipitating them as CaF2. Burns that are painful and hard
to heal…
[Edited on 10-11-2012 by blogfast25]
[Edited on 10-11-2012 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by Eddygp | | A good idea would be to melt them to get some interesting reactions, (maybe not fluoroapatite as the phosphate would change) but it isn't as easy to
do. |
Hmmm... in a melt you're not really taking advantage of the magnitudes of difference in the solubility product, which is what this 'wet' proposal
relies upon. In a fusion you'd rely more on Heats of Formation to determine what mix of compounds you end up with after solidification. Different
thing altogether.
|
|
|
tetrahedron
Hazard to Others
Posts: 210
Registered: 28-9-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
thanks for the tips guys.
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | in a melt you're not really taking advantage of the magnitudes of difference in the solubility product, which is what this 'wet' proposal relies upon.
|
there's also the kinetics aspect, which might be favored by high temperatures. does anyone know the melting point of anhydrous
Na3PO4?
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | There is HF present (in small amounts) in that set up. That’s because the equilibrium F<sup>-</sup> + H<sub>2</sub>O <
=== > HF + OH<sup>-</sup> that wasn’t mentioned (HF is actually a quite weak Bronsted acid), also rules. Very alkaline conditions
would push that back to the left but these conditions weren’t recommended. |
Na3PO4 powder is sold as a degreaser. its solutions are basic, so the formation of HF in my procedure should be inhibited. i
have a box but i couldn't find it, so i made it myself from phosphoric acid, adding enough soda until fizzing stopped, and then some, and
crystallizing it out by cooling. this was quickly washed and used as is without further purification or measurement, and mixed with a 150% molar
excess of washed pottery grade CaF2, filled with enough distilled water to make bumping (pretty bad due to a heavy sludge) manageable, and
boiled twice for ~30' with cooling in between. the product was decanted, the supernatant reduced some more and is now out to crystallize. i have more
precise figures but before disclosing them i want a yield. a picture of the crop so far (contrast enhanced):
the crystals have the appearance of serrated spearheads and a spicy aftertaste (kidding!)
edit. according to this video on the growth of Na2CO3, the needle-like backbone could be due to this compound, while the phosphate and/or
fluoride contribute to the sawtooth ('dendritic') effect. here the crystal habit of NaF in the presence of cosolutes is discussed. it seems octahedra or cubes are pretty much the norm.
i shouldn't get my hopes up of finding any cubes during the cooling then. the gunge looks unchanged, but i'll see what i can squeeze out of it.
[Edited on 11-11-2012 by tetrahedron]
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by tetrahedron | | Na3PO4 powder is sold as a degreaser. its solutions are basic, so the formation of HF in my procedure should be inhibited.
|
Look at it like this: if the scheme works, you end up with a saturated solution of NaF. Trust me, that etches glass albeit slowly. The equilibria are
what they are and you have some HF in there.
Just how bad the attack would be depends on temperature and duration, primarily.
One reason why I’m not enormously interested in synthing NaF is that it’s not very useful because it’s not very soluble. You may have to
evaporate large volumes of NaF bearing solution to obtain relatively little solid product. Which ideally you then need to convert to NH4F (dry
distillation with NH4Cl – see Brauer) to have something useful. Also, NH4HF2 is quite cheap.
[Edited on 10-11-2012 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
Vargouille
Hazard to Others
Posts: 380
Registered: 16-4-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Since potassium and ammonium fluorides are much more soluble than the sodium version, potassium being the most soluble of the three, perhaps
attempting the experiment once over with potassium or ammonium phosphate (either purchased or made analogously to the sodium version with something
like KOH or NH3 as a base) will achieve a better yield of a soluble fluoride. This way you can avoid a laborious leeching process. On the other hand,
the etching of any glassware used is likely to increase as well, since the increase in fluoride concentration lends to an increase in HF
concentration.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Good points, Vargoulle.
|
|
|
12AX7
Post Harlot
Posts: 4803
Registered: 8-3-2005
Location: oscillating
Member Is Offline
Mood: informative
|
|
I expect the reaction would proceed in a melt as well.
Given the low solubilities, an autoclave would be handy here. Given also that glass may be corroded (additional to the weak presence of molecular HF,
wouldn't the presence of F- also complex silicon to form hexafluorosilicate ions?), a metal container may be advisable. Is steel corrosion-resistant
under the influence of fluoride? How about stainless? Whatever the material, pipes can be purchased, electric heater cord applied and the assembly
monitored from a distance, under a well-weighted-down blast shield.
Tim
|
|
|
plante1999
International Hazard
Posts: 1936
Registered: 27-12-2010
Member Is Offline
Mood: Mad as a hatter
|
|
Iron handle extremely well hydrogen fluoride and probably fluoride too. Most of my fluoride/fluorine related experiment are done in iron with
satisfying result. I guess stainless steel is good but iron do the job so well and is so cheap that I don't think it worth using stainless steel.
[Edited on 11-11-2012 by plante1999]
I never asked for this.
|
|
|
tetrahedron
Hazard to Others
Posts: 210
Registered: 28-9-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
upon standing outside ovenight a crop of small (0.1 - 1 mm) crystals formed on the walls of the beaker. under the microscope these show an irregular
shape, almost amorphous:
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Look at it like this: if the scheme works, you end up with a saturated solution of NaF. Trust me, that etches glass albeit slowly. The equilibria are
what they are and you have some HF in there. |
unfortunately i didn't notice any etching, so i have no proof of a saturated NaF solution.
| Quote: Originally posted by Vargouille | | Since potassium and ammonium fluorides are much more soluble than the sodium version, potassium being the most soluble of the three, perhaps
attempting the experiment once over with potassium or ammonium phosphate (either purchased or made analogously to the sodium version with something
like KOH or NH3 as a base) will achieve a better yield of a soluble fluoride. This way you can avoid a laborious leeching process. On the other hand,
the etching of any glassware used is likely to increase as well, since the increase in fluoride concentration lends to an increase in HF
concentration. |
sodium fluoride is classified as toxic by ingestion but only 'irritating' to skin. handling it in the absence of acids is not especially dangerous.
ammonium fluoride is a different beast, it can sublime, etc. let alone the bifluoride. the potassium analog would be a practical alternative, but
potassium salts are more expensive.
| Quote: Originally posted by 12AX7 | | Given also that glass may be corroded (additional to the weak presence of molecular HF, wouldn't the presence of F- also complex silicon to form
hexafluorosilicate ions?), a metal container may be advisable. |
i guess the affinity of fluoride for phosphate must be higher than for silicate.
[Edited on 11-11-2012 by tetrahedron]
|
|
|
Vargouille
Hazard to Others
Posts: 380
Registered: 16-4-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
They are not so much more expensive that using potassium rather than sodium is inadvisable. At 100C, NaF has a solubility in water of 5.05 g/ 100 mL,
and 4.04 g/ 100 mL at 20C. KF, on the other hand, has a solubility of about 350 g/ 100 mL at only 18C. KOH is more expensive than NaOH, but only by a
few dollars. K2CO3 and KHCO3 are quite a bit more expensive than their sodium counterparts, (and, interestingly, they are also more expensive than
KOH, at least on the places I saw them sold, so KOH is probably a better idea) but the increased yield of fluoride would still justify it.
|
|
|
blogfast25
International Hazard
Posts: 10562
Registered: 3-2-2008
Location: Neverland
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Filter off the supernatant solution till perfectly clear. Test for fluoride ions with strong CaCl2 (or equivalent soluble Ca salt) solution. CaF2 when
I last saw it forming, forms a kind of slightly gelatinus precipitate. At low concetration of fluoride it may take some time to 'develop'.
How long did you stew your brew for? With such low solubility of one of the reagents its concentration is very low and thus reaction rates can't be
very high.
[Edited on 11-11-2012 by blogfast25]
[Edited on 11-11-2012 by blogfast25]
|
|
|
tetrahedron
Hazard to Others
Posts: 210
Registered: 28-9-2012
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | Filter off the supernatant solution till perfectly clear. Test for fluoride ions with strong CaCl2 (or equivalent soluble Ca salt) solution. CaF2 when
I last saw it forming, forms a kind of slightly gelatinus precipitate. At low concetration of fluoride it may take some time to 'develop'.
|
i gave up on this synth, it's been a disappointment. i might try the potassium analog instead.
| Quote: Originally posted by blogfast25 | | How long did you stew your brew for? With such low solubility of one of the reagents its concentration is very low and thus reaction rates can't be
very high. |
twice for about 30 minutes. actually the equilibrium constants say nothing about the speed of the reaction. what matters is how fast each calcium
compound goes into solution/precipitates. moreover, in the absence of a global equilibrium constant the 'common ion effect' is only approximately
right. what's certain is that due to the high phosphate (and possibly fluoride) concentration very little calcium will be present in solution at any
time.
| Quote: Originally posted by Vargouille | | They are not so much more expensive that using potassium rather than sodium is inadvisable. At 100C, NaF has a solubility in water of 5.05 g/ 100 mL,
and 4.04 g/ 100 mL at 20C. KF, on the other hand, has a solubility of about 350 g/ 100 mL at only 18C. KOH is more expensive than NaOH, but only by a
few dollars. K2CO3 and KHCO3 are quite a bit more expensive than their sodium counterparts, (and, interestingly, they are also more expensive than
KOH, at least on the places I saw them sold, so KOH is probably a better idea) but the increased yield of fluoride would still justify it.
|
my Na2CO3 is like $3/kg, beat that with any potassium salt ;p for a small-scale proof-of-concept prep KCO3 would be
preferable though.
[Edited on 13-11-2012 by tetrahedron]
|
|
|
![[*]](images/xpblue/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
