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Author: Subject: Life after detonation
hames
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[*] posted on 3-12-2012 at 23:20


I recrystalise my etn with ten grams of etn per hundred millilitres of ethanol at about 40-50 degrees C using the hotwater out of my tap which comes out at approximately 65 degrees C, I havent used methanol but I would consider that solution fairly concentrated.
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[*] posted on 4-12-2012 at 13:33


Well, well. I'm surprised, what stupid thing well- experienced people make. Dear @Yamato71, why didn't you use simple hot water bath? And as I got from your article, you tried to evaporate MEOH in your own kitchen? Its vapor is very toxic. Such op must be performed only with proper ventilation or at open air. And no fire extinguisher in a hand-reach when you worked with large amount of flammable liquid (to say nothing about dissolved hi- explosive? I can see only typical syndrome "I hold Gog's balls in my right hand". You broke so many rules that I can only say that result was more than logical. I made my own stupid things (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=16612&...), but at least I never claimed that I was very experienced boy and therefore I can ignore all precautionary measures.



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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Yamato71
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[*] posted on 4-12-2012 at 14:44


Thanks for getting my point, cat. I screwed up! Me, with more than 40 years of lab and explosives experience. I screwed up and because of that fact my wife opens the ketchup bottles now. If I can make such a dreadful series of mistakes, anybody can, only in this field of study, mistakes are often bloody, hideous and second chances are extremely rare. Actually, the outcome of this accident was better than I deserved. Had detonation occurred while I was blowing on the beaker, the outcome could have been far worse than death. My surgeon is of the opinion that such a scenario would have scoured out my eyes, ripped off my ears and de-fleshed my face, without killing me. If that had happened, I'd likely be going through life now blind, deaf and ugly as a mud fence.

[Edited on 4-12-2012 by Yamato71]

[Edited on 5-12-2012 by Yamato71]
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[*] posted on 4-12-2012 at 20:37


Well, I'll describe MY OWN experience with more details. I think, I have no need to reproduce here what my friend told about you- surely you did it many times and I cannot add something new. Things, yeah, could have been much worse.



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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[*] posted on 8-12-2012 at 16:51


How come no glass got launched into your body or face?
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[*] posted on 8-12-2012 at 19:28


Who said no glass was launched into my body or face? I soaked up an enormous amount of pulverized glass and hot shrapnel, mostly in my chest, arms and neck. Remarkably, with the exception of two small holes in my chin containing fragments of bone from my shattered fingers, my face survived fairly intact. To this day, 764 days after the accident, tiny pieces of glass and bone are still painfully working their way out of my skin.

[Edited on 9-12-2012 by Yamato71]
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[*] posted on 8-12-2012 at 20:08


i have always been terrified of glass..and this is not helping! case in point..
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=13214&...

always stay away from heating glassware..




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[*] posted on 9-12-2012 at 17:44


I figured you would have mentioned it if it happened. Seems like it would be an integral part of your narrative of the incident.

You're very fortunate to not have had an eye pierced or something like that.
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[*] posted on 10-12-2012 at 00:43


Well, here is the most stupid action of mine. It was in 1969. I was started with home made black powder and soon realized that it would be interesting to prepare something more efficient. But I had failures by failures. The only compound that I was able to synthesize was gun cotton- few grams only. I burned some hexamine in RFNA and got only red smoke instead of RDX. I made some stinking black shit instead of picric acid. Once I tried to blow up something simple like AN + Al- 3:1, 200gr approximately. I used as a detonator brass case with my black powder. Actually, I was waiting for nothing extra ordinal. But it was something! Tremendous sound and fountain of fire. I wanted to repeat this achievement, but without success. Mixtures of AN with Al wanted to detonate no more. I told myself, that I would get them to do what I wanted and prepared few grams of mercury fulminate. At that time I used mixture of AN + dinitronaphthalene (I do not sure, what it really was- at least, I tried to prepare this compound). A tin from under cacao was filled with aforementioned mixture. But I did not use a separate blasting cup. Instead, I made a small hole in the charge and simple filled it up with MF (I made it in open space, not in my home, but it was very weak excuse). I do not remember now, what I used to press MF- a match or my finger, but at least it did not explode at that very moment. I had a fuse too- an ancient paper rope, boiled with KNO3 and dried. But this so-called “fuse” made sparkles and did not wanted to burn properly. Fire died down once and twice. When I ignited it at the third time, there was the rest no longer than a match. I got up, made one step aside and turned my head to the right to see if it burns. Sound was very weak, but I saw flying grass and immediately realized that it was me who flied above it. I did not lose conscience. There was no smoke, but only some sand in air. I got up and started to examine myself. The right side of my trousers was covered with soul and blood. Drops of blood were on my right arm too. My ankle-bone was thick as if someone hit it with a stick. Steel clasp at my right shoe was cut in half with a splinter. I realized that this splinter most likely was now in my leg. And I permanently heard not very loud hi- frequency noise. Well, what I had to do? The first idea was how to hide this accident from my parents. But soon I mustered, that in such case it hardly would be done. Nothing to do, I took my bike and ride home. My dad called a nurse, what lived in our home. She washed my injured leg, and I remember what I thought, looking at blood, draining from many holes on my leg and slowly transforming into dark red gel. Believe or not, but my idea was: “what a pity, it could be used for fishing". Then they bring me to the nearest hospital, where I spend one week. They made nothing with me there except bandaging what could be done in my home, of course. There was some strange consequences of this accident- next day I couldn’t walk at all and after three days I had to stop twice and breathe when I was going up to the second floor. Yeah, splinters made his way out of my body for some years after it. Some still are there, but they do not make me troubles (but twice they were discovered in airports when I was going through metal detectors). But in fact I have to admit, that the price for such experience was not very hi. Later I lost my right eye, but it was absolutely different story.



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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[*] posted on 21-12-2012 at 00:49


Wow, how are you now, so you saved 1 hand ? How did you type all this btw ? lol ?

[Edited on 21-12-2012 by KonkreteRocketry]
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Antiswat
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[*] posted on 29-12-2012 at 14:18


wow, thats a crazy thing to survive..
i never tried anything alike, but that you end it telling people to be careful, and not telling to stop is the wisest..
guess it would be a good idea to heat up every beaker you buy with something like water in it before you do it with high explosives or anything alike..
huge respect for you coming back and telling us all about this!




comfortably ignorant or hatredfully knowing
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[*] posted on 30-12-2012 at 16:34


Thanks. The decision to post this did not come easily, but I feel that doing so would be a way to salvage some good out of this horror show.
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[*] posted on 2-1-2013 at 10:32


Quote: Originally posted by Antiswat  
wow, thats a crazy thing to survive..
i never tried anything alike, but that you end it telling people to be careful, and not telling to stop is the wisest..


My body is kinda busted up from sports and work. Chemistry is one of the safer things I do. One does not simply stop what they are good and passionate about. Sometimes this happens:
http://9gag.com/gag/6181144?ref=fb.s /has happened to me, but with pyrotechnic composition instead of the chain saw.
Then only safety measures and small amounts is what may keep you from big harm. In my opinion energetic materials can be safer then for example skying...
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[*] posted on 3-1-2013 at 02:01


I have received third degree burns on my hands and first to second on my face ..... Fucking around with Armstrong mix..
I used to put a couple of dabs of Armstrong mix wetted with acetone in aluminium foil and roll it up into wizard balls as when I would huck them at the ground they would go off with a flash and a puff of thick smoke.
Impressive .... To friends who didn't know chemistry !!
Little did I know .... That acetone can evaporate from a closed film can !!!!
And when the next time I popped the lid to make "wizard balls" ...... poof !! 3/4 of a film canister filled with Armstrong mix goes off within a few inches of my face.
My fingers were scorched ..... My face was numb .... And all I could do was cough .....
And that's all I could do for a few days straight .... Along with a weird metallic taste in my mouth.
Then on the fourth day my parents showed me a mirror ..... I burst into tears .... I looked like a freak show. I couldn't be taken to a hospital ...... Try and explain how I got burnt with controlled substances.
I can thank GOD cause I healed over time ... And just fine ... No scars.
I am VERY VERY Fortunate. The incident that took place was my stupidity and I did not blame chemistry .... Which is why i still partake in this sport.
But having said that ... I did learn a few valuable lessons..
Never underestimate Murphy's law and respect chemical energy
I am fine now (physically anyways .... Lol) ... Learned from my mistakes and of others. I'll always keep learning ... The day I stop to learn is the day I die..

[Edited on 3-1-2013 by Motherload]




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"Fuck It !! We'll do it live !!"
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[*] posted on 3-1-2013 at 22:37


Yamato71 - thank you for the reminder. I think every person on this board needs to hear what can happen when things go wrong (and I certainly include myself). We all know it intellectually, but irrationally think "it won't happen to me". The only way to be sure of that is to live in a bubble. Short of that, we all have to try to make our luck by taking reasonable precautions and planning for when the unexpected happens. In an emergency, people don't think, they react. Planning and drilling help to shape these reactions at a time when we have the luxury of thinking things through. It helps to convert an emergency into a contingency, in the military's words.



Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the show?
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[*] posted on 4-1-2013 at 01:32


Thank you for sharing your story and I'am sorry for your loss

but why didn't you run like hell when you heard the crack?

lab-ware loss is not equal to the loss of a limb for sure
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[*] posted on 9-1-2013 at 00:25


I don't mean to be rude or sound insensitive, but how is it that an engineer with 40 + years of experience with explosives and chemistry uses procedures obtained from this site? Could you not have calculated everything yourself?
Even if you did use the procedures from this site, a well experienced chemist or engineer would have taken safety into consideration, that is what engineers do.

I somehow have a hard time believing this story to the full extent. I do not want to trash you in any way, if everything is true then you have my absolute condolences and sincere apology. Whether or not this is what it is, there are still many lessons that can be learnt from it and all the people that has had incidents and were willing to share the details with us.

I also made many mistakes when I was younger. I nearly blinded myself with a blast of hot sand coming from the 25g flash powder charge exploding under the trash can lid I was standing on... I was 15 at the time and no experience and no training, just a skinny pimple faced teenager that wanted to impress his friends with mindless acts.



[Edited on 9-1-2013 by badabooom]
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[*] posted on 9-1-2013 at 12:33


Oh you can believe it. Those 40 years of experience include the first 20 that were done in the kitchen and garage, without benefit of an organic chemistry education. I went back to school on my 40's. I've been licensed less than ten years, but I do indeed have more than 40 years of experience in energetics. As for using methods found on this site, any professional chemist will tell you that some of the most creative chemistry in the world is underground chemistry. This is especially true for underground drug chemists. The government keeps banning and regulating access to precursors and the kitchen chemists keep coming up with work-arounds. The same holds true for this community. Don't sell yourselves short, some of the most ingenious chemistry happens in forums such as this one. If you read my account again, you'll see that I resorted to an alternate method of nitration because I was out of WFNA. I didn't get into trouble because I used a method I read in this forum, I got into trouble because I did it badly.
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[*] posted on 10-1-2013 at 23:23


Quote: Originally posted by SM2  
A timely warning. The lesson? Thoroughly test the actual glass you'll be using. Burn it in. Do do that w/ water. Also good Pyrex is properly ahneeled, and should survive the stress of a red hot source with no water inside it, just dry, then directly into an ice bath. Now, I'm not saying it's good practice, but doing this a couple times successfully, ruggedizes the Pyrex even more. The lesson then is to be comfortable with the glassware you are using. Unfortunately, Pyrex randomly cracks as well, but usually after 2-300 cycles.
It's a good idea to first test the glass ware with water, I also do this when I get new glassware. But the second suggestion of putting a red hot flask in ice water seems quite stupid to me. What if this introduces a small crack, which goes unnoticed? Then at a later time this can cause big accidents when the flask is full of toxic or flammable material.



The art of wondering makes life worth living...
Want to wonder? Look at http://www.oelen.net/science
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[*] posted on 11-1-2013 at 00:16


Or use preheated solvents, that way there are no explosives present while heating. That way if there is a crack big F***ing deal let the solvent spill all over the place and burn, so long as there are no explosives present while the heat source is present.

But you guys are missing the big point. YOU are NOT safe while handling or manufacturing explosives. Just because you read a few not what to do because someone did that and it ruined their life does not mean you know what to do to be safe. Max Klemke (aka myfanwy) died because of this... he thought that since most people make this mistake that he could avoid that and be safe.

I realize little can change and nothing will change the mind of a stubborn person. Energetics are one of the worse things to do this with. Max Klemke he kept on working with toxins even after a case of hydrogen cyanide poisoning. I kept on working with energetics after i blew off parts of three of my digits, but where we differ is i realized that stay safe from these dangerous compounds.

I know people use peroxide caps and all kinds of unstable stuff. that is where most people go wrong with the caps. This is rare absent minded that a person would have an accident with a secondary or borderline secondary. This is what i mean though was the author of this thread stupid in what he did yes, was he usually stupid probable not. It is that one incredibly stupid decision or reaction you make that ruins it all. Like when you lose your car keys, misplace the tv remote, throw away the new milk jug and put the empty back in the fridge. You feel stupid for doing these thing, but they can happen and they will the stakes are much higher though.

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[*] posted on 11-1-2013 at 00:47


I was young and stupid when i did what i did. (by the way this will be the first time i have ever shared this full story with anyone it has been decades). It resulted in loss of the distil section of my thumb, index, and middle finger. It was retarded what i did, but this kind of thing can and will happen to you. By the time you realize what you just did all you can see is white and all you can hear is ringing in your ears, everything will seem slow motion for a few long seconds. You will not feel any thing but well it's a feeling that can not be described in the English language when you try to move an you are stunned. When you snap back into it you well hopefully you won't have to experience the rest, because it does not get better for a while.

I played around with peroxides (mainly htmd). I built a cap that was about 2.5" long out of a plastic drinking straw. it had one hot glue plug. It was meant for a particular AN charge. I had heard of incidents here the htmd or other explosives would go off while pouring the compound into the casing due to static. I was smarter than that (again knew of one thing though i was invincible) so what did i do? when i put in the hot glue plug in the center of it i put a length of copper wire though the center to ground it. It did not go off while i was pressing the cap full with htmd.

after a while my AN compound i used became obsolete. so i had not use for the cap. keep in mind i both lived in side a small town, and that cap had been storing for months. BAD idea.

I had a way that i liked which was to take a cardboard shipping tube, and on the end cap for that glue on a smaller cardboard tube. i would make an ematch ( a make shift one), and i would put it though the end cap, and into the smaller tube. I would pack cotton around the smaller tube inside the bigger one. I would then fill ht e smaller tube (while using the ematch to ground it) with my primary, and seal it up with modeling clay.

I made one of these using sewing needles and steel wool to make an ematch. So i needed some primary for it... What else would you do, but go over to the tool chest and grab the cap that you don't need anymore. So in my right hand a grand the cap and pinched it, then wiggled it back and forth the htmd started coming out, then i realized what i was doing, so what else to do but grab the cap in your left hand and cut it with some scissors. I do not remember whether or not i cut the cap slowly or if a snapped it closed so i would hear the sound of the scissors snapping shut. Any ways that was the moment of detonation. You will not remember it the moment that will change your life that most will not be part of your memory, just white vision an ear ringing. You will snap back to reality in about 4 seconds depending on charge size, but it feels like forever.

I was young and stupid. I had one brain fart that messed it all up. I had worked with tatp and htmd for years before that with out incident. My theory is that the grounding wire acted as an anvil and caused it to go off, also storing it for more then a few minuets was a bad idea. If you keep on working with energetics something like this will happen to you given enough time. People try to say that these primary are just so sensitive that they will go off to the touch, or that the pressure caused by closing a door can set off any of it in the room. They do this to prevent people from using them. It does not work and should be stopped now. Anybody who wants to make it and has the chemical will, and they will do sensitivity testing on it, and it won't seem nearly as bad as described so they feel safe around it. This got me as it had gotten many others. the moment that you are not so scared of them is the one that the explosives will get you in. When you are damn close to shitting your pants from fear and respect for the compound you are working with you will remember proper code for dealing with it, and what it takes to set it off.

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[*] posted on 11-1-2013 at 01:48


Quote: Originally posted by isobutane  
If you keep on working with energetics something like this will happen to you given enough time.



I must disagree with you there. Given the proper amount of training and experience and also having the correct attitude can make all the difference. A good example of this is Dr. Sidney Alford.

I must also agree with you in saying that people should always respect the energetics they are working with, but that respect should not be limited to the energetics but should also be taken into consideration for the chemicals you are working with as some may be toxic and highly reactive by themselves.

I don't want to beat a dead horse but, Peroxides is a big No No! Unfortunately it is the starting point for less experienced experimenters as this is possibly the easiest energetic to make. The synthesis itself is also hard to stuff up (compared to Nitrations). Unfortunately this ease comes at a price that is not worth it. The fact that peroxides are notoriously dangerous combined with inexperienced people is a recipe for disaster. Typing TATP or HMTD into the you tube search bar results in numerous youngsters playing around with the stuff.

There is a reason why these peroxides are not used commercially. However I still don't believe that it is energetics that injure people, its people that injure people. Its that one lapse in judge and concentration that could end ugly.

And yes, it can happen to ANYONE! No one is invincible and no one is immune. The only thing you can do is to be very careful and have all the required safety measures in place. Don't take short cuts! We all did it at some point, decided not to wear our safety glasses because its just a "quick" experiment. I remember when I was very young and still playing with the energetics as if it were fireworks, I had done so REALLY stupid shit! Like melt sealing a straw filled with NG! and assembling a 500g ANFO charge with a TATP cap and a 10ml NG booster, then carrying the live charge for over 4km to the testing site in 40C temperatures. How I had no incident is either up to dumb luck or some form of devine intervention. Fortunately I had learnt my lesson from close calls only and other's mistakes.


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[*] posted on 11-1-2013 at 03:58


Quote:
A good example of this is Dr. Sidney Alford.

Not to mention Alfred Nobel who did his thing at a time when NGl was new, feared, misunderstood and apparently really only useful as a drug for relief of angina . . .

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[*] posted on 11-1-2013 at 11:25


Quote: Originally posted by badabooom  
Quote: Originally posted by isobutane  
If you keep on working with energetics something like this will happen to you given enough time.



I must disagree with you there. Given the proper amount of training and experience and also having the correct attitude can make all the difference. A good example of this is Dr. Sidney Alford.




Yeah Dr.Sidney is difference though. I guarantee he knows as much about energetics as any living man could reasonably know. He knows just about every thing about all the ins and outs of the science. If people are reading about this on the internet and using the info they find on the internet they are no Dr. Sidney Alford. He is pretty much one of a kind.

He started learning about military explosives at a very young age. He dedicate his life to learning and improving on them. I would expect nothing less for the amount of effort he put into the field.

Also yeah peroxides are horrible storing them even worse, but you have to remember i did what i did like 30 years ago. Back then it was not exactly easy access to the internet or anything of the like (at least not for a teen). That is also kind of my point. If you need to read on how to be safe with explosives in order to know that they are bad for storage or have an affinity to go off, then you should not be working with them.

Dr. Sidney Alford i am sure that if he were to have done testing on tatp or any peroxide that he would have found out that they don't have any practical use. My point is if you can't identify where things will go wrong and know how to fix it with out any help, then you probably should not be working with it.
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[*] posted on 11-1-2013 at 16:10


Mercury fulminate was widely used. Does it mean, that MF is not as dangerous as TATP? TATP is volatile compound and it is its main disadvantage. If one uses all necessary precautionary measures and makes small amount of hi-explosive, its preparation is surely much less dangerous than crossing a street in a big city. Problems begin when arrogant boys ignore simple rules.



Women are more perilous sometimes, than any hi explosive.
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