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morganism
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[*] posted on 29-1-2013 at 23:04
synthetic liquor, no hangover


http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2013/01/start/alcoho...



Nutt, DJ, Besson M, Wilson SJ, Dawson JR, Lingford-Hughes AR. Blockade of alcohol's amnestic activity in humans by an alpha5 subtype benzodiazepine receptor inverse agonist [2007] Neuropharmacology 53(7):810-20. Epub 2007 Aug 16
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chemrox
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[*] posted on 30-1-2013 at 22:37


Please request the article in refs.



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[*] posted on 4-4-2013 at 11:54


If this so called "synthetic liquor" is going to be based on benzodiazepines wouldn't that make it a controlled substance for which you would need a prescription? If all they are trying to do is prevent a hangover why not research more into the tertiary alcohols as they are not oxidized into the hangover prone aldehydes.



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[*] posted on 4-4-2013 at 14:02


Personally I've never felt particularly relaxed from drinking. I was prescribed xanax (alprazolam) for some time, and I would never describe the sensation as anything like alcohol. A very mild body "high," almost tingly, certainly no insensitivity to pain. The best description I ever heard, "It doesn't make the pain go away, it just makes you not care." I will say, however, that I am very glad to not have that prescription anymore.
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johansen
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[*] posted on 4-4-2013 at 15:10


LOL, its called lab grade 99% ethanol. I suggest diluting it with something.
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[*] posted on 4-4-2013 at 18:56


Quote: Originally posted by johansen  
LOL, its called lab grade 99% ethanol. I suggest diluting it with something.


Any grade of any percent ethanol will oxidize to acetaldehyde among other things, in turn giving a hangover. This is not proven to be the cause of hangovers but it seems highly likely. Never-the-less lab grade 99% ethanol is no different than 50% in regards to oxidation products. If I were to guess I would think you would have a worse hangover from 99% because more will be oxidized into nasty compounds.




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[*] posted on 4-4-2013 at 19:25


Well most ethanol made for consumption is not very clean, higher alcohols, aldehydes, ketones etc., is what makes you sick. Pure ethanol, lab grade if you wish, or properly made moonshine passed through a pipe filled with activated charcoal at about 50% will not make you as sick as whiskey or any other brown spirit due to above mentioned compounds.

Came over an article once, or more like a personal experiment by a liquor loving organic chemist. He determined the major impurities in whiskey and sampled them in small doses diluted with pure ethanol. Several compounds gave him severe reactions but one of them I still remember, n-amyl alcohol he described as a potent neurotoxin producing all sorts of effects when taken in in the sub ml range.

Anyways, there is no such thing as no hangover from any compound, perhaps the body won't have to deal with loads of oxidation products, but one will eventually, or after a big enough dose, develop addiction and withdrawal. Withdrawal is usually the case after a weekend binge with ethanol, as can be determined experimentally by drinking just a couple of beers and the hangover will disappear.

And I can promise that pure absolute lab grade ethanol gives a better if any hangover, compared to the "store" bought ethanol. Also, avoid mixing alcohol with anything if you want to avoid a hangover, at most with tea or coffee. Drinking chemical cocktails at a bar all night will surly empty your bowels in the night and/or morning.

Also, the problem with tertiary alcohols, like isopropanol is that they are much more powerful than ethanol, don't oxidize and as such will kill you in doses exceeding a few ml.

If hangovers put one off drinking, I doubt other compounds will do any better, with the exception of perhaps kavalactones, to which I had no effects the following day.




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[*] posted on 4-4-2013 at 20:07


Very good information bahamuth I do have a question though. Is the oxidation product of ethanol not acetaldehyde? Wouldn't store bought drinking ethanol oxidise to the same product as lab grade ethanol? I'm not talking about the impurities in such just the ethanol. The reason I say pure ethanol would give worse hangover is because the concentration will be higher like 2 ounces of 50% = 1 ounce of 100%. So if the same amount is consumed not relative to percentage it would be worse.



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[*] posted on 4-4-2013 at 20:37


Morganism, is this is something that interests you, I would definitely suggest looking into tertiary alcohols.

http://www.tert-amylalcohol.com/
Safety - http://www.toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:...

Synth reagents sees a little tricky to get tho.


[Edited on 5-4-2013 by Finnnicus]




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[*] posted on 5-4-2013 at 03:38


Quote: Originally posted by chemcam  
Very good information bahamuth I do have a question though. Is the oxidation product of ethanol not acetaldehyde? Wouldn't store bought drinking ethanol oxidise to the same product as lab grade ethanol? I'm not talking about the impurities in such just the ethanol. The reason I say pure ethanol would give worse hangover is because the concentration will be higher like 2 ounces of 50% = 1 ounce of 100%. So if the same amount is consumed not relative to percentage it would be worse.


Well true, but remember that we humans, at least the white European, has a lot of gene copies of enzymes to handle the large load of ethanol from consumption. Therefore we have a better ability to handle ethanol -> acetaldehyde and converting it into acetal radicals going directly into the Krebs cycle as energy.

So in reality it is the effectiveness of ones genes, together with how smooth the cells operate e.g. how healthy and hydrated one is that determines if one will get sick from the acetaldehyde. Some races of humans do not possess that many copies of the different genes handling alcohol and as such they may get drunker faster, be drunk longer, and get more and worse hangovers.

I doubt there is "any" hangover from acetaldehyde, never got any headache from breathing the fumes of it, and after years of experience drinking, as other here on the forum as well might testify to, is that aged or highly oxidized liquors like whiskey, with natural brown color, plus spiced liquors like gin will give you bad hangovers due to the impurities.

If you want to test out a hangover, try breathing/smelling small amounts of iso-butanol (I'm pretty sure it was this butanol, slight chance it was sec-butanol as this was many years ago), this stuff will first intoxicate you slightly from just smelling the compound, and then the headaches kick in, like the worst hangover of your life, and it it lasts beyond work hours, at least in me. Beware though, this stuff readily goes through your skin and might work better than intended...




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[*] posted on 5-4-2013 at 05:44


From my experience mixing juice in college, it was the sugars that made everyone feel terrible the next day, which makes sense to me because I've always felt that red wine was the worst hangover. I used everclear (95% ethanol), not quite lab grade, but certainly no aged liquor. Lots of cheap fruit punch and lemonade mix though, and when less mix was used in a particular batch, people had less of a hangover.
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hyfalcon
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[*] posted on 5-4-2013 at 06:04


Since your body tries to metabolize alcohol into sugars I'm not surprised that when there is an excess of sugar in your system it would delay the body's ability to metabolize the alcohol.
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[*] posted on 5-4-2013 at 08:23


Quote: Originally posted by paw_20  
From my experience mixing juice in college, it was the sugars that made everyone feel terrible the next day, which makes sense to me because I've always felt that red wine was the worst hangover. I used everclear (95% ethanol), not quite lab grade, but certainly no aged liquor. Lots of cheap fruit punch and lemonade mix though, and when less mix was used in a particular batch, people had less of a hangover.


I side with you on that one. Mixing with very sweet soda, like Fanta Exotic is just begging for a killer hangover...

Since everything will act as a poison when ingested in to large amounts it isn't strange that when one consumes in excess of hundreds of grams of sugar together with hundreds of grams of ethanol one gets overloaded somehow.

Strangely enough I have an insane tolerance for rum, especially the ones from Havana Club, not a bit of hangover the next day other than an excessive thirst and hunger, which I get every time I drink.

Also, red wine (the better ones) doesn't give me any after effects either, but el-cheapo red wine is like drinking cooling fluid for the body in my case, explosive vomiting and all that in the late hours...

But what are we talking about here really, drinking 700ml+ of 45% whiskey or a bottle of wine? In my above mentioned cases I usually drink in excess of 1400ml red wine (in social fora) before I'm satisfied but not brain dead drunk and usually up for more, or 500-700ml 50% vodka/moonshine when I really want to get piss drunk, or get the nerve to talk to all the pretty girls (by the way, the girls aren't impressed by ones ability to down large amounts of poison....:P).

Also, where is OP in all this, or is OP only looking for synthetics? If so there are a lot better alternatives with year long "safe" track records than some new benzodiazepine derivative to get "drunk" on. And as David Nutt claims in the short news article, it is a safe alternative i seriously doubt, as people sometimes wants to get really really drunk and exceeds the dosages several-fold to achieve this, would it be safe anymore? I'd rather do a "drug" like ethanol since the dosages, onset, duration etc. is usually very "easy to control" since the relative volume is so big. Also not to mention the taste, a really good red wine matched with some tender wild game beef prepared the right way, is there really anything better.. Even an aged whiskey/rum in a quiet dark setting between friends will bring a whole number of different taste sensations as one is sipping it down slowly. Can you imagine a party where everybody just takes pill and slurps down energy drinks to keep awake and hydrated would be like, I can imagine it would be like a tweaker drug fest or something along those lines.

I'll choose my Italian red wine anytime over a pill or a "dissolvable film"!




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[*] posted on 5-4-2013 at 14:15


Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth  
Also, the problem with tertiary alcohols, like isopropanol...


::Groan::




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[*] posted on 5-4-2013 at 21:13


Quote: Originally posted by BromicAcid  
Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth  
Also, the problem with tertiary alcohols, like isopropanol...


::Groan::


Sorry, an idiotic mistake, I bow to my fellow fora members including BromicAcid pointing this out.

But the statement still stand, though IPA is not a tertiary alcohol. It is much more potent than ethanol, and those data may be found online or in books. And still more, tert-alcohols are often extremes in potency compared to ethanol (getting intoxicated that is), and also may be found online or in books. I might edit the post another time to add refs but it's Friday and like 07:30 in the morning here right now so it is a no no.....



[Edited on 6-4-2013 by bahamuth]




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[*] posted on 8-5-2013 at 23:03


In college a friend gave me 1l of "200 proof" ethanol cleaner from a state that sold it, oregon. I still have the bottle some where. It was for cleaning stainless steel food processing equipment. The hang over was VERY minimal. This was anhydrous, not denatured, pure ethanol. 3/4 of a standard shot got ya plowed for 45min and then gave me back my wits regularly. I savored the bottle for a few weeks and never felt any where near a whiskey H.O.

I also regularly drank everclear (75.5% legal in California) and those H.O's were likewise much more tolerable than the sugary bar mixed drinks popular in a college town. In fact most clear liquors w/ low sugar content seem to treat me well. I liked a good double gin and gin w/ a double gin back( full glass of gin complete w/ humor)

The same could not be said of my drinking companions. To me it seems sugar, health and genes ( like mentioned by others above) make it hard to apply rules to all people. Drink wisely ( the alc didn't help chem finals any )

*the bottle was labeld as 200 proof, not just my terminology. It had a usp label and directions to not consume though. Really odd to have label like a drink, medicine and a cleaner no?

[Edited on 9-5-2013 by violet sin]
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[*] posted on 9-5-2013 at 03:23


isopropanol oxidysing to acetone, not very fun to drink.
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[*] posted on 11-5-2013 at 16:03


Quote: Originally posted by violet sin  
In college a friend gave me 1l of "200 proof" ethanol cleaner from a state that sold it, oregon. I still have the bottle some where.


Hmm, I have lived in Oregon my whole life and never have heard of such a thing. Can you be specific on the label? Or is this from the year 1920?

<75% is what I have seen here.




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[*] posted on 12-5-2013 at 16:42


I picked up some Everclear at a duty free shop on the border of Montana and Alberta. If memory serves me right, which it may not after consuming it, it was ~97%.

I don't recall any real hangover, but ... yeah. I do remember have a sore throat from trying it straight.

It was on my way into Alberta. Didn't see any coming back.
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[*] posted on 30-5-2013 at 04:51


I'm all for alcohol in a pill with no hang over, and less side-effects. Though I've never done GHB I think it's rather unfortunate that it is illegal because of a handful of idiots that used it to rape people (alcohol is used to rape people very frequently). Especially considering this drug works on the same freaking receptors that GHB, benzodiazepines, GABA, & acytl-CoA does. Out of the ones I just listed GHB has the most positive benefits such as regular sleep schedule control (controls insomnia), human growth hormone stimulation, more deep sleep, helps depression, can be used recreationally like alcohol, and it's healthier.

I highly doubt this new drug will be anything more than a scheduled substance for sale on the black market without any merit to do so.

On to the subject of secondary, and tertiary alcohols. I remember at some point a few years ago I stumbled upon a thread on bluelight where people had been taking, and recording results of the various alcohols. Such as 2-methyl-2-butanol ect.. This is not metabolized into actyl-CoA (no hangover), it is 1000x (verify?) stronger than ethanol, and has less side-effects.
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[*] posted on 8-6-2013 at 08:48


I'm Hammilton at bluelight. Anyway, I don't believe tert-amyl alcohol is 1000x stronger than ethanol.

It is much better than ethanol though, and produces almost no hangover.

1-ethynyl-1-cyclohexanol is another good one, derived from the carbamate sedative. I'm a little leary of the inhibition of liver enzymes but I don't think it's a major concern if you're not combining it with a bunch of other drugs.

I think if you strip off the carbamate residues from meprobamate or carisoprodol you're left with an active alcohol
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[*] posted on 8-6-2013 at 16:00


chemcam: the bottle looked a lot like this one but the label was screenprinted on the clear bottle in black ink. I went to my storage and looked through some boxes at home also but can't locate MY bottle for now. guess it was more like a half liter. hope this helps. If I find it I will post the pic so you can see the manufacturer etc.
-Violet Sin-

200 proof.png - 128kB
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[*] posted on 8-6-2013 at 16:45


If you were hardcore you could drink ethyl ether. I have heard it described as "400 proof".
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[*] posted on 8-6-2013 at 17:43


Not trying to sound hard core, but for most everclear is more than fine. Though on diethy ether,, I tasted it once and tried inhaling 2 or 3 times. Not for me. The sweet smell wasn't verry nice concentrated. I couldn't stand it enough to feel any thing. I would not Reccomend any student pocketing a vial as I did for home use. It all ended up evaporating off over the years.
I was a bit of a mess in college. Did a lot of stupid things. I don't think drinking a bit of everclear or the 200 proof was stupid ( daily overindulger) so I was good on that. But I am glad that I didn't know then What i now know. Over eager under cautious, I would have got in a lot of trouble with the bullet proof mentality.
Had I kept my whits about me I may have actually finished school instead of having a ton of unused units and no degree. Hard to keep down a job and get good marks while in a prepetual haze. Haven't drank in over a year n a half and life is much better!
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[*] posted on 30-3-2021 at 23:56


I suggest bacardi.that stuff is pretty clean.
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