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Author: Subject: Life after detonation
XeonTheMGPony
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[*] posted on 4-12-2016 at 07:35


Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
Interesting story as I had to make more HMTD for my caps, here for some reason drying any thing is a tedious proposition at best and was tempted to vacuum filter it on my fritted funnel.

But When I did the risk analysis first thing on the list was just that! getting it off the frit was just way to high risk a venture, and too much containment in the funnel made it more like a grenade then a filter method. So scratched the idea and here it is 3 days later still drying on the open coffe filter!

Going to be making a temperature gradiated vacuum desiccator for these things to make it berable

Worst case scenario must always be kept in mind...

Glass shrapnells cut and pierce flesh...hard plastic too...just like metal or wood...in close viccinity

So better think to safer soft plastic beakers...in the case of a bad event...consequences will be less.

With peroxydes, the worst is always to be feared so tiny quantities is a must...
Special care to this since with the cheap price of inital ingredients, one often puts 50-100ml easily into reaction and gets finally 50-200g of final product...what is totally irresponsible (I speak from experience with CTAP although I had no bad event, I was uncomfortable with the amount of crystals it produced)...

[Edited on 16-11-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]


Growing up in a remote logging camp you learn fast that if you do not think you die (Same for panic, you panic you die, every one should say this to them selfs morning and night, you can panic after wards but befor it will be the end of you), I find my self even running risk analysis when just making coffee, it truly is a mind set of thinking.

If I do this, how can it go wrong, and when it does what injuries could I receive, can it cause fire or vapor, so on.

It has saved me allot of times int he energetic's end of it, you get impatient and want to rush some thing then that little subroutine slams the breaks on and waves that Darwin award in front of you screaming "NOMINATED!"

Then you step back and realize had ya don it you'd be cleaned up with a sponge or what have you. As a kid saved a few people back in school too who would be missing some hands. All ways check your fuses for dusting of primary powder! Can't do its job when the flame has a short cut!

As for plastic at those forces glass / plastic is the same, the only safe thing is very care full and diligent procedure and distance and never work when you're tired or low blood sugar.

All my EM work is don in the noon after my after lunch nap! Fully awake alert and fed, that alone lowers risk hugely.
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PHILOU Zrealone
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[*] posted on 4-12-2016 at 11:27


Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
Quote: Originally posted by PHILOU Zrealone  
Quote: Originally posted by XeonTheMGPony  
Interesting story as I had to make more HMTD for my caps, here for some reason drying any thing is a tedious proposition at best and was tempted to vacuum filter it on my fritted funnel.

But When I did the risk analysis first thing on the list was just that! getting it off the frit was just way to high risk a venture, and too much containment in the funnel made it more like a grenade then a filter method. So scratched the idea and here it is 3 days later still drying on the open coffe filter!

Going to be making a temperature gradiated vacuum desiccator for these things to make it berable

Worst case scenario must always be kept in mind...

Glass shrapnells cut and pierce flesh...hard plastic too...just like metal or wood...in close viccinity

So better think to safer soft plastic beakers...in the case of a bad event...consequences will be less.

With peroxydes, the worst is always to be feared so tiny quantities is a must...
Special care to this since with the cheap price of inital ingredients, one often puts 50-100ml easily into reaction and gets finally 50-200g of final product...what is totally irresponsible (I speak from experience with CTAP although I had no bad event, I was uncomfortable with the amount of crystals it produced)...

[Edited on 16-11-2016 by PHILOU Zrealone]


Growing up in a remote logging camp you learn fast that if you do not think you die (Same for panic, you panic you die, every one should say this to them selfs morning and night, you can panic after wards but befor it will be the end of you), I find my self even running risk analysis when just making coffee, it truly is a mind set of thinking.

If I do this, how can it go wrong, and when it does what injuries could I receive, can it cause fire or vapor, so on.

It has saved me allot of times int he energetic's end of it, you get impatient and want to rush some thing then that little subroutine slams the breaks on and waves that Darwin award in front of you screaming "NOMINATED!"

Then you step back and realize had ya don it you'd be cleaned up with a sponge or what have you. As a kid saved a few people back in school too who would be missing some hands. All ways check your fuses for dusting of primary powder! Can't do its job when the flame has a short cut!

As for plastic at those forces glass / plastic is the same, the only safe thing is very care full and diligent procedure and distance and never work when you're tired or low blood sugar.

All my EM work is don in the noon after my after lunch nap! Fully awake alert and fed, that alone lowers risk hugely.

Nice way of living but stil when awake and fed peroxydes are an evil snake.

--> Soft plastic doesn't make schrapnells with cutting edges...because the molecules stretches/melt with the pressure and heat (much faster than glass or iron steel would)...also the density is less so the relative volume is bigger what means that surface is bigger also --> what slows down the flying piece much faster into air than glass or steel would.

Think twice ;):):D
-->why "non killing weapons" used by cops against strikers use rubber bullets?




PH Z (PHILOU Zrealone)

"Physic is all what never works; Chemistry is all what stinks and explodes!"-"Life that deadly disease, sexually transmitted."(W.Allen)
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wayne_m
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[*] posted on 2-7-2017 at 12:24


Great stories here.

Hopefully, mine will be relevant enough, even if it didn't result in permanent injury.

Even non-energetic materials (Energy absorbing, even?) can be pretty dangerous.
When I was much younger, and had no idea what I was doing, I put about 1/4 pound of dry ice in a 2-liter bottle. (Trying to store it, I think.) This was back in early days, when they still had those glued-on bases because the bottles were round-bottomed. The shape and thickness of the early bottles made them pretty strong; enough so that I got to observe liquid CO2, and watch it boil as I put my hand against the plastic.
About an hour after I capped it, I had it at the school, in the hallways of concrete floors, brick walls, and stuccoed overheads, when the inevitable happened.
In my case, the white-out was a cloud of vapor that obscured vision (I think) but the world disappeared into a low buzzing noise that faded into a ringing that lasted a couple of days.
The front of my coat was coated in ice, and I had some bruises on my hand. My guardian angel was working overtime that day: I had been holding it by the neck, and not by the side, and it was down by my side while I was looking the other way.

My hearing is still excellent, although I seem to be bothered by noises that other people don't find all that bad. I don't know whether that is caused by that incident, or whether I just got lucky enough not to have any permanent damage.

Since it was purely an expansion bomb, with no significant blast front, my eardrums and other bits survived relatively unscathed. Since it was heat-absorbing, I was not burned. Since it was PET and not glass, my jeans stopped the fragmentation with only minimal bruising.

But even thirty years later, I remember every moment in great detail - from the ice crystals formed on the buttons of my coat (even the writing stamped into those buttons!) to the teacher who stepped out of the classroom (chemistry lab, of course!) and asked - presumably - whether I was all right. I say presumably because I couldn't hear her. Or anything else.

A friend of mine was sitting in his mother's place of employment a quarter mile away, in a city with buildings between us, and I was on the far side of the building which channeled the sound away from him. Her place of employment was an auto shop, where mechanics use impact wrenches and other noisy tools, so the offices are moderately well sound proofed. He heard the boom.

To this day, any time I am around any kind of energetic materials, that is the first thing that pops into my mind. Call it PTSD or whatever, but if I don't see failsafes like secondary containment, static grounding, ventilation, pressure reliefs, interrupts, or any of the myriad other disaster-proofing schemes people have invented to protect us from ourselves, I will run - not walk - away from any involvement.

I still like a good loud bang, now and then, but only when I'm expecting it!

But even so, some things that don't seem to be so energetic can bite you when you least expect it. I once filled a paper cup with butane and lit it off, trying to make an amusing little pop (after having stashed the can at a safe distance, of course,) and it popped, sure enough, but some residual flame was still dancing around, and starting to set the paper on fire.
Sure enough... I did exactly what Yamato71 did. Thankfully, the vast majority of the butane was expended in the pop, and I only burned off my eyebrows when I blew on the flame.
Even as much experience as I had gained with flammable gases and even more energetic materials didn't give me any intuition for how much energy would be left in the tiny bit of residual gas in the cup.

I only hope and pray that my next mistake (and there will be one) is as minor as these were.
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theAngryLittleBunny
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[*] posted on 2-7-2017 at 15:52


This was one of the most terrifying things I've ever read. It reminds my of an accident I had about 2 months ago, it's really minir compared to this, it wasn't even with energetics, but I still can relate with this. So, I just wanted to make some adipic acid. I did this in my school lab, where we oxidized cyclohexanone with potadsium permanganate. But I had to evapourate a lot of water afterwards. So I just thought I'll just make it 4 times as concentrated. And since I just fidn't have a beaker at hand, I used a plastic bottle. So I dissolved 50 ml of cyclohexanone in 500 ml if water, and added the sochiometric amount (about 150g) of KMnO4, and a gram of NaOH to it. Then I did a really stupid thing, I closed the bottle and shook it. First, there really wasn't anything happening, but it got a little warm after a while, and I got really excited about that. Not too long after that, it became quite hot and pressure was building up. I wanted to cool it in a water bath and open it, biut it exploded right in my hands, and hot and concentrated KMnO4 solution was sprayed all over my body. I was completely soaked and I could smell the cyclohexanone. The walls were completely brown from MnO2. And right after that, you just need some time to realize what just happen. I had thoughts like "Did this just really happen, this can only be a nightmare". I took off my cloths, run ib the shower, and there I saw that the skin on my bally was damaged quite badly. I saw the purple water flowing off my body into the drain. When I was somewhat clean, I got out of the shower, and I have to say, MnO2 gives your skin a really lovely brown shade. Anyway, I just dumped all the sodium bisulfite I had into a bucket, filled it with water and tried to clean everything. The SO2 smell was pretty horrific. I also threw some sodium sulfite into a bathtube to dissolve it in the water and take a bath in it, so all the MNO2 goes off. There I noticed my skin burning. It was a really terrifying experience, I can recall the moment the bottle exploded, and thinking about it makes be shudder >_<. The smell of cyclohexanone will always remind me of this accident. Luckly, I got away with no injuries besides a few wounds on my belly.

Ans I stopped with energetics some time ago, because many little accidents just made me more and more paranoid about them.
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Yamato71
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[*] posted on 5-11-2017 at 10:57


Well, another year gone and I'm hanging in there. I'll update when I get a little more time.
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[*] posted on 21-5-2018 at 16:07


nonlinear reaction times/heat generation seem to be the big issue in this thread.


This is why I like addition funnels, magnetic stirrers and glassware with either vents or stoppers

i also say I really dislike this fireking guy. kinda wish he tripped a bit closer to the device he made, maybe got some in his eyes

[Edited on 22-5-2018 by coppercone]
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MJ101
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 11:07


@Yamato71: Your story made the hairs on my neck stand up.

Even though I don't know you, I'm glad you survived and I hope you're feeling better.

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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 11:32


Messing about with pyrotechnics is fun, but bloody dangerous.

Many years ago (back in the mid 1980's) I used to do live wargaming (running round woods at 2 AM hitting other people dressed as Gandalf with dye soaked foam covered wooden swords. The madness of youth.....).

At one stage a guy into pyros joined, he provided some rather nice special effects to these games, and became known as 'Brian the Bang'. There was , by todays standards an alarming absence of health and safety. I dont even think he could spell 'health and safety'.

His favorite trick was to leave piles of flash powder around the game area with an untipped cigarette end stuck in the top as a slow fuse. There was never a map made of where these piles were left, and so one day the inevitable happened. Sitting round in a group at the end of a game, 5 AM in the morning, pitch black in the middle of a large woods, he stubbed his cigarette out on the ground, right in the middle of forgotten, unlit pile of flash powder, in which the original 'fuse' had gone out.

He spent 6 weeks with his hand from the wrist down sealed in a plastic bag while all the skin regrew.

Luckily, at 5 AM theres very little traffic about, ambulances can really move....

MORAL: Always keep a map of where the pyros are, and use elctric ignition....
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 11:46


Quote: Originally posted by Agari  
It is a well-known fact that in China,a lot of brands are completely fabricated and BS,that is because fabricating a brand in China would carry serious legal consequences (Either death penalty or imprisonment,I am not familiar with Chinese laws),and so manufacturers find a loophole in that law by making a knockoff brand and replicating the product,which tends to turn out to be of lower quality than the original product. The reason I am telling you that is that you, and I speak to everyone reading this, should always look at the brand markings carefully, and possibly avoid Chinese-manufactured glassware, I don't know whether it is the most likely to be a knockoff or just personal bias or simply hearing about those types of brands more often,but it is better to be safe than dismembered,though it is too late for the OP of this thread.


Interestingly, and on a side note, the medical profession has the same problem with knock off copy surgical instruments, mostly fromn India. The worst problem is with knock off forceps. The real thing are polished to a microscopic scale, whereas the copies are jagged and sharp at microscopic scale, and caused puncture and tear injury to tissues they are clamped on, and peopel have thus died from internal blood loss after surgery.
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 20:01


Quote: Originally posted by coppercone  
i also say I really dislike this fireking guy. kinda wish he tripped a bit closer to the device he made, maybe got some in his eyes

[Edited on 22-5-2018 by coppercone]


Scumbag!
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 20:59


Quote: Originally posted by gnitseretni  
Quote: Originally posted by coppercone  
i also say I really dislike this fireking guy. kinda wish he tripped a bit closer to the device he made, maybe got some in his eyes

[Edited on 22-5-2018 by coppercone]


Scumbag!


I just saw what he wrote. Permanent ban for this piece of shit!
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[*] posted on 10-7-2018 at 21:02


Thanks for highlighting that JohnDoe13. This is not the kind of thing we want on the board.

coppercone, don't do this again.
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[*] posted on 13-7-2018 at 14:46


maybe experimenting with war gasses prohibited for manufacture anywhere in the world on live animals for the purposes of weaponization studies (not that I agree with animal research) should be prohibited on the board?

i mean if you want this place to turn into the pentagon in the 1960s its your choice...


I figured sciencemadness was more of a cute name then a website meant to post some kind of fucked up weapons experiments.

I won't post here anymore tho, peace

[Edited on 13-7-2018 by coppercone]
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[*] posted on 13-7-2018 at 16:54


I was bothered by that post, too... It set off all the alarm bells on my bullsh!t detector, and it's not even very sensitive! Unless pure peroxymonosulfuric acid, triethyl aluminum (or already burning gasoline) count as a "chlorine gas/mustard gas/classified hybrid", there's no way anything would produce those effects on the bird in "minutes". Fake or not, he shouldn't have posted that, though.

Banning is unnecessary, since he registered and made that troll post on the 20th of February, 2015, just about 3.5 years ago. He last logged in a month after that.

Remember: when reading stuff online, your BSD is only slightly less critical than your computer.

Don't be offended, coppercone; that poster was an asshole in any case, and you are right to have noticed this. I think jsum was just discouraging you from publicly posting complaints about users, especially long inactive ones, and also about wishing someone had a debilitating accident. I see no reason why you should stop posting here based on that well-meant warning.

Back on topic... You noticed that many of these accidents essentially had a thermal positive feedback loop. I think that's just a standard feature of energetic materials/explosives. If a bunch of amateur scientists had brutal accidents handling radioactivity, electricity, drugs/poisons, or infectious bacteria, and then posted those, we'd see a different pattern. When handling explosives, heat/energy input is the enemy. With electricity, electrical contact (or short circuits) is the enemy. With other hazardous stuff, leakage and spillage are what is most likely to
hurt you. Of course, there are overlaps. You can be poisoned while making explosives, or have a mild explosion from overheating which leads to a corrosive/toxic spill, or, as the OP suffered, you can have an explosive spill onto a heat source and start the reaction:o. I myself haven't had too many serious science related accidents, besides a few small burns on my hands and a few electric shocks. But this isn't just because I handle very hazardous materials carefully; It's also because I carefully avoid using very hazardous materials, most of the time.

Of course, the more chemistry you do, the more unavoidable it becomes that you'll have to use some scary reagent, and hopefully be able to use it safely.
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