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Herr Haber
International Hazard
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Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston  |
No, that is a good description of what is was like in the past. Every amateur chemist becomes good at sourcing chemicals from OTC sources like this.
Nitrates could indeed be bought readily if you knew what they were used for. I have known about the availability of nitrite and nitrate as meat
preservative for a long time, and would probably have been able to buy significant quantities without questions if I had wanted to.
Now these last sources are drying up too.
Pure nitrates are very quickly becoming unobtainium here. An interest in making sausages at home is not enough to get a permit.
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Well... I guess I'm gonna go shopping tomorrow  It's not as cheap as some other
sources being foood additive quality but.... getting some for days to come seems like a good idea.
Edit: Ohh, I *fed up the coding again 
[Edited on 23-3-2016 by Herr Haber]
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BJ68
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Do it and buy stocks, because:
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3) Substances proposed for addition into Annex I Sulphuric acid in concentration of 40 % w/w or higher (United Kingdom) (transfer from Annex II)
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Source:
http://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regexpert/index.cfm?do=grou...
http://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regexpert/index.cfm?do=grou...
Bj68
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Magpie
lab constructor
Posts: 5939
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Mood: Chemistry: the subtle science.
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According to the 2nd reference above sale of chicken and pig manures will become illegal in Europe: manure
The single most important condition for a successful synthesis is good mixing - Nicodem
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BJ68
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Not illegal, but the sale will be watched and monitored. Suspicious transactions have to be reported...
The term "shit police" will then have a new sound.....
Bj68
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Mabus
Wiki Master
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So, it has come to this... banning shit.
EU is just wonderful
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aga
Forum Drunkard
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Erm, the EU is not what you may think.
It is supposed to be all the same kind of place, yet it is not, and never ever could be.
UK, Holland, Germany, France tend to apply EU rulings as if it was the Word of God.
Other more wily EU member-states apply the rulings to the letter of the EU law without actually doing anything at all.
The EU is simply some odd dream which only works because Germany hands out loads of free money.
It will end one day, probably soon.
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Mabus
Wiki Master
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
Erm, the EU is not what you may think.
It is supposed to be all the same kind of place, yet it is not, and never ever could be.
UK, Holland, Germany, France tend to apply EU rulings as if it was the Word of God.
Other more wily EU member-states apply the rulings to the letter of the EU law without actually doing anything at all.
The EU is simply some odd dream which only works because Germany hands out loads of free money.
It will end one day, probably soon. |
I know what EU is, I live in it
What bothers me is the EU has decided to go the nanny state way and most decisions they take lack any form of critical thinking, it's like they refuse
listen to reason. So for all their talks about "better Europe", "multiculturalism", how their politics are supposed to be better, etc. etc. etc., they
are nothing more than the average sleazy politician, except unlike the latter, they're in a different power position.
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BJ68
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| Quote: Originally posted by aga |
Other more wily EU member-states apply the rulings to the letter of the EU law without actually doing anything at all. |
Would be nice, but is not true:
List of measures to implement Regulation (EU) 98/2013 on explosives precursors in the EU/EEA
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/cri...
Interesting page:
http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/cri...
Bj68
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macckone
International Hazard
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Home chemists can still make nirtic acid from air and electricity. Glycerine is unlikely to be outlawed. Plaster of paris and salt can be used to
make quick lime, sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide with sufficient application of heat and knowledge. Urea and quicklime can make
ammonia. Toluene is a major component of gasoline. Sugar and yeast can yield ethanol. Acetic acid can be made from ethanol. Baking soda is not
getting outlawed. Dry distillation of wood yield many by products. Just because you have to make low level reagents doesn't mean you can't do
chemistry.
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woelen
Super Administrator
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All these things you say may be true, but let's be realistic. A young person (let's say 15 years old) with an interest in chemistry very soon will be
put off if he/she is not able to find even the most basic reagents anymore in shops locally. Such persons do not make nitric acid by passing arcs
through air, or making sulphuric acid from basic materials and a lot of heat. Such endeavors require considerable engineering and having acceptable
yields requires large scale setups. People must be REALLY devoted to do all these difficult things.
When I was a boy of 16 years old, I made Cl2, NO2, small rockets, little pyrotechnic mixes, metal mirrors, nice crystals, all with materials I could
buy at a hardware store, supermarket, and a few items required buying things at a drugstore or pharmacy. It was those things which sparked my interest
for the rest of my life. Young people of e.g. 2020 will have no such options anymore and I expect a sharp decline of home chemistry in the next two
decades and following that, a sharp decline in quality of professional chemistry and probably even science in general, simply because young people are
put off.
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aga
Forum Drunkard
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Prevented is more likely.
As with all Repression methods, this will simply push it all Underground.
Emerging amateur chemists will find nothing interesting to do in the Legal arena, yet plenty of OC and EM possible if they align with a criminal
organisation.
Recrystallise table salt if you pass an exam/have a permit,
OR (with lots of $ as well) freely make crystal meth, TNT, Nitroglycerine, TATP - whatever you like.
it would be an, erm, unusual youth that chose the salt.
Repression invariably leads to an excess of that (thing:implied)* you wish to repress.
May as well ban Sex or Breathing - people always find a way, because they want to do the things that they want to do.
Edit:
*reading the post i noticed that the sentence would be a very difficult case for me if it was written like that in Spanish or German, and not all
readers speak perfect English (including some native English speakers ...)
[Edited on 26-3-2016 by aga]
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macckone
International Hazard
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Before 1900 if you wanted chemicals you made them from raw materials. Many kids explored chemistry back then. Some like edison got in trouble with
it. Things like sulfur and salt peter where more available than the sulfuric acid we take for granted.
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BJ68
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Got a few new sources:
1. | Quote: | Sweden presented its proposal to add magnesium nitrate hexahydrate (CAS RN 13446-18-9) to Annex II. The main use of this substance is in the form of
fertilisers, by professionals. Other known uses by the public are for making ceramics and in printing, but the impact on the supply chain and
consumers is expected to be low.
There were no major objections to the proposed amendment, but the ensuing discussion extended to other nitrates, including calcium nitrate
tetrahydrate, and to nitrogenous fertilisers as a whole:
Two alternative measures were also discussed, which would consist in (a) adding 'fertilizers with nitrogen content from nitrate equal or higher
than 8 % by weight' or (b) adding 'nitrogenous (solid and liquid) fertilizers with nitrogen (N) content equal or higher than 3% by weight', both as a
group of substances, to Annex II. These two alternative measures have already been discussed in previous SCP meetings1 without reaching consensus. DG
HOME will check whether groups of substances, as opposed to individual substances, can be the subject of delegated acts.
Participants also noted that the inclusion of calcium nitrate in Annex II, as opposed to including calcium nitrate tetrahydrate, could be regarded
as an error, since the tetrahydrate is the form used for fertilizers. DG HOME will check whether the CAS number could be changed as a correction.
In addition, some participants noted that, ideally, all hydrate forms of all the listed nitrate salts should be covered in the Regulation's scope,
since chemical conversions between them are in principle possible. |
2. | Quote: | The Netherlands presented its proposal to add the following metal powders to Annex II:
Aluminium and alloys thereof with a particle size less than 200 μm (CAS RN 7429-90-5) [in concentration of 70 % w/w or higher]
Magnesium and alloys thereof with a particle size less than 200 μm (CAS RN 7439-95-4) [in concentration of 70 % w/w or higher]
Magnalium and alloys thereof with a particle size less than 200 μm (CAS RN 7429-90-5, 7439-95-4) [in concentration of 70 % w/w or higher]
In the ensuing discussion, Denmark noted that it already restricts the marketing and use of metal powders (over 70 % w/w) and that it has not
experienced any problems in doing so. The main consumer products identified were some types of paints and pyrotechnic articles. The latter articles
are however explicitly exempted from the scope of the Regulation3.
There were no objections to the proposed amendment, but some suggested that magnalium, being itself an alloy of the other two substances, should not
be added to Annex II. |
look at https://www.wko.at/Content.Node/Interessenvertretung/Umwelt-...
3. | Quote: | 3) Substances proposed for addition into Annex I
The United Kingdom presented its proposal to transfer Sulphuric acid (in concentration of 40 % w/w or higher) into Annex I. This amendment can only be
introduced via the adoption by the Commission of a legislative proposal. The main consumer products identified were some drain cleaner products in
niche markets where the number of sales are very low.
In the ensuing discussion, Denmark and Sweden noted that they already restrict sulphuric acid over specific concentrations, and that they have not
experienced any problems in doing so.
Sulphuric acid is scheduled under the Drug Precursors Regulation. It is subject to the reporting of suspicious transactions in that context, to export
authorisations to third countries in some instances, and to a registration requirement also in some instances4.
DG HOME |
from
http://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regexpert/index.cfm?do=grou...
http://ec.europa.eu/transparency/regexpert/index.cfm?do=grou...
New Development in Germany:
There is a bill from "BÜNDNIS 90/DIE GRÜNEN" which suggests that for the Annex I (within the allowed concentrations, which are legal for the public)
and for the Annex II Substances there should be maximum quantities for selling to individuals put in force. That could mean for example that if you go
to the DIY market you will get only one liter of acetone. Additionally they make pressure for an new extra law, which should put the 98/2013
regulation in force in Germany. They complain that the regulations of the 98/2013 are not enough and should be tightened more.
Here the PDF of this bill in German:
http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/18/076/1807654.pdf
For me it´s within the bounds of possibility, that this German issue will backfire to the EU and may tighten the regulation itself (at EU level) or
even in other countries the local law.
So if somebody is interested in further informations, which should not be public shared, because they are confidentially and there are discussions
over strategies, people are invited to join the board at https://ivntforum.phoerauf.de/
Please if you want, write me a PM with your pseudonym, because I have to activate every user. Reason for that, is that at a other forum we had
disguised readers from authorities and I will try to avoid this.
The board mentioned above is until now mostly in German, but it should be no problem to switch to English.
Thank you
Bj68
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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7976
Registered: 20-8-2005
Location: Netherlands
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From one of my suppliers I heard that in NL we get new regulations about so-called "zeer zorgwekkende stoffen". These are compounds which raise great
concerns. Private use of such compounds should be forbidden or at least strongly regulated in the near future. At the moment some suppliers are
implementing these new regulations already. Some examples of "zeer zorgwekkende stoffen" are:
- Hydrochloric acid 30%
- Sulphuric acid 96%
- Nitric acid (also covered by other regulation 98/2013)
- Na/K/NH4-dichromate
- Na/K/NH4-chromate
- CrO3
- nickel salts (exempted: nickel metal in bulk state)
- cobalt salts (exempted: cobalt in alloys)
- lead salts (exempted: lead metal in bulk state)
- mercury and its compounds
- cadmium and its compounds
- arsenic and its compounds
- borates and derived compounds
- a whole bunch of chlorinated hydrocarbons
- hydrazine and derived compounds/salts
Some of these compounds are on the list because of toxicity, others because of corroriveness, yet others because of extreme flammability, or being
oxidizer. The list I post here is far from complete, there are many many more.
For instance, a dutch supplier, called Labshop, which sells to private persons, already put most of its compounds on the list and this means that
these compounds cannot be purchased anymore, unless you are a company and have a legitimate use for these compounds.
I do not know where these regulations come from, but if I read the links posted above, then it looks similar to the REACH stuff posted by BJ68. I have
the impression though that the dutch list of "zeer zorgwekkende stoffen" contains many more compounds than whatever list I have seen before and that
the dutch government recently has become much more active in suppressing the diversion of these compounds in the general public.
Official recent info from dutch government from 4-4-2016: http://www.rivm.nl/rvs/Stoffenlijsten/Zeer_Zorgwekkende_Stof...
There are lists on the website (right part). Some lists are proposals.
Up until recently I was inclined to say that in the Netherlands things were quite OK from an amateur's point of view. Things were not available on
every corner in the street, but there was quite some choice of suppliers and nearly everything was allowed as long as you used common sense and did
not have kilos of dangerous compounds in your garage. With some effort you could obtain a lot. But now at a very high rate this freedom is removed and
nearly everything interesting will be prohibited by government. Even basic chemicals like acids and many metal salts will be regulated and may only be
sold to a licensed laboratory. The general public soon will have no pure acids stronger than 10% acetic acid and stronger acids only will be present
in specialist products, such as concrete cleaner, which also will be full of perfume, dyes, surfactants and so on.
[Edited on 8-4-16 by woelen]
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phlogiston
International Hazard
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At this rate, we'll soon have to resort to isolating everything from nature.
Back to the middle ages.
[Edited on 8-4-2016 by phlogiston]
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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Chem Rage
Harmless
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| Quote: Originally posted by phlogiston | At this rate, we'll soon have to resort to isolating everything from nature.
Back to the middle ages.
[Edited on 8-4-2016 by phlogiston] |
I'm off to boil down some aged urine, following in the footseps of many an alchemist 
Seriously though, these overzealous regulations are an abomination. People are being treated by the Nanny State like little kids who can't be trusted
to even boil water without scalding themselves. Those who are intent of harming others, be they terrorists or wannabe acid attackers, will find
alternative means. Druggies will find alternative means of making their illicit brew. Meanwhile, amateur scientists who have no intent on harming
others, who can handle and dispose of chemical reagents in a safe competent and environmentally harmonious manner, and who simply desire to satiate
their passion for scientific curiosity, will find it much harder to obtain even moderately hazardous materials.
It is very wrong to paint everyone with the same brush, which is exactly what these blanket bans and restrictions do. How patronising it is to be
treated like a little kid who needs Nanny State to keep you safe 
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arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1761
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I thought we were screwed here in the US, but now it doesn't seem so bad. I can READILY get "Liquid Fire", NaOH, HCl and just the other day a farmer
friend of mine gave me a five gallon bucket full of NH4NO3. Different farmer let me get a grocery sack full of
(NH4)2SO4 this morning. Already have ten pounds of urea I picked up off the ground from a spill.
Woelen, I feel for ya.
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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Rosco Bodine
Banned
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The increasing "safety" regulations in response to a state security threat, like many other type "social justice" regulations that serve to protect
and enable a "special interest" minority demographic to impose "cultural diversity", are a de facto gradual dhimmitude being inflicted, and imposed
upon a freedom loving european population and western culture, by what is an invading alien culture bent on conquest and enforcement of liberty
destroying totalitarian rule based upon a brutal credo, bearing no resemblance to what is typical western civilization.
Being "diplomatic" and not calling the problem exactly what it is because speaking the truth might "offend" those accountable for the problem that is
an irreconcilable cultural clash, is in effect being a quisling and collaborator with that invading alien culture which would have any factual
criticisms or truthful indictments prohibited being spoken, while rebranding such truthful speech as "hate speech" or some other euphemism for
blasphemy which will be the ultimate implementation of banning free speech that is made "prohibited speech".
I have tried to call attention to the truth of what is occurring and correctly identify the cause of the state security problem that has produced a
need for such oppressive "safety regulations". This "analysis" has become almost an "inside joke" among all the people who know exactly as I do know
also exactly what is the situation....but dare not speak it what is the obvious source of the problem.
People don't speak freely because the enforced dhimmitude has already reached a point of absurdity that to speak the truth about the source of the
problem will be dismissed by all the more politically correct, denying what is unvarnished truth, and calling it instead a revealing of "bigotry" or
"racism" by anyone daring to honestly and correctly identify by straight talk what is the real problem.
Pretending a problem is something else different from what it is, or pretending the problem will go away if only no one dares to speak of it, is a
kind of "tolerance" that has only seen an escalation by an emboldened adversary who correctly identifies such response as weakness and cowardice. A
progression has been occurring as a result and its future destination is clear. Europe not only needs to close its borders to that certain demographic
of "immigrant" that is the problem, but deport all of that same "alien culture" who refuse to assimilate in a western culture they do have an agenda
to replace with their own inferior "brand" destroying all liberty in the process. Around the world the same realization of reality needs to occur and
the "problem" be dealt with accordingly. Free men have a choice between liberty and dhimmitude, and in one way or another for them, making a choice of
the one or the other is unavoidable.
Should the entire world be required to forfeit liberty and make all kinds of concessions for "safety and security" that is really an illusion, or deal
assertively with the source of that threat that is causing a devaluation of liberty and life for nearly everyone? Why should the free world bear the
cost and pay the bill for the criminal acts of a "special class" minority making themselves more expensive to "tolerate" than any advantage that
paying such a price is worth? Doing the cost / benefit analysis there, then what is the bottom line for what makes sense?
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BJ68
Hazard to Others
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@woelen
It seems that the dutch government is now coming up at the same level or restriction like Germany...
| Quote: |
Zeer zorgwekkende stoffen zijn:
• kankerverwekkend (C)
• mutageen (veroorzaakt genetische verandering) (M)
• giftig voor de voortplanting (R)
• persistent, bioaccumulerend en giftig (PBT)
• zeer persistent en zeer bioaccumulerend (vPvB)
• of van soortgelijke zorg
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and
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Criteria De stoffen op de volgende sheets zijn geselecteerd op basis van de volgende Europese wetgeving en verdragen:
• stoffen in de EU-GHS Verordening EG 1272/2008 geclassificeerd als C, M, of R categorie 1A of 1B (CLP A VI)
• stoffen op de kandidaatslijst voor REACH Annex XIV (bijvoorbeeld PBT/vPvB) (XIV CL)
• gelijkwaardige zorg stoffen in de POP Verordening EG 850/2004 (EU-POP)
• prioritair gevaarlijke stoffen in de Kaderrichtlijn Water 2000/60/EG (KRW-PHS)
• stoffen op de OSPAR lijst voor prioritaire actie (OSPAR) Ook zijn enkele stoffen opgenomen die al onder de Nederlandse Emissierichtlijn Lucht
(NeR) als minimalisatieverplichte stof (MVP) of extreem risicovolle stof (ERS) waren geïdentificeerd, maar niet in bovenstaande wetten of
verdragen voorkomen.
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Source: http://www.rivm.nl/rvs/dsresource?type=pdf&disposition=i...
That means now
a) Restriction of CMR-Substances
b) Restrictions on Substances of the Authorisation List (Annex XIV)
http://echa.europa.eu/addressing-chemicals-of-concern/author...
c) Restrictions even on the substances at the candiate list http://echa.europa.eu/web/guest/candidate-list-table
That are substances where the decision if they will put in Annex XIV is pending...
d) Restrictions on persistent organic pollutants
http://www.kemi.se/en/directly-to/rules-and-regulations/addi...
e) Water protection
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLE...
f) Water protection Part 2:
OSPAR List
http://www.ospar.org/work-areas/hasec/chemicals/possible-con...
They are now revoking the recent law and preparing new regulations...
Bj68
[Edited on 8-4-2016 by BJ68]
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arkoma
Redneck Overlord
Posts: 1761
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what is the deal with borates? Heck, here in redneckville a lot of folks I know use 20 Mule Team Borax to wash clothes.
"We believe the knowledge and cultural heritage of mankind should be accessible to all people around the world, regardless of their wealth, social
status, nationality, citizenship, etc" z-lib
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BJ68
Hazard to Others
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| Quote: Originally posted by arkoma | | what is the deal with borates? Heck, here in redneckville a lot of folks I know use 20 Mule Team Borax to wash clothes. |
They are toxic for reproduction see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21424392
and for the EU that means that they are not more allowed to sell at private users...
You know we in the EU are little children or better toddlers and we will put all powder what we find in our mouth and swallow it, so we have to be
protected.....my blood pressure is rising......
Bj68
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woelen
Super Administrator
Posts: 7976
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Indeed, boric acid, borax and other boron-containing chemicals are banned in NL. Borax suddenly, within a few months, completely disappeared from the
shelves. It always used to be an OTC product in the Netherlands, now you only can obtain it at chemical companies and you need a license. Exactly the
same is true for potassium dichromate and sodium dichromate. They were available as mordants and some pottery shops sold sodium dichromate, but they
cannot be obtained anymore.
These compounds are even more restricted, because the use of these compounds is actually forbidden (not only purchase, but also use of them is
forbidden). No licensing system will be introduced for these chemicals and there is no maximum amount: zero usage! The government is free to add more
compounds to this list of forbidden compounds if they desire so. The list contains all common chromates, all common dichromates, chomium trioxide, but
also compounds like trichloroethylene and other chlorinated hydrocarbons, and also boric acid, borates, perborates, nickel sulfate, nickel chloride,
nickel oxide, cobaltous oxide, cobaltous sulfate and many many more.
In drugstores they tell you that borax cannot be purchased anymore, the product simply is discontinued without explanation. As a borax replacement
they have "eco citrus waspoeder", which means something like eco-friendly washing powder, based on citrus fruits  .
I am afraid that many experiments on my website use one or more compounds, for which use is forbidden in the Netherlands. I read that these new rules
became active at March 21, 2016.
I think the time has come near to stop doing active chemistry. I will try to complete my element collection and maybe I will do some occasional
experiment, but the fun has gone where it is about doing larger experiments and syntheses. What irks me most is that not only sale is prohibited, but
also use. If I write a new webpage and in this webpage I use e.g. potassium dichromate, then I show that I still have that compound and use it and
that is not allowed. Fines can be high (500 euros or more). People having compounds at home from list 14 should bring them to a proper waste
processing facility and have these compounds destroyed in a safe manner. In the Netherlands this can be done without cost. I do not know about other
EU-countries.
I can do many things with the chemicals I still have, but if I cannot share anymore with other people what kind of expeirments I am doing, then the
fun is gone for me. A very important part of my fun in amateur science is writing about it, discussing things, sharing beautiful pictures of
experiments. I do not feel safe anymore about doing that.
In only 5 years time the climate for amateur chemistry has gone from quite relaxed to extremely restrictive. I think the EU will soon be among the
most restrictive areas in the world when it comes to amateur chemistry.
[Edited on 8-4-16 by woelen]
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aga
Forum Drunkard
Posts: 7030
Registered: 25-3-2014
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i just typed a huge number of words saying No ! Do not Stop ! in a nice way.
Something happened and the board said 'Error', which i take to mean that even the SM board software does not want you to stop doing amazing Chemistry.
On behalf of all of the SM membership, We dearly hope you do not restrict what you do because of these new EU laws.
If Publishing is an issue, i feel sure most of us would be willing to help.
[Edited on 8-4-2016 by aga]
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phlogiston
International Hazard
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Woelen, I feel exactly the same way, sad but true. Any fun you get out of it is simply not worth the risk if you have a family and a decent life. I
removed my webpage ages ago for the same reason and felt sad about it, but at least still enjoyed experimenting on a small scale.
I would be content if I could still prepare small amounts of chemicals to do interesting experiments with, but new laws prohibit even possession of
certain chemicals, and the penalties are no joke. Possibly jail, criminal record.
One can be stealthy when doing an experiment, but a webpage advertises your activities and the authorities are not as ignorant as they once were in
that respect. Furthermore, there is always the risk of a burglar breaking into your house and the police visiting to inspect/collect evidence and
accidentally running into the lab.
My profession also involves lab work, but it is no substitute for the joy I got out of doing whatever experiment I personally found interesting.
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"If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down, that's not my concern said Wernher von Braun" - Tom Lehrer |
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S.C. Wack
bibliomaster
Posts: 2419
Registered: 7-5-2004
Location: Cornworld, Central USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Enhanced
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???...the abstract says exactly the opposite...unless the EU is protecting rats from being force-fed boron...
..."The present study was conducted to investigate the reproductive effects of boron exposure in workers employed in boric acid production plant in
Bandirma, Turkey. In order to characterize the external and internal boron exposures, boron was determined in biological samples (blood, urine,
semen), in workplace air, in food, and in water sources. Unfavorable effects of boron exposure on the reproductive toxicity indicators (concentration,
motility, morphology of the sperm cells and blood levels of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), luteinizing hormone (LH), and total testosterone) were
not observed. The mean calculated daily boron exposure (DBE) of the highly exposed group was 14.45 ± 6.57 (3.32-35.62) mg/day. These human exposures
represent worst-case exposure conditions to boric acid/borates in Turkey. These exposure levels are considerably lower than exposures, which have
previously led to reproductive effects in experimental animals. In conclusion, this means that dose levels of boron associated with developmental and
reproductive toxic effects in animals are by far not reachable for humans under conditions of normal handling and use."
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