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Author: Subject: Looking over the border: EU-Regulations
BJ68
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[*] posted on 30-12-2020 at 08:57


Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium  
Still, the restrictions are trivial to circumvent by simply getting a business number. I don't see this as a big deal as in most countries it should be just filling out a single paper. I just guided a couple of friends getting one for their online gaming stuff.


No....read this:
[...]
(11)
The distinction between professional users, to whom it should be possible to make restricted explosives precursors available, and members of the general public, to whom they should not be made available, depends on whether the person intends to use the explosives precursor concerned for purposes connected with that person’s specific trade, business, or profession, including forestry, horticultural and agricultural activity, conducted either on a full-time or part-time basis and not necessarily related to the size of the area of land on which that activity is conducted. Economic operators should therefore not make restricted explosives precursors available either to natural or legal persons who are professionally active in areas in which the specific restricted explosives precursors tend not to be used for professional purposes or to natural or legal persons who are engaged in activities that are not connected to any professional purpose.
[...]

That will change....

bj68
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valeg96
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[*] posted on 30-12-2020 at 09:28


Whatever will be eventually decided to be the procedure to obtain a permit, company number or not, it will most likely, at some point in the process, go through and/or be approved and/or checked and/or recorded and/or archived by some local law enforcement agencies. And this, everyone, is a FACT. We're not talking about a permit to buy chemicals listed as herbicides, we are talking about a permit to build chemicals listed as "explosive precursors".

Getting a license to buy and use explosive precursors in italy is rather easy (with a tough exam) but you're basically submitting all of your information to a commission of police officers, army officers, and chemists/engineers.

By requesting any permit to use explosive precursors you're indirectly putting yourself under the spotlight. Which means your name will be filed, somewhere in our country's archives, along with the words "explosives", "precursors", "person that wants to blow stuff up".

This is what I hate about this approach to problems the EU has chosen. It forces people to submit themselves to checks, permits, exams, trials, to expose yourself to bureucratic and legal trouble, while people who actually want to blow up things and sympathize for ISIS won't be affected by any of this. We all know how a citizen can be made hopeless by any public agency. It just takes a pissy public servant for your documents to be rejected, you can all imagine what a pissy police officer can do when they get your paperwork for such permits.

[Edited on 30-12-2020 by valeg96]

[Edited on 30-12-2020 by valeg96]





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Fyndium
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[*] posted on 30-12-2020 at 18:11


Quote: Originally posted by BJ68  

No....read this:


I'm quite aware of that. The official purpose is of course the stated business entity, for example metal treatment like anodizing, etc. I see the forms to be filled as a reverse instructions how to do things. You answer whatever they want you to answer to get what you want. Fight bureaucracy with their own rules. If you file an insurance report, you first read the instructions(terms of the insurance contract) how to phrase it.

Generally, the best approach to minimize risks of getting listed is to purchase reasonable amounts (like 5-25L, for a company it is more common to purchase 25L canister(s) or 200L drum instead of bottles) at once, and leave it sit for long time, even over years. If someone is watching, they will show up quickly, at most within few months. I have used this approach a couple of times over the years, purchasing a lot of stuff at once, putting them away and waiting over a time if someone comes asking. If one would be doing something that is actually risky, it would be wise to use a middleman for purchases.

Another exception is if some sort of scandal happens, for example after the norway case farmers were raided because of ordinary fertilizer purchases - when something happens, similar stuff must be prevented at all costs to save the face on politics, and then they can go through these lists for any potential risks whatsoever and excuse warrants and other unnecessary legal stuff, so if something hits the news, it's time to check that everything is in order in case of surprise visit.

What I fear in the future is as data processing is getting more and more easier and people's privacy is narrowing, it is much easier to get on some sort of lists of potentially hazardous person, only because of being interested in some sort of non-common thing that can have cross-reference into something that is considered a threat. At the same time, legal powers are constantly increasing so that eventually even studying or possessing mere information can be used as an excuse for warrant or other legal action. If you do anything else except work, eat and watch tv, you can have an unscheduled visit because of something.

I'm not getting into the Orwellian dystopias here, but the general consensus has seem to be in the last decade or two is that basically everything needs to be banned or controlled, and god I hate the concept "ordinary honest people don't need x". There are few if none cases where individual rights, freedoms or privacy have been actually increased. Actually, the spirit has been that saying those three words out loud is starting to sound silly, because no ordinary honest people actually NEED rights, freedoms or privacy.

[Edited on 31-12-2020 by Fyndium]
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[*] posted on 31-12-2020 at 04:33


The most important impact which I see is the new limitation of rights to do scientific experiments / research without registration/accreditation etc. Our opponents can ask "what are those important (for our society) discoveries which were made by individuals in the last 10 years?". But I will ask another question. "Where you will get new scientists in 10-20 years in your county? Are you ready to import those scientists abroad, from the countries which now wisely don't limit selling of H2SO4 and HNO3 for home-scientists? Or would you prefer to buy products/technologies made in other countries?"

[Edited on 31-12-2020 by teodor]
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NaK
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[*] posted on 15-1-2021 at 01:48


Quote: Originally posted by Fyndium  

god I hate the concept "ordinary honest people don't need x".


The most annoying thing about it is that it's not even true! People used to mix their own RC fuel from methanol, nitromethane and oil. Hunters use hydrogen peroxide to bleach antlers. Ordinary people need these chemicals as much as we do

[Edited on 15-1-2021 by NaK]
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Fyndium
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[*] posted on 16-1-2021 at 07:15


Just as it happens, there were huge national headlines how police discovered a potential bomb-maker because he had a couple of these precursors mentioned. I just thought, what kind of headlines it would cause when they bust any long-term amateur chemist, who generally have a stockpile extending far beyond all the way from A to Z.

I'm mostly afraid what happens to that valuable property, does it have any protection from confiscation? Amateur can have several thousands of € worth of equipment, and it all could be gone in a blink of an eye, when they discover you have ordered super-corrosive caustic soda which could do a lot of damage if misused.
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[*] posted on 26-4-2021 at 05:49


Here's another regulation that seems to have gone unnoticed by most of us: Red phosphorus is now a precursor under Regulation (EC) Nr. 273/2004, placed in category 2A alongside acetic anhydride. That means owning, using, buying etc. is still legal, but transactions are limited to 100 g per year (!) without a registration. Now the good part is that it's only a registration, so no governmental approval is necessary. However, at least where I live it costs € 90 and needs to be renewed periodically, and more importantly my usual suppliers don't seem to offer red phosphorus anymore.



Check out my ELN - and feel free to register and host your own lab notebook there!
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[*] posted on 31-5-2021 at 17:55


the war against borax is not new...

https://nexusmagazine.com/?s=boron&v=04c19fa1e772

https://nexusmagazine.com/product/the-borax-conspiracy/?v=04...
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