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Author: Subject: Looking over the border: EU-Regulations
BJ68
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[*] posted on 31-1-2013 at 05:54
Looking over the border: EU-Regulations


For now people in the US will not be affected by a EU Regulation which became effective at 15/01/2013.

It has the title "Marketing and use of explosives precursors" and you can find the Englisch Text at:

Marketing and use of explosives precursors

So the possession, use, preparation of some chemicals is forbidden for the general public, if the chemical exceed a concentration limit and you don´t have the approval (permit) from the authorities:

-Hydrogen peroxide 12%
-Nitric acid 3%
-Potassium and Sodium chlorate and perchlorate 40%
-Nitromethane 30%

Other chemicals are on the watch list:

See Annex II


This EU-Regulation has to be implemented in local (German, Austrian, French and so forth) law.....


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neptunium
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[*] posted on 31-1-2013 at 07:00


H2O2 12% is availlable freely in beauty supply store its the 40 volume clairoxide easy to concentrate...
HNO3 is easy to get over 98% from nitrates and sulfuric acide conc.

this is getting ridiculous! when is this suppose to be in effect in the US?




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BJ68
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[*] posted on 31-1-2013 at 07:18


Quote: Originally posted by neptunium  
H2O2 12% is availlable freely in beauty supply store its the 40 volume clairoxide easy to concentrate...
HNO3 is easy to get over 98% from nitrates and sulfuric acide conc.

this is getting ridiculous! when is this suppose to be in effect in the US?



So far I know, there is no attempt to make the same in the US.....

Sorry, but I can not call it ridiculous, because these chemicals are then at the same level as drug precursors where you need a permit for buying, preparing.
So if you concentrate or make such things (without permit) and you get caught....you will be prosecuted and punished. Your equipment and chemicals will be sized and you have to pay a fine.....

If you try to get a permit, the authorities can make statutory provisions which can be expensive.....e.g. safety cabinet.
So they can reduce the amount of people which are using this stuff and be at the legal side...

Edit:
If you are a Law Abiding Citizen and you get no permit for private use, you have a problem.....and if you have other permits for example a gun license then your problem will be greater.....

Bj68


[Edited on 31-1-2013 by BJ68]
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neptunium
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[*] posted on 31-1-2013 at 08:51


although i agree with you , i must add that blindly following the law has proven desatrous in the past .
critical thinking and self responsability have become very rare, in theory and in a perfect world it would be a great step toward public safety.
unfortunately we dont live in such a world .
blunt, ridgid and exclusives laws and regulations are poorly adapted and will never fit a complex society full of complex individuals.
we must defend our freedom and our liberty there is a price to pay for that . I am willing to accept and compromise a little bit of my safety in exchange
for a lot of freedom...isnt that what the founding fathers had in mind? or am i terribly misguided?




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[*] posted on 31-1-2013 at 11:32


So, according to the legislation I can buy those things provided that I can demonstrate a legitimate use for them.
Not a problem.
Not relevant anyway, most of them are currently for sale on eBay.
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[*] posted on 31-1-2013 at 22:31


Quote: Originally posted by unionised  
So, according to the legislation I can buy those things provided that I can demonstrate a legitimate use for them.
Not a problem.
Not relevant anyway, most of them are currently for sale on eBay.


Sorry, there is a little difference.....the authorities have to check if your legitimate use is allowed and than you get a permit for using the chemicals with higher concentrations.

Do you think that for a local authority it is enough if you say for expample: I need nitric acid with 53%, because I want to get copper in solution?
Do you think you would get a permit to buy and use nitric acid for that or can it be that the authorities think it is a self-serving declaration and deny the permit?
Or if the give you the permit, they say okay, but proof us, that you have a fume hood, a safety cabinet for storage, connections to a company which manages your chemical waste and so on?

Do you really think that this shit is not relevant anyway?

Have a nice dream and I hope your dream came true, but my feelings are more of a nightmare.....


Bj68


Edit: I see you live in the UK

So do you get as a private person with a hobby chemistry lab a license for buying category 1 substances according to the Precursor chemical domestic licensing list http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/drugs/licensing/precursors-chem... if you can demonstrate a legitimate use?




[Edited on 1-2-2013 by BJ68]

[Edited on 1-2-2013 by BJ68]
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[*] posted on 31-1-2013 at 23:05


Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  
-Nitric acid 3%

This is just ridiculous. We should not need a permit for everything. I am tired of the chemophobia (the EU has a phobia of plenty of other things too)

Just one more reason to leave the EU.
I am disgusted by all these frustrating regulations. Our freedom is being flushed down the drain, gradually. I think there are far more than enough regulations already.

Bureaucrats want to keep making more laws and regulations to solve alleged problems, without looking back at all the inconvenience and expense caused by the regulations they have already made.




I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying lets remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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[*] posted on 1-2-2013 at 03:26


Isn't oxygen a big 'precursor' to explosives, I mean practically all explosives contain a lot of oxygen... they might have to ban that too... oh yeah and nitrogen, a lot of explosives have nitrogen in them. Consider air can easily be turned into nitric acid they might have to regulate the air.

[Edited on 1-2-2013 by Nickbb]

[Edited on 1-2-2013 by Nickbb]
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[*] posted on 3-2-2013 at 06:45


The 3% concentration limit for nitric acid is just ridiculous. I don't think you even can make any explosives with dilute nitric acid. What about all the legitimate purposes of nitric acid? Do you have to get a permit to etch some copper, refine gold, test coins and jewellery for precious metals, etc?
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[*] posted on 3-2-2013 at 23:02


Quote: Originally posted by weiming1998  
What about all the legitimate purposes of nitric acid? Do you have to get a permit to etch some copper, refine gold, test coins and jewellery for precious metals, etc?



If you are a general member of the public (in German "Privatperson") then yes, you will need a permit in the future here in the EU.

And I have doubts if you get the license very easy if I read that:

1. Each Member State which issues licences to members of the general public with a legitimate interest to acquire, introduce, possess or use restricted explosives precursors shall lay down rules for granting the licence provided for in Article 4(2) and (6) . When considering whether to grant a licence, the competent authority of the Member State shall take into account all relevant circumstances and, in particular, the legitimacy of the intended use of the substance. The licence shall be refused if there are reasonable grounds for doubting the legitimacy of the intended use or the intentions of the user to use it for a legitimate purpose . 2. The competent authority may choose how to limit the validity of the licence, through permitting single or multiple use for a period not exceeding three years. The competent authority may oblige the license holder to demonstrate, until the designated expiry of the licence, that the conditions under which the licence was granted are still fulfilled. The licence shall mention the restricted explosives precursors in respect of which it is issued .

Additionally the draft mentioned the extension of this "shit" to professional user, too:
(c) the desirability and feasibility of extending the scope of this Regulation to cover professional users, taking into account the burdens imposed on economic operators and having regard to the objective of this Regulation;

So there is really a need to stand up and take actions against it....

According to more and more restrictions e.g. "Skull and crossbones for nitric acid" http://www.bfr.bund.de/en/press_information/2012/09/skull_an... people which are interested in natural sciences, experiments have founded the IVNT http://ivnt.de/ (Side is in German) to try to make a little bit of counterpressure and coordinate some action.

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[*] posted on 4-2-2013 at 00:22


Quote: Originally posted by AndersHoveland  
Just one more reason to leave the EU.
I am disgusted by all these frustrating regulations. Our freedom is being flushed down the drain, gradually. I think there are far more than enough regulations already.

Bureaucrats want to keep making more laws and regulations to solve alleged problems, without looking back at all the inconvenience and expense caused by the regulations they have already made.


Norway, where I reside is "not" (see, I put not in quotation marks........) yet in the EU but we comply to everything with nothing to say, and we do it with such spineless pride... Anyways, there will not be any place to "go" to do these amateur sciences like the ones discussed at this forum in a few years, even the institutions will be restricted in doing research, especially fundamental research, since one have big problems accounting for the use of chemicals in such areas, something I have felt myself at my previous institution.

Only way things are going to get "free-er" is if technology is going mainstream, as the trend is showing with bio-hacking, 3D printing etc. and that may very well be the reason for all these regulations.

Additionally I am tempted to go a little "tinfoil hat" on these things as it seems the governments are afraid that knowledge and the means to explore them will be freely accessible to the general public, and as such the creation of such regulations.
We can see the regulation trend in all aspects of our lives, from restricting the internet to building houses (regulations have made housebuilding in Norway almost impossible to do for a private person due to the insanely increased costs of keeping up with all the new idiotic regulations) and I wonder why; these regulations rarely if ever benefit the general public.

IMO these regulations are a part of a disguise to impose control over the people, by imposing micro-laws so that everyone is guilty of something, by targeting the "thinking" part of the population it seems.


Just my thoughts when I read this thread...





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[*] posted on 4-2-2013 at 12:23


So it has yet to be implemented by the separate member
states... what's the time line?




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[*] posted on 4-2-2013 at 23:04


Quote: Originally posted by hiperion42  
So it has yet to be implemented by the separate member
states... what's the time line?



a) According to this Link Procedure file it´s waiting for publication in Official Journal.

b) That means if it is published here Official Journal of the European Union

c) Then this Regulation will enter into force on the twentieth day following that of its publication in the Official Journal of the European Union .

d) But the Regulation shall apply from 18 months after the date of entry into force.

e) The important point:
The possession and use by members of the general public of restricted explosives precursors shall be allowed until 36 months after the date of entry into force of this Regulation.

So the member states have 18 months to make local laws, work out the SOP´s (e.g. which authority will grant the permits, how high are fees and so on) where it may have some possibilities to take action or have some influence on it.
The dead line or sunset-date is 3 years after the entry into force date.....than you need a permit to own this kind of chemicals....

So the question is: Is it possible to make a coalition over the borders to get influence at that topic or even try it?

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[*] posted on 5-2-2013 at 00:35


Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  
So the question is: Is it possible to make a coalition over the borders to get influence at that topic or even try it?


You planning a fight with the EU? Forget about it, unless you have a billionaire benefactor hiring the best lawyers on the planet to fight for you. Can you imagine all the red tape you would have to cut through, it would be a full time job for the whole period for several people. These bureaucrats will not listen at all, since there is no legitimate reason why the reality TV watching public should ever be able to get these chemicals at high conc. in question.

Or what are you proposing? If it has any merit I'll try to help...

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[*] posted on 5-2-2013 at 00:53


Thanks.
It can be argued that western civil liberties where
a produce of the oil age. With all the energy and
abundance it was for the top class more workable
to let trickle down a tiny bit of the produce to the lower classes.
It provided the illusion and kept them in check.
Now that conventional oil production has peaked
going forward less and less energy will be available.
To compensate the trickle down has to stop.
The bailouts were a heist in plain sight.
Good old ransacking brigandry.
They just took it.

[Edited on 5-2-2013 by hiperion42]




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BJ68
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[*] posted on 5-2-2013 at 01:53


Quote: Originally posted by bahamuth  


You planning a fight with the EU? Forget about it, unless you have a billionaire benefactor hiring the best lawyers on the planet to fight for you. Can you imagine all the red tape you would have to cut through, it would be a full time job for the whole period for several people. These bureaucrats will not listen at all, since there is no legitimate reason why the reality TV watching public should ever be able to get these chemicals at high conc. in question.

Or what are you proposing? If it has any merit I'll try to help...

bahamuth



I agree with you that fighting the EU will be a full time job and you will fight against wind mills, like Don Quixote.

But where I see a possibility (even this may be tiny) to change something, is the fact that this regulation as to be implemented in local laws and rules and that laws or rules can be influenced from people. It makes a difference if you don´t have a permit and this is only a administrative offence like wrong parking or it´s felony like selling 1 kg of diacetylmorphine.
The other thing is, that rules has to be worked out....are you allowed to use potassium chlorate for the "Gummy Bear Hell" Gummy Bear Hell or to use nitric acid for etching copper plates and so on?
What´s about the old stock? Do they really think I should trash or use up my 5 liter of 65% nitric acid, my 500 g Potassiumchlorate, 1 Liter of nitromethane only because they think they can forbid the possession of that stuff?
Are we all little children, which have to ask our nanny for permission to use or even own this kind of chemicals?

Clear that would be much work....you have to write to the authorities, politicians and argue like crazy and you know that most of the argumentation is for nothing.....but somebody who is not fighting has lost the battle before beginning.

There are now so much people involved from this...so it should be possible to get some public resistance against it together.

Bj68





[Edited on 5-2-2013 by BJ68]
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[*] posted on 19-2-2013 at 23:19


Now we have a Date:

Article 16
Transitional provision
The possession and use by members of the general public of restricted explosives precursors shall be allowed until 2 March 2016.



http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2...


Bj68

[Edited on 20-2-2013 by BJ68]
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[*] posted on 20-2-2013 at 01:11


It appears some member states may be allowed to make higher concentrations available to the general public without a license but the seller must register the purchase and the higher concentrations aren't much better at least for MeNO2 & HNO3.

Article 4
Quote:

3. Notwithstanding paragraphs 1 and 2, a Member State may maintain or establish a registration regime allowing the following restricted explosives precursors to be made available to, or to be possessed or used by, members of the general public if the economic operator who makes them available registers each transaction in accordance with the detailed arrangements laid down in Article 8:

(a) hydrogen peroxide (CAS RN 7722-84-1) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 35 % w/w;

(b) nitromethane (CAS RN 75-52-5) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 40 % w/w;

(c) nitric acid (CAS RN 7697-37-2) in concentrations higher than the limit value set out in Annex I, but no higher than 10 % w/w.



There are several farming products over here that contain >20% HNO3, I guess they are going to have to reformulate them all, will they be as effective though?

Looks like I will have to construct a hidden stash for these chemicals... It's a bloody nuisance.
As if this will stop anyone determined with nefarious intent from making explosives.
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[*] posted on 20-2-2013 at 13:29


Ordinary people with over 10% HNO3
can't have that!

As a flock we must dive orderly and well behaved into
the ravine...




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[*] posted on 20-2-2013 at 14:25


The interesting question would be, if you apply for a permit and the permit is denied, what will happen with your data?

Do you get then a nice visit from the police, with a search warrant or are you only reported to the authorities and there have to be other additional suspicions to get a visit form the police?

Bj68
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[*] posted on 21-2-2013 at 01:40


ahh yes! endless possibilities! :cool:





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[*] posted on 30-4-2013 at 12:09


I am not sure how this will work.
I use hydrogen peroxide as a brewery wash down.
A splash of 35% in a bucket plus water. Chuck it in the hot liquor tank, mash tun, boiler, fermenters and then rinse.
It also goes through the pumps and pipes.
It leaves no residue, it is pH neutral and it breaks down to oxygen and water in my soakaway.
Lots of dairies and small food processors do the same.
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[*] posted on 13-7-2013 at 08:36
new EU threat to 'chemistry'


http://pyrogarage.pl/end.htm

i came by this as i was to check relative prices between salicylic acid and sodium benzoate

ive read most parts of the link and it sounds like theyre preparing to have a massive snitch-union
also making it nearly impossible to import interesting substances from third world countries or even such as poland

at least read quickly through it, it doesnt sound like a little something-something this time
HNO3 to be limited to only 3% maximum available to the public, thats insanely low

some of you on here might also have looked into the legitimacy of the always overhanging 'terror threat' and find this even more absurb with that background knowledge




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[*] posted on 13-7-2013 at 12:17


the article says that after 2016 hobbyists become criminals, and recommends stockpiling the items that will be banned.

it is my belief that that is the incorrect approach.

instead of accepting that you will be made a criminal, you should lobby the government strongly, to consider your hobbyist use as civil.
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[*] posted on 13-7-2013 at 14:48


This is a very bad story. But it's true. This is intensively discussed e.g. at versuchschemie.de (german chemistry forum). The worst thing: even the possession of > 3% HNO3 is prohibited after 2016! You will have to apply for permission before you can possess, handle, buy or store certain substances (also chlorates, etc.). Even the deadliest chemicals are legal to possess until now, afaik (even if they are forbidden to buy). But this is a new dimension of restrictions for hobby chemists.

[Edited on 13-7-2013 by Pok]
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